Russia loses Mastercard and Visa

[Hyperobject 66,771]

Just now, Melancholia said:

what does the west think this is going to achieve then? are western politicians and businessmen really that stupid?

idk to be honest, but I’m not gonna lie

people will support him even more now. his approval ratings even improved in a last few days. 

[LOVEDRUG 11,288]

Just now, dojo said:

well this is not good at all.

how frustrating is this? are you currently in Russia?

i have relatives currently in russia. my family are originally from eastern europe (czech republic).

people like president zeman in my home country and other leaders in eastern europe, including putin in russia, benefit from sanctions like these as they capitalise on the hardship to gain support.

[Dojo 19,823]

10 minutes ago, Melancholia said:

i have relatives currently in russia. my family are originally from eastern europe (czech republic).

people like president zeman in my home country and other leaders in eastern europe, including putin in russia, benefit from sanctions like these as they capitalise on the hardship to gain support.

in your opinion, what sanctions from the west would be more appropriate and effective at making Putin to (at least) start questioning his original plan towards Ukraine? 

i would like extend this question to @Economy as well, thanks in advance.

[dit 46,738]

20 minutes ago, Melancholia said:

i don't care. this is something that actively affects normal people WAY more than it affects the government. this is disproportionate. we're bogged down now in sanctions that barely affect the government and just **** over an already economically disaparate country, all because most countries love gulping down their lovely natural gas and oil and don't want to do anything to stop that.

The sanctions on Russia are still far less sever then the ones on Iran and no one complains about that. Russia needs to be sanctioned. Applying pressure on regular people is unfortunately a side effect of having terrible leaders. It is also a way to pressure the public to turn on their leader and apply even MORE internal pressure to end this war. If even more regular civilians protest in Russia (more than now) then Putin and the other dictators will likely hault this mess in fear of a revolution and civil war. They will likely not clamp down on millions of civillians staging major protests (even bigger than the ones currently occurring which are relatively small for Russia's population). 

[LOVEDRUG 11,288]

Just now, dojo said:

in your opinion, what sanctions from the west would be more appropriate and effective at making Putin to (at least) start questioning his original plan towards Ukraine? 

it's difficult in reality. trump has proven that. once a reactionary leader has gained a decent amount of support, it's really hard to stamp out their support and get them out of office. the fact alone that trump is still being mentioned for 2024 shows how difficult it is.

but when it comes to sanctions that would really begin to mess with putin would be gas and oil sanctions. they'd damage the russian economy as a whole, and of course, there would be people suffering in the working class, but unlike some of these other sanctions, they'd really hit the government (and upper and middle class too) and would be more likely to make russia actively reconsider their stance. putin has close friends and colleagues who are gas and oil oligarchs.

gas is russia's biggest export. instead of sanctioning the small things that really only affect ordinary people, the world needs to sanction russia's national exports. whilst they'd hurt normal people in the short term due to the economy stuttering, they wouldn't be as pointless as sanctions like these. the current sanctions are basically making people suffer without any end goal.

[LOVEDRUG 11,288]

4 minutes ago, dit said:

The sanctions on Russia are still far less sever then the ones on Iran and no one complains about that. Russia needs to be sanctioned. Applying pressure on regular people is unfortunately a side effect of having terrible leaders. It is also a way to pressure the public to turn on their leader and apply even MORE internal pressure to end this war. If even more regular civilians protest in Russia (more than now) then Putin and the other dictators will likely hault this mess in fear of a revolution and civil war. They will likely not clamp down on millions of civillians staging major protests (even bigger than the ones currently occurring which are relatively small for Russia's population). 

millions of civilians will not stage major protests. putin loves sanctions like the current ones as they currently do not affect him and just make people turn to reactionary politics, like his, to help them. as mentioned elsewhere, i am not opposed to sanctions. i am opposed to sanctions like these which are bordering on completely futile. bigger and more powerful sanctions would actually make a difference. sanctions on the russian state instead of sanctions on russian people.

also, if you think nobody complains about how the west treats iran you'd be foolish. it should be common knowledge that the way the west treats middle eastern countries has repeatedly made conflicts worse.

[dit 46,738]

9 minutes ago, Melancholia said:

i am opposed to sanctions like these which are bordering on completely futile. bigger and more powerful sanctions would actually make a difference. sanctions on the russian state instead of sanctions on russian people.

I see what you are saying but the major sanctions on the state will trickle down to the people regardless so it generally makes little difference. All state based sanctions end up hurting the people more than anyone else. The West has already done targetted sanctions on Putin and his circle ages ago and guess what that did? Nothing at all. No one budged. Sadly, the economy and the peoples' pockets need to hurt so that Putin and the other corrupt elites can hurt as well. It is a sad reality and it hurts to even write it but this is how sanctions work...they got to hurt in order to effect change. Let's just hope that the change can come quickly. 

9 minutes ago, Melancholia said:

also, if you think nobody complains about how the west treats iran you'd be foolish. it should be common knowledge that the way the west treats middle eastern countries has repeatedly made conflicts worse.

Sadly, I don't see that where I'm at. I am Spaniard but live in Canada and in both these nations no one bats an eye. Iran has been under some next level sanctions that even restrict medication, cancer treatments, some food etc...it's inhumane but no one cares. Russia's sanctions are a walk in the park in comparison. Whether we like to admit it or not it seems like to the West it is harder for them to hurt fellow whites than it is to hurt Middle Eastern or Asian people. Not to mention Russia's economy and natural resources are super intertwined so it makes things complicated for sure. Let's hope the West does not sanction essential things and only keeps it economy, banking and some supply based for now and lets hope these sanctions will not do what you mentioned and rally people around Putin but instead get them to dispose of him and the rest of the corrupt ruling elite instead. 

[LOVEDRUG 11,288]

Just now, dit said:

I see what you are saying but the major sanctions on the state will trickle down to the people regardless so it generally makes little difference. All state based sanctions end up hurting the people more than anyone else. The West has already done targetted sanctions on Putin and his circle ages ago and guess what that did? Nothing at all. No one budged. Sadly, the economy and the peoples' pockets need to hurt so that Putin and the other corrupt elites can hurt as well. It is a sad reality and it hurts to even write it but this is how sanctions work...they got to hurt in order to effect change. Let's just hope that the change can come quickly. 

Sadly, I don't see that where I'm at. I am Spaniard but live in Canada and in both these nations no one bats an eye. Iran has been under some next level sanctions that even restrict medication, cancer treatments, some food etc...it's inhumane but no one cares. Russia's sanctions are a walk in the park. Let's hope the West does not sanction essential things and only keeps it economy, banking and some supply based for now and lets hope these sanctions will not do what you mentioned and rally people around Putin but instead get them to dispose of him and the rest of the corrupt ruling elite instead. 

on your first point, i agree. but as i've said, some of the current sanctions in place (microsoft, ikea, mastercard) will barely touch the state. the state can operate regardless. but they affect normal people. that makes the suffering causes by these sanctions pretty much pointless. for example, i doubt the government is going to be affected much by microsoft office no longer being available in russia, they'll just swap to a different software. but for all the businesses, hospitals, students etc. that rely on microsoft office for their daily business, it's gonna make things a whole lot harder. meanwhile, a gas sanction or oil sanction directly affects those at the top. of course it affects people at the bottom too, but unlike other sanctions, it doesn't affect *only* those at the bottom.

and on the second point, it may not be discussed among ordinary people, but as far as i'm aware, it's pretty regularly discussed in geopolitics circles. the taliban's rise, both in 2021 and in the 90s, was the direct result of the west's actions. world war ii was heavily influenced by the west's actions.

i like your optimistic angle but as someone mentioned in a reply to me, putin's approval ratings are already going up. putin can easily twist this as 'do you see what the west is doing to you?', and as from his angle, ukraine represents the west, it'll just increase support for his invasion.

[dit 46,738]

5 minutes ago, Melancholia said:

on your first point, i agree. but as i've said, some of the current sanctions in place (microsoft, ikea, mastercard) will barely touch the state. the state can operate regardless. but they affect normal people. that makes the suffering causes by these sanctions pretty much pointless. for example, i doubt the government is going to be affected much by microsoft office no longer being available in russia, they'll just swap to a different software. but for all the businesses, hospitals, students etc. that rely on microsoft office for their daily business, it's gonna make things a whole lot harder. meanwhile, a gas sanction or oil sanction directly affects those at the top. of course it affects people at the bottom too, but unlike other sanctions, it doesn't affect *only* those at the bottom.

and on the second point, it may not be discussed among ordinary people, but as far as i'm aware, it's pretty regularly discussed in geopolitics circles. the taliban's rise, both in 2021 and in the 90s, was the direct result of the west's actions. world war ii was heavily influenced by the west's actions.

i like your optimistic angle but as someone mentioned in a reply to me, putin's approval ratings are already going up. putin can easily twist this as 'do you see what the west is doing to you?', and as from his angle, ukraine represents the west, it'll just increase support for his invasion.

You bring up good points tbh. Yeah the fact that certain major things like oil and gas have yet to be properly cut out is definitely emboldening Putin because he feels as though he can ride this out. I know it will hurt the West as well to cut those resources out but a temporary hurt is better than letting him retain this much control on what the West can and cannot do all because the leaders are scared of the potentiel economical ramifications. I think they are holding on to those as the trump card but they should lay them out now. 

I know what you mean about things like Microsoft, mastercard etc..only being inconvenient to the people but in a way that's what I'm saying should also happen. The Russian people sadly need to be inconvenienced. I think the West has an idea that if enough Russians feel the burn and that they feel the downgrade in the quality of their lives that they will try to effect change at every cost but sadly as you noted now...Putin's rating are going up. I know in war times it is only normal for people to gather around their leader so maybe that is why his ratings are going up? Perhaps once the inconvenience hits the Russian people more for a longer period then his ratings will fall as well?  But I do believe that these types of sanctions need to be paired up with cutting Russian the oil and gas. I personally believe it is best to hit both the major state level sanctions as well as these civilian based sanctions in order to effect quick change. If we keep doing this slow process of applying one sanction at a time and leaving out the major ones or not doing any sanctions that will make life uneasy on the Russian people then change will not come. 

Post and pre sanctions life in Russia needs to be night and day so that people can notice just how bad things are. Apply every single sanction available (except food and medicine based ones) on Russia immediately because it will bring it to the negotiation table a lot quicker then if we keep only doing one type of sanction at a time in hopes that Russia will concede. It won't. That just buys it time. It may be a little hawkish but it is better than to leave things be as they are right now because it is not working. 

 

[FATCAT 60,896]

3 hours ago, Melancholia said:

i don't care. this is something that actively affects normal people WAY more than it affects the government. this is disproportionate. we're bogged down now in sanctions that barely affect the government and just **** over an already economically disaparate country, all because most countries love gulping down their lovely natural gas and oil and don't want to do anything to stop that.

Disproportionate? Sis Russian soldiers are slaughtering Ukranians. Until NATO starts dropping bombs on Russian soil, there's no comparison. 

[LOVEDRUG 11,288]

10 minutes ago, FATCAT said:

Disproportionate? Sis Russian soldiers are slaughtering Ukranians. Until NATO starts dropping bombs on Russian soil, there's no comparison. 

disproportionate in how it affects the govenment in comparison to how it affects civilians.

[FATCAT 60,896]

7 minutes ago, Melancholia said:

disproportionate in how it affects the govenment in comparison to how it affects civilians.

Russia is bombing civilians.

[LOVEDRUG 11,288]

Just now, FATCAT said:

Russia is bombing civilians.

did i anywhere compare this to what russia is doing in ukraine? no.

putin is a megalomaniac, a psychopath and a despot. if you want to stoop to his level go ahead. use your energy taking out your frustrations on innocent russians in retaliation for innocent ukrainians. it's been made very clear across the board, doing that will not change putin's mind. if he doesn't care about ukrainian civilians, what the hell makes you think he cares about russian civilians?

these kinds of sanctions DO NOT work, and just destabilise regions of the world for decades whilst tyrannical governments are allowed to thive. as i said previously, all because major nations don't want to damage their gas supplies. it's legitimately infuriating how people think individual businesses sanctioning is going to do anything to putin. it won't. it'll just cause more frustration and pain and anger than was necessary at the start.

[FATCAT 60,896]

11 minutes ago, Melancholia said:

did i anywhere compare this to what russia is doing in ukraine? no.

You said disproportionate - too large or too small in comparison with something else. 

[LOVEDRUG 11,288]

Just now, FATCAT said:

You said disproportionate - too large or too small in comparison with something else. 

yes. the affect on ordinary russian people is too large in comparison to the affect on the russian government (it barely affects the government). i clarified that myself in my reply.