UofCali Repeals Proposition Against Favoritism&Restores Affirmative Action

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Nino said:

You can teach anybody with an acceptable SAT score virtually anything taught in any undergrad program.

Your clearly anti semitic OP's perspective assumes that the delta between "competence" in individuals would remain after graduating. The point of a university is to turn young adults into competent professionals. Assuming 2 people work hard and graduate with a bachelor's degree, it wouldn't matter what their SAT score was. A lot of the first year of any undergrad program is reiterating high school material anyway.

Agreed. Just a side note: You can make good points and good arguments without the name-calling.

[Nino 12]

2 hours ago, ModernXTC said:

Agreed. Just a side note: You can make good points and good arguments without the name-calling.

I wasnt namecalling. The original post in this thread said that jews are overrepresented in positions of power. That's always been an unproven claim of anti semitic groups. You can accidentally make anti semite arguments by accident without being a nazi. However, later in this thread he went on a factually untrue tirade about how jews have controlled the world since medieval times, one of the most oppressive times in history for Jewish people in Europe. So even if it was name calling he proved the worst true. 

[Monster647 444]

On 6/17/2020 at 1:24 PM, Nino said:

I wasnt namecalling. The original post in this thread said that jews are overrepresented in positions of power. That's always been an unproven claim of anti semitic groups. You can accidentally make anti semite arguments by accident without being a nazi. However, later in this thread he went on a factually untrue tirade about how jews have controlled the world since medieval times, one of the most oppressive times in history for Jewish people in Europe. So even if it was name calling he proved the worst true. 

Be a rational person and accept that you're wrong once. Jesus...  I did not say jews controlled the world. I definitely did not say that jews controlled the world since medieval times. 

I said that Ashkenazi Jews are over-represented  in positions of power and success. Do you know what over-represented means ? For instance, Jews are only 0.2% of world population but over 20% of nobel prize winners. That's what over-represented means. And yes, Jews are over-represented in positions of power and success. That's factually correct.

Medieval history of Ashkenazi Jews is the context in which most hypothesis as to why Askhenazi Jews are much more cognitively capable than other ethnic groups are set. That's what I referred to. One theory is that since Jews were banned from jobs such as Farming as heathens, they adopted more cognitively challenging jobs such as banking and trading which resulted in higher IQs among Jews through centuries long adaption. 

This is what I said again (copy-pasted): 

Based on what are you saying that I'm anti-semitic ? I am not anti-semitic in anyway.

Ashkenazi Jews have significantly higher IQ than average which is the reason why Ashkenazi Jews are significantly over-represented in Nobel Laureates and positions of power. This is literally a fact. If you knew medieval history of Ashkenazi Jews, you would easily figure out the reasons for this too. 

To be specific, average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is about 0.5 to 1 standard deviation (7.5 to 15 points) higher than American average but since IQ always has normal distribution for a general population, this results in Ashkenazi Jews' significant over-representation among highly gifted people. 

EDIT: If your mind does still not comprehend this properly, I am actually saying that Jews are factually smarter hence this results in Jews being more successful than average 

[Monster647 444]

On 6/16/2020 at 9:29 PM, CautiousLurker said:

You are the one who made the claim that factual evidence exists - you back it up

Why is a paper, not even that, an article from 1998 relevant today? Where are up-to-date numbers... Also this is about test scores, I asked you to provide evidence of affirmative action impacting American society...

Btw, one of the authors deemed a thesis that linked IQ and race worthy of a phd - hmmmm

This is one school - again, this does not back your claim that it decreases 'the competence'

Is this all you've got? The first article didn't even link any sources  

I back everything I say up. You spectacularly failed in backing anything up though. There are proofs to every single one of the stats shared in that article because it was just a short barebone excerpt from a huge block of text.... . A quick minimally intellectually curious google search would also prove that to you. 

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/9780815746096_chapter1.pdf

An article from 1998 is very relevant because today's academia is very biased when it comes to researching anything related to ethnicities but it's far from being the only source that makes the same point.
Also, article makes very solid points that are relevant today because all the inferences are drawn comparatively, it compares how the stuff has changes since desegregation.
For instance, it debunks that SAT is culturally biased. How ? Since desegragation, black kids are catching up white kids faster in verbal section of SAT than math sections. If SAT was culturally biased as claimed, black kids would be unable to catch up faster in verbal sections. 
Also the article does not tie IQ into race. It doesn't explain or refer to a causality. It refers to a correlation that can be caused by many things like culture. And that's a fact nobody can deny. 

https://youtu.be/j3lZe2OTBfQ?t=576
In this lecture, you can see that when you do regression testing(just wiki what it is, not a difficult concept) on 3 influencers of SAT scores (family education, family income, underrepresented minority status 'urm' - which means black and latino-), you'd see 'urm' that estimates SAT scores at a higher rate than even the other 2. This means if you control the data for socioeconomic status, black kids still perform worse academically than white kids. Although I am a little sceptical of how they exactly managed to isolate urm status as a variant from family education and income but the result is clear if we accept the premise that their method is not faulty. It's also evident that there is a substantial correlation between IQ and sat/act scores . (http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/koening2008.pdf) 

In a grand context, this is supposed to explain that you cannot have equal black representation (having equal % of black students to their % of population) in University because due to whatever the reasons are, Black Americans are not simply not there. If you want to play the policymaker, find the reasons. 
Did you try giving equal representation to whites in NBA ? That will decrease the competence in NBA drastically. 
Also Chinese Americans and Jewish Americans get more representation in universities. Number of them that go to university is higher than whites compared to their share of population. Do you want to put quotas to put them on a disadvantage ? That's not fair, they deserve it. You cannot superficially manipulate these things. It's unfair to individuals who have rights beyond the group identities while being damaging to the competence within society. 

[Nino 12]

7 hours ago, Monster647 said:

Be a rational person and accept that you're wrong once. Jesus...  I did not say jews controlled the world. I definitely did not say that jews controlled the world since medieval times. 

I said that Ashkenazi Jews are over-represented  in positions of power and success. Do you know what over-represented means ? For instance, Jews are only 0.2% of world population but over 20% of nobel prize winners. That's what over-represented means. And yes, Jews are over-represented in positions of power and success. That's factually correct.

Medieval history of Ashkenazi Jews is the context in which most hypothesis as to why Askhenazi Jews are much more cognitively capable than other ethnic groups are set. That's what I referred to. One theory is that since Jews were banned from jobs such as Farming as heathens, they adopted more cognitively challenging jobs such as banking and trading which resulted in higher IQs among Jews through centuries long adaption. 

This is what I said again (copy-pasted): 

Based on what are you saying that I'm anti-semitic ? I am not anti-semitic in anyway.

Ashkenazi Jews have significantly higher IQ than average which is the reason why Ashkenazi Jews are significantly over-represented in Nobel Laureates and positions of power. This is literally a fact. If you knew medieval history of Ashkenazi Jews, you would easily figure out the reasons for this too. 

To be specific, average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is about 0.5 to 1 standard deviation (7.5 to 15 points) higher than American average but since IQ always has normal distribution for a general population, this results in Ashkenazi Jews' significant over-representation among highly gifted people. 

EDIT: If your mind does still not comprehend this properly, I am actually saying that Jews are factually smarter hence this results in Jews being more successful than average 

Over-representation has a negative subtext that you would clearly be able to understand anybody's objection to, had you a proper English education. Even in your bizarre Alice in wonderland scenario where Jews are big brainiacs who control the world with a monopoly on being smart, over-representation would be a poor word to use since we'd want competent people in positions of power. Furthermore, IQ is not a measure of competency, especially not in areas that undergraduate school teaches. You can drill engineering concepts into somebody who's poor at critical thinking or pattern recognition. Every actual study measuring the intelligence of Jews that I could find pointed to an increase in ability in areas like math in science when compared to Europeans, but lower performance in other areas, such as visuospatial abilities. This would explain why Ashkenazi Jews make up a large proportion of Nobel prize winners, they're better in areas that Nobel prizes are handed out for. The distribution of high iq scores among a population follows a trend of exponential decay as scores increase so even the MINOR advantages of one group over another can lead to them making up a much larger percentage of the extremely gifted crowd. However, none of this says anything about the average Ashkenazi Jew or the average White American. Neither group is predisposed to being significantly below average, so this doesn't really apply to average Joe getting a bachelors degree for social and economic mobility and you spent a whole ass day arguing about Jewish supremacy to defend a long-held belief of anti-semites that Jews have more power than they should. All because you were pressed that an American school system is trying to fix American socioeconomic inequality through education. Like literally the least objectionable step to take in addressing the issue.  Bringing this back to the topic at hand though, competence and intelligence are completely different skills. For example, somebody can try their hardest to give off an intelligent vibe but actually be a mouth-breathing anti semite who couldn't see past their confirmation biases if their life depended on it and falsely projects the dunning-kruger effect onto people who attempt to set them straight, decreasing their own competency by rejecting truth. Conversely stupid people can make some of the most competent workers through diligence and learning to stay in their lane. Just an example. 

Since you want to continually condescend people who are actually educated or even have first hand experience in the areas you're going on about, I will now give you the condensed, non-prejudiced history of Jews in medieval Europe. This is necessary because whether by accident or not, you've been making similar straw man arguments to the ignorant Europeans who were burning synagogues and blaming jews for the plague and their oppressed lives(instead of fighting for their own human rights or to end their serfdom from their real oppressors). Not a cute look. Jews propagated through Europe before the fall of Rome, before modern "Europeans" caused western society to fall into decline for hundreds of years. You are correct that Jews were discriminated against and forced out into fringe jobs by the groups that took over Europe after the fall of Rome, however you overestimate the amount of good it did to the greater Ashkenazi Jewish community and also the relative prosperity enjoyed by the few who occupied those jobs. Jews made great traders because they were welcome almost nowhere in Europe but politically safe to travel through MOST areas relatively unharmed in a way that Europeans couldn't with their constant infighting. They were also forced to fill banking positions as catholic tradition banned pretty much all banking practices between white men and white men as usury. This meant that the demand for banking had to be filled by some variety of heretic. Another fact to bring up before I get to the point is that the perception of Jews in that area, in that time period, was "jesus christ murderers". These 3 things combined to make a negative feedback loop where jews were already hated and the only way they were legally allowed to make a living was considered sinful and immoral, not unlike the way people treat sex workers in the present. This lead to even more disdain. People started to mistake their oppressive governments' robbing of all their production for jews conspiring to ruin christian lives through banking and trade. The public conscious placed MUCH more power over their daily lives on jewish tradesmen than they actually had. Both church and state had reason to encourage this paranoia to keep the people poor and faithful respectively. THAT was the genesis for the idea that Jewish people have disproportionate positions of power in society. This deeply held hatred was then used to justify cheating and stealing from the Jews to "get even". Whenever there was a business dispute, the jewish man had to pay up under virtually any circumstance, no matter how absurd. Not to mention the fact that the majority of jews at the time were actually extremely impoverished anyway because banking and trading both have long traditions of leading to further wealth inequality in all societies in all periods of history. Jewish paranoia is, has been, and unfortunately will probably continue to be the root of anti-semitism. Whether you accidentally or purposefully echoed the words of anti-semites, you still did, and in regards to a topic those anti-semitic words were literally unrelated to as outlined above . The idea that jews are overrepresented in positions of power has justified some of the worst actions of white society ever. To this day it's a talking point of literally every Neo nazi who's been brave enough to try and indoctrinate other racist imbeciles. Be better than that. Also one more time before I stop lowering myself to replying to your self-indulgent, (possibly on accident)racist twaddle, please continue to seethe that more black people are going to be educated. Equality is coming hard and fast. 

[Monster647 444]

delete

[Monster647 444]

22 minutes ago, Nino said:

 

I will just debunk your ridiculously wordy and off-point arguments concisely.

I speak 3 languages; only one of them is my native language, and English is not even my 2nd language. I didn't learn any of these foreign languages as a child in my formative years. I can make mistakes. Although I did not make a mistake in this instance. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overrepresented You assign unsubstantiated connotations to a word that was used with its essential meaning.  

IQ is the greatest ESTIMATOR of competency. If you don't think IQ is valid, then you must deny science of psychology all together. IQ is the most accurate psychometric measure both in terms of reliability of measuring it and reliability of estimation of future success. I used IQ as an example to why Blacks could not have equal representation in universities, and why it cannot be enforced through favouritism without decreasing competence because per capita, there is less cognitive capability in Black American community. It's your ignorance that you deny hard cold truth. 

Your understanding of IQ distribution is semi-accurate. Although you don't seem to know what you try to explain is simply called a Normal Distribution is.
1) Ashkenazi Jews are not only better in IQ subtests that are related to Nobels but they are better on average Full Scale IQ. 
2) Small differences in the mean will make significant differences in tails of distribution. If you were to pick up a random man from street and guess he's more aggressive than a woman you randomly pick. You'd only be 60% right. Because men are more aggressive than woman on average, it doesn't seem significant but if you were to pick the most aggressive 1% group, that'll be 90% male. Welcome to Stats 101. 
3) Again, you idiot: I neither said that Jews control the world nor that they have a monopoly on smartness. 
4) Jews have exact amount of power they should have. I never said they have more power than they should. I gave the explanation why they have that power which is legitimized in every way. 
5) I am laying out facts. These facts about Jews have been nothing but positive. I am not inciting violence against anyone. Your primitive brain cannot free from associations. 
6) Congrats on learning Dunning-Kruger Effect. Glad I contributed to your limited world view. 
7) Also congrats on expanding on medieval Jewish experience that I neither denied nor contested. I only dealt with its consequences which is the only thing I'm concerned with here as they constitute the exact opposite of black experience. 8) You willfully avoided the question as to if favouritism is granted for some intersectionality of less successful identities, what should happen to more than average successful ones... 

 

[Nino 12]

36 minutes ago, Monster647 said:

I will just debunk your ridiculously wordy and off-point arguments concisely.

I speak 3 languages; only one of them is my native language, and English is not even my 2nd language. I didn't learn any of these foreign languages as a child in my formative years. I can make mistakes. Although I did not make a mistake in this instance. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overrepresented You assign unsubstantiated connotations to a word that was used with its essential meaning.  

IQ is the greatest ESTIMATOR of competency. If you don't think IQ is valid, then you must deny science of psychology all together. IQ is the most accurate psychometric measure both in terms of reliability of measuring it and reliability of estimation of future success. I used IQ as an example to why Blacks could not have equal representation in universities, and why it cannot be enforced through favouritism without decreasing competence because per capita, there is less cognitive capability in Black American community. It's your ignorance that you deny hard cold truth. 

Your understanding of IQ distribution is semi-accurate. Although you don't seem to know what you try to explain is simply called a Normal Distribution is.
1) Ashkenazi Jews are not only better in IQ subtests that are related to Nobels but they are better on average Full Scale IQ. 
2) Small differences in the mean will make significant differences in tails of distribution. If you were to pick up a random man from street and guess he's more aggressive than a woman you randomly pick. You'd only be 60% right. Because men are more aggressive than woman on average, it doesn't seem significant but if you were to pick the most aggressive 1% group, that'll be 90% male. Welcome to Stats 101. 
3) Again, you idiot: I neither said that Jews control the world nor that they have a monopoly on smartness. 
4) Jews have exact amount of power they should have. I never said they have more power than they should. I gave the explanation why they have that power which is legitimized in every way. 
5) I am laying out facts. These facts about Jews have been nothing but positive. I am not inciting violence against anyone. Your primitive brain cannot free from associations. 
6) Congrats on learning Dunning-Kruger Effect. Glad I contributed to your limited world view. 
7) Also congrats on expanding on medieval Jewish experience that I neither denied nor contested. I only dealt with its consequences which is the only thing I'm concerned with here as they constitute the exact opposite of black experience. 8) You willfully avoided the question as to if favouritism is granted for some intersectionality of less successful identities, what should happen to more than average successful ones... 

 

Subtext isn’t usually outlined in dictionaries.

You failed to understand the difference between general intelligence and competency. IQ measures one, not the other.

I know what a normal distribution is, however, your Jewish conspiracy theories only have any effect on who’s extremely gifted. The majority of jewish people are still just average so I was looking specifically at the very top end of the iq distribution which exponentially falls off in any normally distributed set of data  

1) The differences in the full scale iq test are caused by the deviances in the the smaller contributing categories. Surely you can’t be that bad at math as to not understand how averages work.

2) I literally said this? Again it doesn’t affect the average person seeking social and economic mobility with a bachelor’s degree. As most people with Bachelor’s degrees are average, not mensa members.

3) Again you started to babel about how jews have been better off since medieval times(a period of extreme opression) which is literally anti-semite behavior so...

4) Again overrepresentation has a subtext in the English speaking world. Using over as a prefix almost always comes with the implicit assertion that it’s wrong. If you were acting anti-semitic by accident it might be a good idea to listen to the native English speaker in this scenario instead of continuing to defend this position.

5) You’ve laid out a lot of stuff for sure, not all of it is factual, some of it resembled extremely racist rhetoric.

6) Trust me, if anything, speaking to somebody who doesn’t want equality of outcome for Black people actually made me less intelligent and I learned nothing at any point in this exchange. You’re welcome for the history lesson and english tips though  

7) This is literally incomprehensible and you’re going to need to reexplain what you meant by jewish vs black experiences.

8) I think I understand what you’re trying to say and my answer would be that UC doesn’t have thousands of jews pouring out of it’s schools, they release demographic data for all of them and they vary wildly but in almost every case the majority group at each is reflective of a majority group in the area the university is located. Ex: the majority of people in the bay area are either white or asian, so white and asian people comprise a little over half of enrolled students at UCB. There isn’t a vast overrepresentation in any group. This isn’t meant to target a diversity problem in the schools, its meant to target a larger problem of the socioeconomic circumstances of black americans.

 

[Monster647 444]

10 hours ago, Nino said:

3) Again you started to babel about how jews have been better off since medieval times(a period of extreme opression) which is literally anti-semite behavior so...

Loool. I am done with this conversation. I can only debate so much with someone of your comprehension capability. 

Literally at no point, I said that Jews have been better off since medieval times. You have shown massive incapability in understanding what you read throughout the whole debate with extreme consistency. 

I said some of the prominent theories that try to explain why Ashkenazi Jews are significantly more successful & cognitively gifted today than other ethnic groups are founded in their medieval experience. 

Anti-semitism means hostility and prejudice against jewish people. Recognizing the fact that Ashkenazi Jews have been more successful than other ethnic groups on average in the modern world, and the fact that it's legitimized by Ashkenazi Jews having higher intelligence on average is not anti-semitism.
Also I did not talk about Jews in general. Same cannot be said about Sephardic Jews.