Protest against restrictions in Zagreb, Croatia

[Giorno Giovanna 3,178]

5 minutes ago, Florin said:

Your article is old ( april 10), it isnt actually a study. One of the things is says is "there arent any randomized controlled trials on the efficiency of use of masks". Considering this is from april 10, let's say that it is a major red flag that not a single study has appeared on the subject. At least I dont know about it.

I accept that deaths per capita is usually the best way to look at how good or bad a country did with covid, even if there isnt a universal way to count deaths. Every country does it in different ways. 

However, u cant pick and choose countries like that. Why dont u compare Japan with New Zealand or Thailand? What should I say? Japan did worst because of the reason you said it did better than UK? We all can make assumptions like that. It doesnt mean anything.

Of course I can pick and choose countries like that.

There is a significant difference between countries that wear masks almost religiously in public, even before covid was a thing, compare to countries that don't.

Roughly 10 compared to 600 deaths is a huge spike in deaths.

Of course there are more variables at work, everything is extremely complex, there are almost infinitely factors to weight in. But I think this data is enough to convince. 

If masks don't work I see no disadvantage in wearing them, except for them being an annoyance. If they work, well then good to wear one. 

[Bt1 5,213]

17 minutes ago, Giorno Giovanna said:

Of course I can pick and choose countries like that.

There is a significant difference between countries that wear masks almost religiously in public, even before covid was a thing, compare to countries that don't.

Roughly 10 compared to 600 deaths is a huge spike in deaths.

Of course there are more variables at work, everything is extremely complex, there are almost infinitely factors to weight in. But I think this data is enough to convince. 

If masks don't work I see no disadvantage in wearing them, except for them being an annoyance. If they work, well then good to wear one. 

It can basically be anything else, like the fact that Japan and most asian countries are healthier. 

I agree with the last part, but without scientific evidence it probably should remain a choice, like it is in Japan. 

[Giorno Giovanna 3,178]

18 minutes ago, Florin said:

It can basically be anything else, like the fact that Japan and most asian countries are healthier. 

I agree with the last part, but without scientific evidence it probably should remain a choice, like it is in Japan. 

I mean your point is correct, asian countries tend to be healther....so the data does correlate, and correlation is not causality, however what correlate can be causally linked. It needs to be proven, but again....this is incredibly difficult when you look how complex life is and how difficult it is to measure things, especially measure things revolving people.

 

why don't you go and look for data that proofs it? most people don't even bother to try at all. they just go watch a youtube video or some article on facebook etc. 

[Regina George 59,387]

54 minutes ago, Florin said:

Your article is old ( april 10), it isnt actually a study. One of the things is says is "there arent any randomized controlled trials on the efficiency of use of masks". Considering this is from april 10, let's say that it is a major red flag that not a single study has appeared on the subject. At least I dont know about it.

I accept that deaths per capita is usually the best way to look at how good or bad a country did with covid, even if there isnt a universal way to count deaths. Every country does it in different ways. 

However, u cant pick and choose countries like that. Why dont u compare Japan with New Zealand or Thailand? What should I say? Japan did worst because of the reason you said it did better than UK? We all can make assumptions like that. It doesnt mean anything.

Oh, btw. Isnt Japan mostly opened and never had "the rules" we see in US and Europe? 

What are you even talking about? Doctors are using masks for hundreds of years because it CLEARLY helps and stops viruses from spreading. You don’t need specific study to know that (although there are many). That’s basic logic man. 

[Bt1 5,213]

10 minutes ago, Regina George said:

What are you even talking about? Doctors are using masks for hundreds of years because it CLEARLY helps and stops viruses from spreading. You don’t need specific study to know that (although there are many). That’s basic logic man. 

Maybe u should inform yourself a little bit more on the subject instead of using your "basic logic man". At this time, there isnt a peer reviewed study that shows that masks work for covid. That article mentions that. 

Profesional masks can work in a very controlled environment and with precautions and a lot of other rules and other protective gear combined. And that's only for some viruses. The doctors dont just put a mask on and that's all. 

Anyway, maybe u should open a thread about masks and inform yourself a little more on the subject while doing that. 

Maybe we should return to the topic on this thread. In Croatia, masks arent mandatory, so it doesnt have anything to do with this subject.

[Lemonky 671]

1 hour ago, Florin said:

Maybe we should return to the topic on this thread. In Croatia, masks arent mandatory, so it doesnt have anything to do with this subject.

Although you said everything correct about masks, they are mandatory here in public transport, schools, shops etc. But that is not the only point of protest, but policies that do not apply equally to everyone.

[Regina George 59,387]

1 hour ago, Florin said:

Maybe u should inform yourself a little bit more on the subject instead of using your "basic logic man". At this time, there isnt a peer reviewed study that shows that masks work for covid. That article mentions that. 

Profesional masks can work in a very controlled environment and with precautions and a lot of other rules and other protective gear combined. And that's only for some viruses. The doctors dont just put a mask on and that's all. 

Anyway, maybe u should open a thread about masks and inform yourself a little more on the subject while doing that. 

Maybe we should return to the topic on this thread. In Croatia, masks arent mandatory, so it doesnt have anything to do with this subject.

Masks work for every virus. Covid is not different. There are PLENTY of studies! You don’t need them to particularly study COVID when it’s a virus just like any other. Sorry but you don’t look smart rn. 

[Lemonky 671]

Just now, Regina George said:

Masks work for every virus. Covid is not different. There are PLENTY of studies! You don’t need them to particularly study COVID when it’s a virus just like any other. Sorry but you don’t look smart rn. 

https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/

[Giorno Giovanna 3,178]

A long but pretty good read:

Abstract

We review the state of knowledge on the bio-fluid dynamic mechanisms involved in the transmission of the infection from SARS-CoV-2. The relevance of the subject stems from the key role of airborne virus transmission by viral particles released by an infected person via coughing, sneezing, speaking or simply breathing. Speech droplets generated by asymptomatic disease carriers are also considered for their viral load and potential for infection. Proper understanding of the mechanics of the complex processes whereby the two-phase flow emitted by an infected individual disperses into the environment would allow us to infer from first principles the practical rules to be imposed on social distancing and on the use of facial and eye protection, which to date have been adopted on a rather empirical basis. These measures need compelling scientific validation. A deeper understanding of the relevant biological fluid dynamics would also allow us to evaluate the contrasting effects of natural or forced ventilation of environments on the transmission of contagion: the risk decreases as the viral load is diluted by mixing effects but contagion is potentially allowed to reach larger distances from the infected source. To that end, our survey supports the view that a formal assessment of a number of open problems is needed. They are outlined in the discussion.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12210-020-00938-2

 

[Regina George 59,387]

4 minutes ago, Lemonky said:

https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/

Did you read the whole article or only studies that showed masks don’t work? There are contradicting studies in that article. Ones saying it doesn’t work, ones saying it does. Although even some of those that said that masks didn’t work said that masks worked with droplets but not with particles that are transmitted with air SO by that logic masks do lower your chance of getting infected somehow. Can it 100% protect you? No! But do they lower your chance of getting infected? Yes! Also @Giorno Giovanna shared some legit numbers that prove the nations following those measures (that Croatian people are protesting - including wearing masks) have less COVID cases which is more that enough to prove how that gathering is nothing but ignorant propaganda.

[Giorno Giovanna 3,178]

1 minute ago, Regina George said:

Did you read the whole article or only studies that showed masks don’t work? There are contradicting studies in that article. Ones saying it doesn’t work, ones saying it does. Although even some of those that said that masks didn’t work said that masks worked with droplets but not with particles that are transmitted with air SO by that logic masks do lower your chance of getting infected somehow. Can it 100% protect you? No! But do they lower your chance of getting infected? Yes! Also @Giorno Giovanna shared some legit numbers that prove the nations following those measures (that Croatian people are protesting - including wearing masks) have less COVID cases which is more that enough to prove how that gathering is nothing but ignorant propaganda.

Exactly, thank you!

There is indeed contradicting studies, but they are contradicting for different reasons, sometimes different methods, sometimes smaller samples sizes, and more. To get a full picture you need meta-papers that look at a collective of different scientific studies and evulate them as a whole to get closer to the truth and thus the full picture.

The scientific consensus is exactly as you say, that data suggests that measurements in form of wearing masks and social distancing keeps covid infections and deaths significantly lower.

It's still of much importance to understand it better and find out more precisely how it all works and functions.

[Bt1 5,213]

28 minutes ago, Lemonky said:

Although you said everything correct about masks, they are mandatory here in public transport, schools, shops etc. But that is not the only point of protest, but policies that do not apply equally to everyone.

Thank you for this information. That's what I found online. 

[Bt1 5,213]

28 minutes ago, Regina George said:

Masks work for every virus. Covid is not different. There are PLENTY of studies! You don’t need them to particularly study COVID when it’s a virus just like any other. Sorry but you don’t look smart rn. 

Do you know how stupid is what you said?

Have you heard of HIV? Do you think a mask can protect you from that? 

Let's stop this discussion.

[Regina George 59,387]

3 hours ago, Florin said:

Do you know how stupid is what you said?

Have you heard of HIV? Do you think a mask can protect you from that? 

Let's stop this discussion.

The stupidity is too much for me. When talking about viruses- THERE ARE PLENTY of viruses that are transmitted the same way as COVID-19. Mentioning HIV that has no similarity to COVID other than it being a virus is plain ignorant and plain stupid. Take a seat and stop trying to be the smart one.

[Bt1 5,213]

1 hour ago, Regina George said:

The stupidity is too much for me. When talking about viruses- THERE ARE PLENTY of viruses that are transmitted the same way as COVID-19. Mentioning HIV that has no similarity to COVID other than it being a virus is plain ignorant and plain stupid. Take a seat and stop trying to be the smart one.

It is my fault that you said "it protects for all viruses"? 

U talk so much about the stupidity of others and yet u are the one who failed to give the scientific evidence for any of your "facts" in so many comments. 

But whatever. Let's end this stupid conversation.