Official Joker: Folie À Deux Review & Discussion Thread

[Obobo 2,673]

Okay after my third screening I ****ing get it now. This film is so honest in what it's trying to say, that it appears cruel but it's a beautiful message:

Spoiler

Before I get to my point I need to bring up how Arthur is always on camera for interviews and his trial. Joker is a celebrity, this is a HUGE difference from the first film where Joker was a nobody. The most popular scene from Joker 1 was when he killed Franklin Murray on camera, his speech made him the idol for those ignored and outcasted in Gotham and now in real life.

So this is what clicked for me. People are angry that Joker 2 ends with some "random" psycho inmate killing Arthur... I realized that Joker 2 ends the same way as the first. Except, instead of society ignoring Arthur, we have Arthur so focused in his delusions that he ignores all his inmates (except the one that he kissed) -- he's no different than the society he critiques. This "random" psycho inmate definitely had a similar or even crazier upbringing than him. Before the psycho kills him he quotes Arthur's speech from the Franklin Murray show -- except without the sensationalism: no cameras, no screen time, no story, no name -- he's a nobody, as Arthur was in the first. Arthur was no better than the society he blamed, and we aren't as well.

Joker 2 doesn't undo the first film. It reminds us what the whole damn thing was always about. We never really cared about Arthur or Joker. All we cared about was the sensationalism or as Harley says, the fantasy to fill that void in our pathetic lives.

 

[Controversiaga 9,243]

This movie is a skip 

[darkgaga 2,764]

Omg. Most of you are such drama queens. I went today with a friend of mine, and even though there was a bit too much singing, it worked for the plot and for when just words wouldnt say enough. Joaquin and Gaga are such good actors in this film, the cinematography is great. My friend listened to Harlequin and she actually loved how she recognized the songs because of this. 
 

Yes, the plot might be a bit slow sometimes, and editing could have been better, but everyone saying Gaga is underused doenst get the plot. She makes the plot. Without here, Joker wouldnt have came back in Arthur. This was the first movie/series where I didnt see Gaga, even when she played the piano (where I saw Gaga when she did ARUTW in ASIB), and just saw a manipulative psycho. I mean, just the look in her eyes. Jeez. I get they cut the stairs scene, this made it more like she just wants fame because of Joker. 
 

Imo, HOG was way worse 

[rafaelgherardi 726]

23 hours ago, jezze0410 said:

but a few of the musical sequences felt too long; the most successful musical sequences are the ones that are diegetic, i.e. the other characters react in confusion/bemusement as Lee/Arthur busts into song, though I thought two of the fantasy sequences worked quite well too.

yes, I also thought there were too many musical moments... some of them don't make sense at all, but some are great (the waltz and the courtroom delusions are really really great)

the one she sings before going into court, the scene when they're fleeing the prison - so, so pointless

but the one he sings while watching TV, when she sings 'Close to You' to him and when she sings while putting make up on, work fine as well

so I think in general half of the music should have been cut

also, at the end, he saying to her 'stop singing' - how could they not predict the audience would identify with him saying this line hahaha I guess most people also thought 'stop singing' in the movies a few times

[Reality 71,858]

Ok, I got back an hour ago after seeing the movie, and after sitting on it and talking with my brother—who I saw the movie with—here are my thoughts:

It's an okay/good movie. It's not great, but it's not the sh*t storm people are making it out to be. If I had to give a numerical score to it, I'd say a 6-6.5/10. I wouldn't say I'm disappointed with the film, but I think it leaves more to be desired. There's so much I could discuss though. I can't possibly fit everything into this one comment, but I'll try  

Pros:
- Performances: Gaga and Joaquin were fantastic. Joaquin is a fantastic actor, and while I don't think his work here surpasses the first film, it was still incredible to see him reprise the character. Gaga had an amazing performance throughout too, but it's too bad she doesn't get a whole lot. I thought Brendan Gleeson (the main guard) was a standout though  
- Cinematography: There are a lot of beautiful shots in the film, much like the first one. Considering that the entire movie was set either in Arkham or the courthouse, I thought Phillips and Sher (the cinematographer) did an excellent job capturing new ways to film the locations  
- Musical elements: I'm gonna put this in both the "Pros" and "Cons" section  I thought that the musical stuff worked, for the most part. I didn't think they were ham-fisted into the film like many did. The song choices made sense and some of them were well done (e.g., Folie à Deux, For Once in My Life, Bewitched, The Joker, etc.) 

Cons:
- Story: I completely understand what Phillips was doing here. It was a story about celebrity worship, parasocial relationships, idolization, and sensationalism. I appreciate the ideas, the creative swing, and the overall creative direction of the movie. That said, I don't think it was executed well. I like the meta commentary he's trying to say, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't wish this was a Bonnie & Clyde-style movie with surrealist musical sequences instead of what we got  
- Pacing: I liked everything leading up to Arthur's first appearance in court and everything after he dawns the "Joker" suit in court (i.e., the scene where he speaks to Gary); however, the middle dragged on too long. The courtroom drama slows the film down significantly 
- Musical elements: Like I said, the musicals worked for the most part, but I wish they pushed it further. I wanted more elaborate, surreal, and theatrical set pieces. Make the fantasy stuff really exaggerated and stylized. It would've made the film more interesting from a visual perspective and more engaging in terms of the pacing 
- Lack of Gaga/Harley: I'm sorry to say, but yeah, Gaga was done kinda dirty in this film. I like the direction for the character: she's supposed to represent psychotic, parasocial serial killer lovers, and I think that's fascinating. It's a new perspective on Harley that I think it could've been super cool. However, Gaga doesn't get to do much once we get to the courtroom scenes. I want to explore her backstory more, get more solo scenes, and explore the "in-between" scenes with her. Like, we're told that she just randomly breaks into Arthur's cell, get released from Arkham, and talks to the press, but we see none of that 

There's so much I still have to say about the film, good and bad. I liked it more than I didn't, but it didn't live up to the hype and leaves more to be desired. The film's themes are interesting and I like them a lot, but the story and pacing don't do it justice and draw it out. 

And I'll leave it at this: as I said in the beginning, the utter hatred the movie is receiving is insane. It 1000% could've been better in many aspects, but the fact that this has a 32% on Rotten Tomatoes and has a D CinemaScore? That's crazy. I've seen far worse movies, and far worse comic book movies at that. It's truly not that bad.

Oh, final-final note. I'm still glad we got this movie because Harlequin has truly become one of my favorite Gaga albums. At least we have that 

[Reality 71,858]

OH, and in terms of Gaga's movies, this is how I'd rank them:

ASIB > Joker 2 >>>> HoG

[darkgaga 2,764]

14 minutes ago, Reality said:

OH, and in terms of Gaga's movies, this is how I'd rank them:

ASIB > Joker 2 >>>> HoG

100% agree with this

[Oriane 19,772]

10 hours ago, andy232000 said:

We saw Arthur’s descend into madness in the first film, this film needed to be his ascend into sanity, and shredding the Joker persona, not out of disgust, but out of respect and help to those who felt seen and could follow a similar dark path as him. It would’ve fixed everything. Seeing Arthur battle with his internal conflict of “Am I the villain?”, “is Joker me?”, in a much more explicit way would’ve humanized him without humiliating him 

I disagree, he's too far gone in the madness to go back to sanity and you can't just heal like that. Also, the point is that mental illness is not an excuse for using violence and committing crimes against those who did you wrong. You always have a choice, and even if Arthur can't erase what he did, he doesn't have to keep doing this and he can take the first step, which is to feel guilt and remorse over his actions. I do agree that the jump is too quick though, but I think that his need to come as Joker was because he wanted to fight against that feeling inside of him.

[Ayden 100]

I've seen the movie, i loved it. I think it's creative, bold, daring and very dark/depressing. It will not be for everybody. I understand the people who might hate it, it goes to a complete opposite direction from what you might expect.

I appreciate its willingness to be its own unique thing rather than to cater to what the audience's would want. It basically follows the spirit of the first one in that it is a story about a man struggling with his own mental health and not so much about "the Joker" from the comics.

If you were expecting to see Joker and Harley unleashing chaos all over Gotham and going out a killing spree... sorry, this movie will not be for you. However, if you're looking for an interesting character study that serves as a direct response to the reaction of the first Joker movie, then you might get something from it. 

I can see this movie being considered a misunderstood cult classic in a few years from now. For how bold it is, the director and everyone involved should've known already how hard this movie had it to succeed and how harsh the reviews would get, especially considering how entitled the cbm fandom can really be most of the time.

Either way, i celebrate when directors have the guts to present such a bold vision, so unapologetically while offering something unique. We'll probably never see something like this coming from a comic book movie ever again. It's imperfect, audacious, strange, unique... just beautiful. 

[Nite 4,790]

Hm. I talked to a friend (not a Gaga fan) who watched it yesterday and he brought up that the issue couldn't have been Gaga in any shape or form, because no matter what actress could have been in her shoes, nothing would have changed this negative reaction. 

I've been wondering if things would even have been different if - and I know this doesn't make any sense because it's a different universe - Margot had played this version of Harley as well. Basically, if the movie had given the anti-Gaga "Not MY Harley! I want Margot!" people what they wanted and if everything else was the same. I don't think even that would've changed the reception aside from a few incels.

A major problem that left people really annoyed was the marketing, the flip-flopping between musical and not. If you're gonna go that route you have to blatantly do so.

[just another gay 829]

the musical sequence is like dipping toes into the water
songs are too short and chopped into pieces
either go all out on a fantasy music number or no music at all will be better than what they have now
singing as talking is awkward for both musical fans or haters

Edited October 6 by just another gay

[andy232000 9,870]

7 hours ago, Oriane said:

I disagree, he's too far gone in the madness to go back to sanity and you can't just heal like that. Also, the point is that mental illness is not an excuse for using violence and committing crimes against those who did you wrong. You always have a choice, and even if Arthur can't erase what he did, he doesn't have to keep doing this and he can take the first step, which is to feel guilt and remorse over his actions. I do agree that the jump is too quick though, but I think that his need to come as Joker was because he wanted to fight against that feeling inside of him.

If he’s too far gone then there still should’ve been much more resistance whenever someone told him he was sick and acceptance of the Joker persona from him. Arthur spends the entire film laying back smoking a cigarette and waiting for someone to tell him what to do. 

Edited October 6 by andy232000

[elijahfan 24,869]

Ok, after seeing the film a second time, I have to say that my first impression has changed. I really did enjoy it and think this is quite a good sequel. I think what hurt the film most is the misleading marketing. Going into it knowing what to expect, I’ve been able to enjoy it for what it was without being disappointed by what it could’ve been. I suspect the film will be more appreciated in the future.

Edited October 6 by elijahfan

[NarlesLM 497]

18 hours ago, andy232000 said:

Thats exactly the point i would’ve loved for them to make in a much clearer way!! He isn't someone to idolize, but society is a bit dense and I think the script needed to make it more abundantly clear as to why he should not be loved. They spent the first half trying to pass it off as some sort of mental illness, and when Arthur decides he isn’t joker there is no big epiphany nor monologue to drive the point home. 

So basically you saying that Art should be more obvious to Easley digesting? That's not what Art should be honey. It's perfect the way it's 

[OMonster 14,579]

Is FAD better or worse than Joker? 

I just watched Joker for the first time and honestly I thought it was a very impressive film. One of the best films I've ever watched actually. 

I know that Joker was divisive and the fact I loved it makes me think I may also like FAD, despite the negative reviews.