French pension reform censure rejected

[Dennis 8,391]

1 minute ago, BBhomemaker said:

The unemployment rate in young people is high, maybe its time to do something ? 

"As for France, the unemployment rate has increased by 1.2 points in one year among those under 25, reaching 17.4% in January 2023. The country is also above the European average and that of the euro zone (14.4%)" 

https://www.touteleurope.eu/economie-et-social/le-taux-de-chomage-des-jeunes-en-europe/amp/

Also maybe unblocking more long term contracts would help as well. 

Well yeah solutions will have to be found. And that's why I don't think it's a good idea to increase taxes on younger people who seem to be already struggling in France? 

I'm just not a fan of the far-right and far-left populist talking points in France. They seem more interested in criticizing than providing solutions.

I think everyone would love nothing more than a solution that pleases at least a majority. And I think political parties who oppose this reform should immediately provide an alternative solution on how to finance the pension system in the future. Let people read the plan and decide for themselves.

[Lucas 31,097]

For the people who say "in other countries it goes up to 70 years old..." Ok so? Why would the french settle for worse? In french we have this nice expression that translated means "if your friend jumped from a bridge, would you do the same?" and it fits quite well here haha

[Guest]

Gosh we are already annoyed enough by strikes and trash in Paris… plz don’t come on Gagadaily.

The retirement system needed to be reformed. This law might definitely not be perfect but it‘s definitely needed if we want to stay economically viable. For those proposing increasing tax on profits from CAC40 companies, that’s a good option to reduce the international competitiveness of French based companies and destroy our economy.

and finally please, I’m not a big fan of Macron but he is not an authoritarian at all. He is using only democratic means that have been used for decades (at higher frequencies).

If only political parties were less reluctant to working and voting together, they would have the opportunity to vote the destitution of borne’s government and cancel the law.

[BBhomemaker 5,611]

28 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Well yeah solutions will have to be found. And that's why I don't think it's a good idea to increase taxes on younger people who seem to be already struggling in France? 

I'm just not a fan of the far-right and far-left populist talking points in France. They seem more interested in criticizing than providing solutions.

I think everyone would love nothing more than a solution that pleases at least a majority. And I think political parties who oppose this reform should immediately provide an alternative solution on how to finance the pension system in the future. Let people read the plan and decide for themselves.

Thats why we are protesting and against what Macron and his government are doing. We do want a reform of our system, we just don't want his reform. But he forces it.

Another issue that i believe many non french people here don't understand is that being against this reform doesn't mean being in favor of the far right or far left, and thats have been the real issue in our country, nobody is actually thinking about what the people wants. Macron's party play on those words "if you are not with us you are encouraging Lepen or Melanchon" Its whats going on rn at the assembly for the vote for the motion of censure. It's also how he won, we know the game, he is not the first one using this argument. But its not the reality, even tho an Anti-macron trend is rising, its all on him, all cause of his behaviour and many occasions he showed nothing but an arrogant and condescendent attitude against french people. Him and his party seems totally disconnected from the people and their concerns.  He closed all talks. 

[BBhomemaker 5,611]

Also it have been proved that this reform plan, wont resolve the deficit issue by 2030 as presented and promised. 
French people are not in denial or confused as some Macron's partisans could say, we understand this reform. That's why we fight even if we don't have the same politic views

[BBhomemaker 5,611]

12 minutes ago, dberrin said:

Gosh we are already annoyed enough by strikes and trash in Paris… plz don’t come on Gagadaily.

Well guess what Mimi, we did. 
 

More than one in two people are supporting the strike. And another big one is coming this Thursdays. I need the public transport in order to work, im directly impacted, yet i understand the mouvement and listen to dustmen's anger. All it shows is that when those people stop working, Paris become a mess. 

[Guillaume Hamon 6,983]

56 minutes ago, Dennis said:

In Switzerland the retirement age is 64 and (65 for men). The increase did happen through a referendum though since Switzerland is a direct democracy.

It's beautiful to trust your own people for such important subjects! Macron should do it imo.

48 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Again, hard to blame Macron, here. In case you didn't know, in France you work for 35 hours only, unlike the rest of the world (and as such smaller tax pool)

 

58 minutes ago, Dennis said:

It's much easier to complain and criticize than provide a solution in this case. But if I had to choose, I'd choose 40-hr workweek. But it seems to be just as deeply unpopular in France? 

The very big majority of people working full time jobs in France do more than 35h a week and that's not recent.

48 minutes ago, Dennis said:

And people currently retire at the age of 62, one of the lowest in the world.

Many will already have to work beyond 62 yo since, aside the retirement age you have a minimal years number to get your full pension.

This one was voted as 43 yrs before and will remain whatever this current reform passes or not. Basically anyone doing a Bachelor degree or more will retire with a full pension at 65 yo at best. And that's only if they had perfectly linear career without any interruptions which is complicated if you're a parent, had health issues, struggles finding a job etc...

48 minutes ago, Dennis said:

The scheme is fully financed by a payroll tax. The french population is ageing, which means more people are entitled to the pension and fewer people are working. How do you fix this deficit? You either increase work hours (up from 35 hours), increase payroll taxes which will disproportionately hurt younger people now, decrease the value of the pensions, or push the retirement age a few years.

Another solution would be to have the government pour money from other sources into this retirement fund, which would add to the budgetary deficit.

How about the option of financing it by stopping the big waste of public money that is a big thing in France? Waste reductions don't add to the budgetary deficit.

And it was said already by @BBhomemaker but the issue with the number of working people (financing ones) getting closer to the one of retired people (beneficiaries) could be helped if they succeed at lowering unemployment with an ACTIVE politics on it.

Just watching similar countries who did what it took to lower their unemployment rate show it's 100% doable if you free the possibilities of entrepreneurs instead of doing what France does now stopping them...

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

Historically, European powers were able to keep many social benefits for their citizens on the back of african colonies.

Long after colonies ends there was no problem financing these programs so that's not what's slowly leading to a lack of budget for it in 2023.

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

There's no magic wand

People are coming with plenty of solutions aside of the examples I mentioned, no one's betting on a miracle.

[BBhomemaker 5,611]

Results : 

The motion of censure has been rejected by 9 votes. 

Its not a surprise for the people, 
It all came down to the republican party, who elaborated a speech against Macron's actions, but still specified not being in favor of the censure  before the vote in front of the assembly.
Out of 61 republicans deputies, 19 voted for the motion (still more deputies than expected). 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, BBhomemaker said:

Well guess what Mimi, we did. 
 

More than one in two people are supporting the strike. And another big one is coming this Thursdays. I need the public transport in order to work, im directly impacted, yet i understand the mouvement and listen to dustmen's anger. All it shows is that when those people stop working, Paris become a mess. 

Of course people don’t want to work more, I can hardly blame them especially if they are not passionate about their job. But please if we want to preserve the advantage we have such as RETIREMENT, unemployment, and other social advantage such as CAF, we need to stay economically viable. 
And then of course it’s going to be a mess if trash is not removed and if public transports don’t work. But it would be an even bigger mess if banker would go on strike, just look at recent bank collapses. It’s not a contest.

[BBhomemaker 5,611]

8 minutes ago, dberrin said:

Of course people don’t want to work more, I can hardly blame them especially if they are not passionate about their job. But please if we want to preserve the advantage we have such as RETIREMENT, unemployment, and other social advantage such as CAF, we need to stay economically viable. 
And then of course it’s going to be a mess if trash is not removed and if public transports don’t work. But it would be an even bigger mess if banker would go on strike, just look at recent bank collapses. It’s not a contest.

Its not about being passionate or not, its about the harshness of labour. And we excatly try to preserve our advantage, thats why we fight and try not end up like some of our neighbours. Once again, its not a 2 way road, it's not the people or the bank, "its not marche ou crève" we have more solutions, we can work on it, if we have the possibility to do so. 

[Guillaume Hamon 6,983]

51 minutes ago, BBhomemaker said:

i believe many non french people here don't understand is that being against this reform doesn't mean being in favor of the far right or far left, and thats have been the real issue in our country, nobody is actually thinking about what the people wants. Macron's party play on those words "if you are not with us you are encouraging Lepen or Melanchon" Its whats going on rn at the assembly for the vote for the motion of censure. It's also how he won, we know the game, he is not the first one using this argument.

Thanks! I'm tired of this continued blackmail "you're a Mélenchon/ Lepen supporter if you oppose Macron" that never made any sense.

25 minutes ago, dberrin said:

But please if we want to preserve the advantage we have such as RETIREMENT, unemployment, and other social advantage such as CAF, we need to stay economically viable. 

Why do folks accept the idea that the only way to effectively balance the HIGHLY wasteful french finances is asking more efforts from people before to do the needed cuts?

52 minutes ago, dberrin said:

For those proposing increasing tax on profits from CAC40 companies, that’s a good option to reduce the international competitiveness of French based companies and destroy our economy.

We talked about personal taxes on the very richest instead of companies benefits taxes.  The very richest are in reality taxed around 2% as shown before which is incredibly low, even compared to others similar "developed" countries. A tiny rise on these would be enough and they would still have a generous taxation.

[Dennis 8,391]

1 hour ago, Guillaume Hamon said:

The very big majority of people working full time jobs in France do more than 35h a week and that's not recent.

I'm sure some people work more than 35h. But on the macro scale, averages is what matters in terms of caclulcating tax revenue for the state etc... According to the Ministry of Labour, the average work hours for employees is 36 hours (source). Still 4 hours below the norm. A switch to 40 hr workweek could theoritically increase revenues by 11%. I don't know if it solves the problem, but it could part of the solution.

But what that also means is that younger people are under more pressure. I just can't believe that people oppose increasing the retirement age by mere 2 years, when the alternatives aren't that great.

1 hour ago, Guillaume Hamon said:

How about the option of financing it by stopping the big waste of public money that is a big thing in France? Waste reductions don't add to the budgetary deficit.

Well you need to crunch the numbers. Did any politicians show you that there are waste reductions that go a long way in covering up this spending hole? Again, I've read about this issue many times, and it seems that the far right and the far left are capitalizing on it to weaken Macron rather than educate the public or offer alternatives. This was going on for years. Why did they not submit competitor proposals? Do you have a link for a serious viable proposal put forth by any politician (other than Mélenchon who's crazy and apparently suggested capping income at 400k yearly in 2017, a measure that would've made investors flee France in droves)

[BBhomemaker 5,611]

19 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I'm sure some people work more than 35h. But on the macro scale, averages is what matters in terms of caclulcating tax revenue for the state etc... According to the Ministry of Labour, the average work hours for employees is 36 hours (source). Still 4 hours below the norm. A switch to 40 hr workweek could theoritically increase revenues by 11%. I don't know if it solves the problem, but it could part of the solution.

35h is for an employee with a complete schedule since 2003 
If the average work hours is 36,9h in 2021 according to the source.. 

Why saying its still below the norm by 4h ? Nowhere in the source they says that the French norm is 40.9h for employees
 

Did i miss something ? 

[Dennis 8,391]

1 minute ago, BBhomemaker said:

Why saying its still below the norm by 4h ? Nowhere in the source they says that the French norm is 40.9h. 

I meant the international norm. 

[Guillaume Hamon 6,983]

2 hours ago, Dennis said:

But what that also means is that younger people are under more pressure.

The opposition to this reform reaches a huge 80% of opposition with folks under 35 yo so it's actually more than with the whole population opposition rate.

2 hours ago, Dennis said:

I just can't believe that people oppose increasing the retirement age by mere 2 years, when the alternatives aren't that great.

If they see waste they want it to be fixed before to be asked an effort, that's not illogical.

How to be sure there's no great alternatives when we tried nothing else?

2 hours ago, Dennis said:

Well you need to crunch the numbers. Did any politicians show you that there are waste reductions that go a long way in covering up this spending hole? Again, I've read about this issue many times, and it seems that the far right and the far left are capitalizing on it to weaken Macron rather than educate the public or offer alternatives. This was going on for years. Why did they not submit competitor proposals? Do you have a link for a serious viable proposal put forth by any politician (other than Mélenchon who's crazy and apparently suggested capping income at 400k yearly in 2017, a measure that would've made investors flee France in droves)

I rather trust The cour des comptes which is the organism that evaluates France finances management in a yearly report than political parties which say stuffs to be elected.

This cour is always blasting governments for billions wasted. Fiscal evasion and benefits frauds aren't really fought against in France and it also costs billions with economic press journalists constantly releasing articles calculating the estimations of many billions that could be saved with it and other wastes such as unprofitable tax loopholes or certain state financial aids that don't meet their original goals... Really it's hard to believe this idea that there's absolutely nothing to even try before therefore this reform being the only way available.

Again we're not here to defend Mélenchon or Lepen. Disagreeing with Macron doesn't mean we back them up. What we try to do is to adapt the current leaders political plan, not waiting for a political messiah who will have the right plan that could eventually get voted. That's like what happened with the yellow jackets movement which led Macron to come up with new bills to correct his plan and add amendments to answer the popular demand. It was fixed right away during the crisis thanks to the popular movement.