StarstruckIllusion 53,565 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 So I missed Doug and the Obamas, but their marks seem to be sky high, so it seems like I’ll need to go back at watch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartySick 172,545 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 27 minutes ago, faysalaaa said: AOC lied in her speech when she said Kamala is working tirelessly everyday to end the war in Israel. Id rather her not even mention Palestine if shes gonna lie about it. I know everyone wants her to get up there and say "we're ending all arms deliveries to Israel" but that's not a possibility, not reality, and not a thing that should be done anyway considering how many violent groups and governments would take advantage of that weakness to attack and kill Israeli citizens. She and the diplomats in the Biden administration are working to get an agreement both Hamas and Israel will sign. That's the only realistic path forward. The only actual solution. Israel agreed to a ceasefire days ago, Hamas said no because it gave Israel too much control over ports in Gaza. Hamas agreed to return the hostages months ago, Israel said no because they don't want a permanent ceasefire. No matter what, four things remain true: 1) Getting a genocidal government and a terrorist group on the same page is hard as f*ck, even for America's best diplomats 2) The US will never abandon Israel when it's surrounded by common enemies 3) The US will never abandon the idea of building an independent Palestinian state 4) #3 becomes a lie of Trump wins this election Whimsical bitch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
faysalaaa 5,336 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 16 minutes ago, PartySick said: I know everyone wants her to get up there and say "we're ending all arms deliveries to Israel" but that's not a possibility, not reality, and not a thing that should be done anyway considering how many violent groups and governments would take advantage of that weakness to attack and kill Israeli citizens. She and the diplomats in the Biden administration are working to get an agreement both Hamas and Israel will sign. That's the only realistic path forward. The only actual solution. Israel agreed to a ceasefire days ago, Hamas said no because it gave Israel too much control over ports in Gaza. Hamas agreed to return the hostages months ago, Israel said no because they don't want a permanent ceasefire. No matter what, four things remain true: 1) Getting a genocidal government and a terrorist group on the same page is hard as f*ck, even for America's best diplomats 2) The US will never abandon Israel when it's surrounded by common enemies 3) The US will never abandon the idea of building an independent Palestinian state 4) #3 becomes a lie of Trump wins this election America can easily take action by using its leverage to pressure Israel into a real deal (While still supporting Israel). But verbally telling Israel to agree to a deal wont solve the issue and America knows it, its just a verbal back a forth that will go on for decades while people die. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladle Ghoulash 53,159 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 18 minutes ago, faysalaaa said: America can easily take action by using its leverage to pressure Israel into a real deal (While still supporting Israel). But verbally telling Israel to agree to a deal wont solve the issue and America knows it, its just a verbal back a forth that will go on for decades while people die. Biden-Harris is kind of in an unwinnable position re:Israel. The last time Biden proposed a partial embargo in March, Israeli media went fully on offense, claiming Biden was a Hamas supporter and calling him a traitor to Israel; now that they have assurance from Trump that he won’t reign them in at all, if Biden-Harris tried to impose a harsher embargo on Netanyahu to force a ceasefire, not only would he not comply, but he would use the strong arming as “evidence” that their admin is somehow against Israel and try to manipulate public opinion in the US to usher in a second Trump term. Lose-lose. We have forgotten our public MANNERS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
faysalaaa 5,336 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 28 minutes ago, Ladle Ghoulash said: Biden-Harris is kind of in an unwinnable position re:Israel. The last time Biden proposed a partial embargo in March, Israeli media went fully on offense, claiming Biden was a Hamas supporter and calling him a traitor to Israel; now that they have assurance from Trump that he won’t reign them in at all, if Biden-Harris tried to impose a harsher embargo on Netanyahu to force a ceasefire, not only would he not comply, but he would use the strong arming as “evidence” that their admin is somehow against Israel and try to manipulate public opinion in the US to usher in a second Trump term. Lose-lose. None of that would happen, you are just making big assumptions! Trump wont win the presidency if Biden pressures Israel a little bit. Not to mention Biden isnt even running for presidency, so why does he care? But even if you are right and American cant do anything, okay thats fine, but no need for AOC to lie about it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladle Ghoulash 53,159 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 54 minutes ago, faysalaaa said: None of that would happen, you are just making big assumptions! Trump wont win the presidency if Biden pressures Israel a little bit. Not to mention Biden isnt even running for presidency, so why does he care? But even if you are right and American cant do anything, okay thats fine, but no need for AOC to lie about it! “None of that would happen.” A lot of that has literally already happened (re: Israel’s PR stance towards arms embargo and Netanyahu’s explicit preference of Trump’s hands off approach). Did you even read what I wrote? And I explicitly said *Biden-Harris* because we’re both talking about the administration’s policy AND the messaging at the convention (which is, in part, about establishing and reinforcing Harris’ platform); so if Biden signs on to an embargo and Harris and their coalition endorse it at the convention or on the campaign trail, that *absolutely* gives the Israeli far right the opportunity to fuel American right wing oppo messaging about *both* the current admin and potential incoming admin. What’s more, if Israel believes they can help secure a Trump win through that oppo messaging, they will be less motivated to pursue a ceasefire because it goes against their interest and, in doing so, they have the opportunity to make Biden-Harris look both weak and anti-Israel. Also: I know you seem to enjoy mischaracterizing things for reactionary purposes, but you know AOC said “ceasefire and return the hostages,” not necessarily “end the war,” right? Feels like you’re genuinely allergic to arguing in good faith and really love gishgalloping lmao. Wild how much of this comment was spent just disambiguating all of the things you misrepresented. We have forgotten our public MANNERS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
faysalaaa 5,336 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 12 minutes ago, Ladle Ghoulash said: I know you seem to enjoy mischaracterizing things for reactionary purposes, but you know AOC said “ceasefire and return the hostages,” not necessarily “end the war,” right? Feels like you’re genuinely allergic to arguing in good faith and really love gishgalloping lmao. Wild how much of this comment was spent just disambiguating all of the things you misrepresented. Im trying my best to ignore comments attacking me on a personal level. Im done defending myself as it creates more drama and it ruins the vibe of the forum. If thats your opinion of me, I recommend for you to not engage with people like me.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladle Ghoulash 53,159 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 5 minutes ago, faysalaaa said: Im trying my best to ignore comments attacking me on a personal level. Im done defending myself as it creates more drama and it ruins the vibe of the forum. If thats your opinion of me, I recommend for you to not engage with people like me.. Can you at least understand why someone *might* be frustrated when you respond in a way that largely denies or ignores the content of their comment? We have forgotten our public MANNERS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Real Gaga 7,582 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 1 hour ago, faysalaaa said: America can easily take action by using its leverage to pressure Israel into a real deal (While still supporting Israel). But verbally telling Israel to agree to a deal wont solve the issue and America knows it, its just a verbal back a forth that will go on for decades while people die. I agree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladle Ghoulash 53,159 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 Just now, Not The Real Gaga said: I agree. Explain how it would be done “easily.” We have forgotten our public MANNERS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Real Gaga 7,582 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 Just now, Ladle Ghoulash said: Explain how it would be done “easily.” By taking the right actions against a country that has literally admitted they would murder all people they consider the enemy if they had the chance to. Which includes, stop funding and supporting their war crimes, and - maye even - force. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladle Ghoulash 53,159 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 Just now, Not The Real Gaga said: By taking the right actions against a country that has literally admitted they would murder all people they consider the enemy if they had the chance to. Which includes, stop funding and supporting their war crimes, and - maye even - force. Once again, nothing you just described could really be characterized as *easy* in terms of political logistics. Biden literally tried a partial arms embargo and was demonized by all of Israel’s top brass and the majority of the GOP for doing it. The collective will to hold Israel accountable to the extent you described doesn’t exist in the US gov’t on the whole, unfortunately. We have forgotten our public MANNERS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladle Ghoulash 53,159 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 Just now, Not The Real Gaga said: By taking the right actions against a country that has literally admitted they would murder all people they consider the enemy if they had the chance to. Which includes, stop funding and supporting their war crimes, and - maye even - force. Once again, nothing you just described could really be characterized as *easy* in terms of political logistics. Biden literally tried a partial arms embargo and was demonized by all of Israel’s top brass and the majority of the GOP for doing it. The collective will to hold Israel accountable to the extent you described doesn’t exist in the US gov’t on the whole, unfortunately. We have forgotten our public MANNERS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
faysalaaa 5,336 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 Just now, Ladle Ghoulash said: Pretty convenient way to sidestep the argument, but fair enough. Im fine with continuing our argument if you want, but I dont want to engage in drama. Everyone here keeps complaining about me fighting with everyone, so im putting effort to stop that. When I said “None of that would happen”, I meant it wont lead to Trump presidency. Israel and its media has no power over the American election or republicans voters. There is also alot I did not understand in your comment because English is not my first language. Mainly I dont know what oppo and admin means? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
faysalaaa 5,336 Posted August 21, 2024 Share Posted August 21, 2024 2 minutes ago, Ladle Ghoulash said: Once again, nothing you just described could really be characterized as *easy* in terms of political logistics. Biden literally tried a partial arms embargo and was demonized by all of Israel’s top brass and the majority of the GOP for doing it. The collective will to hold Israel accountable to the extent you described doesn’t exist in the US gov’t on the whole, unfortunately. Who cares what other leaders of countries think of you? And the Democrats are demonized for supporting trans and being pro choice, yet they continue supporting these things Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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