HorusRa2 5,005 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, HeavyMetalLover said: Why are you defending them, though? The Republican party and the Trump/Pence administration are rooted in misogyny and sexism. You can’t just ignore that, as you are doing. This isn’t a hypothetical situation I’m arguing. I’m not accusing “every criticism,” but this specific one - which is unsurprising and reminiscent of how Hilary was treated four years ago. It’s the same old crap. You can’t compare the overall sexism and misogyny of the two parties - it’s night and day. They aren't defending them. They are just pointing out that you can't say that Pence interrupting Kamala is only because sexism or misogyny. Candidates of both genders often interrupt one another. I understand that your perception of the republican party is that of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. etc but sometimes it's a simple answer. He interrupted and talked over Kamala and the moderator because he had the mission to save a failing campaign. He had no other choice. Was it also sexism? Probably but it's more nuanced than that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorusRa2 5,005 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 1 hour ago, bionic said: Aside from falling into the same pit as when Kamala went against Tulsi, I don’t think he got better of her no. He may as well have been debating with a brick wall for all the actual interaction with Kampala’s talking points he offered I don't think (personally) that you can say he won the debate for just that one point. Not to mention that he didn't effectively try to tie Kamala to the left and to the extent that he did, it was on the wrong issues. Pence focused on the green new deal more than he should have. If he wanted to get Kamala, he would have went after her on her support of medicare for all which would have been more potent. He obviously didn't because the republicans don't have an answer to healthcare since Obama stole their plan and they had a temper tantrum about it and obstructed from the start of Obamacare (formerly Romneycare which originated from the conservative Heritage foundation). That said, it would have been more effective than telling people that they want to ban fracking when they don't. Pence did decently on trade and that was a win for him I think. Because the reality is that Joe and Trump are basically the same on Trade (Biden's worse bc of NAFTA and the fact that the USMCA is better albeit on the margins). Other than that he dodged a lot of questions and kept saying the same thing republicans always do (lower taxes, remove regulations, unleash entrepreneurial spirit, reduce govt footprint except with regard to religion, etc). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runway 27,876 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 14 minutes ago, Faysalaaa said: Shes the wrong kind of strong woman like Hilary Clinton. You say i sound stupid in the other thread and then come and spew misogynistic crap like this. Yuck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalLover 16 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, Faysalaaa said: Im not defending them, I simply want better arguments and dialogue accusing others of sexism because they criticize a woman. Same tactic was used against the "Bernie Bros" for criticising Hilary and Warren. Im not comparing sexism between the two parties, but the fact is the majority of Democrats are sexist. Does this mean any criticism they have of a woman will be sexist? things are more complicated than this. You need people to state their case better when something is clearly sexist? Or do you need to look at it from a different perspective? It's not just "others" it's the Republican party. You think they deserve the benefit of the doubt here? 3 minutes ago, HorusRa2 said: They aren't defending them. They are just pointing out that you can't say that Pence interrupting Kamala is only because sexism or misogyny. Candidates of both genders often interrupt one another. I understand that your perception of the republican party is that of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. etc but sometimes it's a simple answer. He interrupted and talked over Kamala and the moderator because he had the mission to save a failing campaign. He had no other choice. Was it also sexism? Probably but it's more nuanced than that. I never mentioned anything about Pence interrupting her - I was responding to the Tweet in question that sparked this discussion. It's not just my perception of the Republican party being those things, that's a fact. Don't get it twisted. You're giving them too much credit here - it's really not that nuanced but straight forward and blatant. Again, I never said anything about anyone interrupting. He absolutely had a choice - he went way over his time and was arrogant and disrespectful. Come on. Hold him to some sort of standard. What's with all of this apologetic sentiment towards these people? They're monsters. i don't remember ARTPOP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorusRa2 5,005 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, Runway said: You say i sound stupid in the other thread and then cum and spew misogynistic crap like this. Yuck To be fair, Hillary was a uniquely despised political leader who was always perceived as being corrupt who lost the easiest election in the history of elections to the biggest joke in public life. And Kamala Harris, despite being picked by CNN as the favorite to win the nomination and from all the hype she had no matter what she said by the Media managed to get zero delegates in the entire democratic primary that was not well-liked compared to her competitors. I think the thought is that because for better or worse (right or wrong) women are held to higher standards with regard to qualifications and behavior. It's gross and wrong but that's the framework women have to work in right now and they are the wrong kind of female leaderships because they don't live up to that expectation. I totally agree with the idea that it's gross and unfair but it is what it is until there is a societal shift in this regard. I mean we're all on GGD where we talk about this same thing in music. It's something that is not unique to music and is rampant everywhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 35 minutes ago, Runway said: You say i sound stupid in the other thread and then cum and spew misogynistic crap like this. Yuck ^^^ This comment above is the reason why I criticized people saying Republicans are sexist for not liking Kamala. Because the same tactic is used against us when we criticize Hilary. This guy thinks its sexist to say Hilary is the wrong kind of strong woman. All im saying is being a strong woman is not always a posative thing if that means you are a war criminal. I dont care if "progressives" here think im sexist for saying this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen 30,433 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Faysalaaa said: While I agree its wrong to criticize a black woman based on this because its these stareotyles are often used against black women. Their criticism of Kamala is accurate in my opinion. Yes shes strong but shes also all the things they said about her. Shes the wrong kind of strong woman like Hilary Clinton. I'm not even kidding you reek of misogyny. Women need to be strong, intelligent, well spoken, and confident while also being sweet, nice, polite, and gentle right? They need to be the perfect balance to be taken seriously? Forceful but not too forceful, tough but not too tough, don't raise your voice, don't make faces, you need to smile but NOT like that, not sarcastically! Accept being interrupted but don't you dare interrupt the man. Don't you dare tell the man "excuse me I'm speaking" right? How dare she? That's the WRONG kind of strong woman. Amiright? Give me a ****ing break dude Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 24 minutes ago, Stephen said: I'm not even kidding you reek of misogyny. Women need to be strong, intelligent, well spoken, and confident while also being sweet, nice, polite, and gentle right? They need to be the perfect balance to be taken seriously? Forceful but not too forceful, tough but not too tough, don't raise your voice, don't make faces, you need to smile but NOT like that, not sarcastically! Accept being interrupted but don't you dare interrupt the man. Don't you dare tell the man "excuse me I'm speaking" right? How dare she? That's the WRONG kind of strong woman. Amiright? Give me a ****ing break dude Well yeah I never said any of this, this is just you assuming who I am to justify your accusation of me being a sexist. Women can act however they want, but when they commit crimes in the name of being a strong feminist woman, yes I will criticize you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorusRa2 5,005 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, HeavyMetalLover said: You need people to state their case better when something is clearly sexist? Or do you need to look at it from a different perspective? It's not just "others" it's the Republican party. You think they deserve the benefit of the doubt here? I never mentioned anything about Pence interrupting her - I was responding to the Tweet in question that sparked this discussion. It's not just my perception of the Republican party being those things, that's a fact. Don't get it twisted. You're giving them too much credit here - it's really not that nuanced but straight forward and blatant. Again, I never said anything about anyone interrupting. He absolutely had a choice - he went way over his time and was arrogant and disrespectful. Come on. Hold him to some sort of standard. What's with all of this apologetic sentiment towards these people? They're monsters. Sorry but my comment was more about why voters perceived both of them the way they were. They saw Pence as presidential because by comparison to his team mate he is presidential. My points about his behavior is pointing out that while sexism is a component to how he treated Kamala but it also had to do with the stakes of the debate. With regard to Kamala, my points in the previous post still apply. They saw her in a negative way because of the way our society perceives women. It's not right but that's where we are at this point in time. Also, I'm not saying the republican party policies are not racist, homophobic, etc etc. but what I am saying is that your perception of the party (whether accurate or not) is causing you to see the situation as related to just sexism and it's not. I actually do think that he should have been feisty. I think Kamala should have too. They had a job to do and that was to politically assassinate the other. Neither was successful and to the extent that it didn't happen, it ultimately benefits Biden. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen 30,433 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 The criticism we are talking about was referring to her debate performance, not her record or crimes or whatever else you're trying to use to deflect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalLover 16 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 1 minute ago, HorusRa2 said: Sorry but my comment was more about why voters perceived both of them the way they were. They saw Pence as presidential because by comparison to his team mate he is presidential. My points about his behavior is pointing out that while sexism is a component to how he treated Kamala but it also had to do with the stakes of the debate. With regard to Kamala, my points in the previous post still apply. They saw her in a negative way because of the way our society perceives women. It's not right but that's where we are at this point in time. Also, I'm not saying the republican party policies are not racist, homophobic, etc etc. but what I am saying is that your perception of the party (whether accurate or not) is causing you to see the situation as related to just sexism and it's not. I actually do think that he should have been feisty. I think Kamala should have too. They had a job to do and that was to politically assassinate the other. Neither was successful and to the extent that it didn't happen, it ultimately benefits Biden. I agree with you in the first paragraph. I'm not saying that bigotry in the Republican party is all there is to it - but it underscores everything they do and it's not to be ignored or taken for granted. It is related to sexism - I hope we can both agree on that. I think my perception is pretty based in facts - not sure why that's unclear. This Republican party is bigoted trash. I understand that they have a mission in debating each other. I do also understand how Pence's agenda underscores everything he says or does - same goes with his followers. Do you think at this point you can be a Trump supporter/Republican and not align yourself with the hateful bullshit they have been operating under? It's pretty simple. In specific reference to the terms "abrasive" and "condescending" coming from Fox News viewers - my points stand. I disagree - Kamala found the right balance of hitting him with facts and keeping her composure under his barrage of gaslighting and general lack of respect for her. She did her job and was impressive. As others have stated, I think she was careful not to have a viral moment that could ultimately backfire. She stuck to her mission and slayed. He fumbled and embarrassed himself without really proving anything. I do agree this benefited Biden. i don't remember ARTPOP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorusRa2 5,005 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, HeavyMetalLover said: I agree with you in the first paragraph. I'm not saying that bigotry in the Republican party is all there is to it - but it underscores everything they do and it's not to be ignored or taken for granted. It is related to sexism - I hope we can both agree on that. I think my perception is pretty based in facts - not sure why that's unclear. This Republican party is bigoted trash. I understand that they have a mission in debating each other. I do also understand how Pence's agenda underscores everything he says or does - same goes with his followers. Do you think at this point you can be a Trump supporter/Republican and not align yourself with the hateful bullshit they have been operating under? It's pretty simple. In specific reference to the terms "abrasive" and "condescending" coming from Fox News viewers - my points stand. I disagree - Kamala found the right balance of hitting him with facts and keeping her composure under his barrage of gaslighting and general lack of respect for her. She did her job and was impressive. As others have stated, I think she was careful not to have a viral moment that could ultimately backfire. She stuck to her mission and slayed. He fumbled and embarrassed himself without really proving anything. I do agree this benefited Biden. 1. I'm glad we can agree on that. 2. We do agree that it is related to sexism but I just think that there's more to it. a. it's not unclear b. sure people can. some people choose to vote based off of 1 issue and they may be unrelated to the problematic views of the republican part. voters vote for various reasons and you can't paint every voter as being representative of every view of the republican party. I understand that you can say that they are ignoring the obvious issues with the party views but some people really do ignore that stuff and vote on what they know. 3. I'm not saying Kamala did terrible but I don't agree that she was impressive. I do agree that she didn't give a viral moment that would have been abused but she did have moments where she fell short. Other times she did fine. At the end of the day, we can agree that she did her job in that she prevented Pence from having a devastating blow that would have affected the election. I also want to thank you for being civil and willing to discuss without ugly attacks or being unreasonable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyMetalLover 16 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 9 minutes ago, HorusRa2 said: 1. I'm glad we can agree on that. 2. We do agree that it is related to sexism but I just think that there's more to it. a. it's not unclear b. sure people can. some people choose to vote based off of 1 issue and they may be unrelated to the problematic views of the republican part. voters vote for various reasons and you can't paint every voter as being representative of every view of the republican party. I understand that you can say that they are ignoring the obvious issues with the party views but some people really do ignore that stuff and vote on what they know. 3. I'm not saying Kamala did terrible but I don't agree that she was impressive. I do agree that she didn't give a viral moment that would have been abused but she did have moments where she fell short. Other times she did fine. At the end of the day, we can agree that she did her job in that she prevented Pence from having a devastating blow that would have affected the election. I also want to thank you for being civil and willing to discuss without ugly attacks or being unreasonable. No problem. No need to not be reasonable here. I know that voters pick and choose issues they care about and ones they choose to ignore. The majority of Trump voters have a lot of privilege and can afford to do this. But I think it's unconscionable at this point. And they should be held responsible for choosing to align themselves with this party. And they should know better at this point - there are no excuses anymore. I agree - she did her job and came out just fine. I have been super critical of her and was pleasantly surprised by her performance after going into it with no real expectations. i don't remember ARTPOP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giskardsb 12,565 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 1 hour ago, HorusRa2 said: Pence did decently on trade and that was a win for him I think. Because the reality is that Joe and Trump are basically the same on Trade (Biden's worse bc of NAFTA and the fact that the USMCA is better albeit on the margins). Trump and Bernie are actually very close on trade policy, which is always interesting when Trumpers complain that Bernie is a socialist. Biden is more free trade like many more centrist democrats. Republicans used to be free-trade and something switched somewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giskardsb 12,565 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Faysalaaa said: Shes the wrong kind of strong woman like Hilary Clinton. lets see you explain that statement without sounding like a Mysogynist. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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