UofCali Repeals Proposition Against Favoritism&Restores Affirmative Action

[Monster647 444]

1 minute ago, Nino said:

You can teach anybody with an acceptable SAT score virtually anything taught in any undergrad program.

Your clearly anti semitic OP's perspective assumes that the delta between "competence" in individuals would remain after graduating. The point of a university is to turn young adults into competent professionals. Assuming 2 people work hard and graduate with a bachelor's degree, it wouldn't matter what their SAT score was. A lot of the first year of any undergrad program is reiterating high school material anyway.

1) Based on what are you saying that I'm anti-semitic ? I am not anti-semitic in anyway.

Ashkenazi Jews have significantly higher IQ than average which is the reason why Ashkenazi Jews are significantly over-represented in Nobel Laureates and positions of power. This is literally a fact. If you knew medieval history of Ashkenazi Jews, you would easily figure out the reasons for this too. 

To be specific, average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is about 0.5 to 1 standard deviation (7.5 to 15 points) higher than American average but since IQ always has normal distribution for a general population, this results in Ashkenazi Jews' significant over-representation among highly gifted people. 

2) YOU'RE WRONG. Look I'm not arguing, I'm stating that you're factually incorrect. You cannot teach any random individual and make them into a competent engineer for instance. You cannot teach everyone everything. SAT scores, themselves, are closely correlated with Intelligence Quotient which is the most accurate psychometric measure of intelligence and long term life success. 

[Nino 12]

1 minute ago, Economy said:

Can anyone explain positive discrimination in more detail? Is it like favouring a marginalized group to create a diversity quota?

 

I've never heard this term

They're going to be giving more weight to black applicants in the future. Most schools already have a secret unofficial "diversity quota" that they'll vehemently deny existing. This is reaching further than that in an attempt to help ease the wide social and professional inequality of black people in America that's pervasive even in 2020, not to look diverse and woke. It's specifically targeted at alleviating the problems with the system they're a part of. Allegedly. 

I don't believe it when I see white guys in suits repealing anti-discrimination codes so that they can help black people though and neither should anybody else though.  

[Nino 12]

2 minutes ago, Monster647 said:

1) Based on what are you saying that I'm anti-semitic ? I am not anti-semitic in anyway.

Ashkenazi Jews have significantly higher IQ than average which is the reason why Ashkenazi Jews are significantly over-represented in Nobel Laureates and positions of power. This is literally a fact. If you knew medieval history of Ashkenazi Jews, you would easily figure out the reasons for this too. 

To be specific, average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is about 0.5 to 1 standard deviation (7.5 to 15 points) higher than American average but since IQ always has normal distribution for a general population, this results in Ashkenazi Jews' significant over-representation among highly gifted people. 

2) YOU'RE WRONG. Look I'm not arguing, I'm stating that you're factually incorrect. You cannot teach any random individual and make them into a competent engineer for instance. You cannot teach everyone everything. SAT scores, themselves, are closely correlated with Intelligence Quotient which is the most accurate psychometric measure of intelligence and long term life success. 

Except anybody who passed math and physics with flying colors can easily take on an engineering course and succeed, regardless of all other factors  

[Franch Toast 27,737]

I used to teach in a public university in the US, and I obtained my PhD from an Ivy League university where I also worked as a TA. (Side note: Many of my public university students did so much better than my Ivy League students in my classes.) I also have served on admissions committees. I can assure you from first-hand experience that the most "competent" applicants are not necessarily admitted to institutions of higher education. A lot of it comes down to money and also the whims of the admissions committee, and "diversity" is often a joke just to make the institution look good (not only when it comes to admitting students, but hiring faculty). It's nearly impossible to make university admissions objective. Even if you base it off of test scores, it's unfair because a student whose parents were able to shell out money for a tutoring program is going to do better than a student juggling multiple jobs in high school who had no time to study for the college entrance exams. Essays and interviews are extremely subjective. The truth is, it's not about where the students start when they enter higher education but where they are when they finish. You really don't know what their competence is until you've given them the resources to potentially succeed, but even then, a student who has to work while in school is going to have less time for their studies than someone who doesn't have to take an outside job and can solely concentrate on their studies. 

I taught students with varying abilities, and I never failed a student (on the occasional exam, yes, but not in any of my classes). This isn't because I was an easy grader (well, I was a softie) but because I did my best to tailor my teaching to my students' needs and to guide them to the resources that would help them succeed. Honestly, the biggest obstacle I ever faced when it came to helping students learn wasn't someone not being smart enough or having enough potential competence, but rather, students who had a bad attitude. There are no "dumb" (hate that word) students, only bad teachers. 

[Monster647 444]

34 minutes ago, Nino said:

He's talking about jews having disproportionate representation in positions of power(factually incorrect) and East Asians(largest population on earth) overrepresented. They're relying on fallacy on purpose to enforce their otherwise indefensible world view  

You're not only ignorant in what you're speaking but you're also not understanding the context here. 

About Jews, I already gave you the facts: 

Ashkenazi Jews have significantly higher IQ than average which is the reason why Ashkenazi Jews are significantly over-represented in Nobel Laureates and positions of power. This is literally a fact. If you knew medieval history of Ashkenazi Jews, you would easily figure out the reasons for this too. 

To be specific, average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is about 0.5 to 1 standard deviation (7.5 to 15 points) higher than American average but since IQ always has normal distribution for a general population, this results in Ashkenazi Jews' significant over-representation among highly gifted people. 

Asian overrepresentations in successful positions was compared to their North American population. Not compared to their global population. Asian Americans are the highest earning ethnic group in United States. They earn more than white americans. 

[Monster647 444]

30 minutes ago, Nino said:

Except anybody who passed math and physics with flying colors can easily take on an engineering course and succeed, regardless of all other factors  

I have literally disproved every single one of your points. I am not arguing with your ignorance anymore. 

[Nino 12]

These recycled neo nazi talking points  

[Monster647 444]

28 minutes ago, Franch Toast said:

I used to teach in a public university in the US, and I obtained my PhD from an Ivy League university where I also worked as a TA. (Side note: Many of my public university students did so much better than my Ivy League students in my classes.) I also have served on admissions committees. I can assure you from first-hand experience that the most "competent" applicants are not necessarily admitted to institutions of higher education. A lot of it comes down to money and also the whims of the admissions committee, and "diversity" is often a joke just to make the institution look good (not only when it comes to admitting students, but hiring faculty). It's nearly impossible to make university admissions objective.

Now, it's different to say that admissions are not 100% objective. I don't claim it is completely objective either. 

But it's more objective than introducing racial quotas. By the way, I am equally conflicted about admissions taking people who are able to make "generous" donations

30 minutes ago, Franch Toast said:

Even if you base it off of test scores, it's unfair because a student whose parents were able to shell out money for a tutoring program is going to do better than a student juggling multiple jobs in high school who had no time to study for the college entrance exams. Essays and interviews are extremely subjective. The truth is, it's not about where the students start when they enter higher education but where they are when they finish. You really don't know what their competence is until you've given them the resources to potentially succeed, but even then, a student who has to work while in school is going to have less time for their studies than someone who doesn't have to take an outside job and can solely concentrate on their studies. 

Everything you say here seems to relate to not having equality of the opportunity. I would be more than happy to see proposed solutions so that equality of opportunity can be achieved. Favoring students based on their race does not only do anything to contribute to equality of opportunity, it decreases the equality for poor students of other races. 

38 minutes ago, Franch Toast said:

I taught students with varying abilities, and I never failed a student (on the occasional exam, yes, but not in any of my classes). This isn't because I was an easy grader (well, I was a softie) but because I did my best to tailor my teaching to my students' needs and to guide them to the resources that would help them succeed. Honestly, the biggest obstacle I ever faced when it came to helping students learn wasn't someone not being smart enough or having enough potential competence, but rather, students who had a bad attitude. There are no "dumb" (hate that word) students, only bad teachers. 

You have your own personal experiences that I cannot deny or confirm. 

But I have to say that I disagree with the general message here. You were TAing at an Ivy League Uni. That already means that your audience is not an average sample of people. 

 

[Galactic Mess 1,393]

I might be wrong, but from an outsider perspective, the American university admission system seems very subjective. From what I know, they don’t consider only your score in a test, but your letters of admission, your past actions and so on. Why not add affirmative action to that? It’s a mess anyway.

[Dominic 11,922]

The problem with AA is the way it's presented. A majority of people are in favour of programs that support minorities and the disadvantaged to obtain jobs and education however, this is instead presented as quotas or checklist during application processes which a majority are against. It doesnt need to be an all or nothing kind of thing, just an adaptation of what AA is. 

[Monster647 444]

57 minutes ago, CautiousLurker said:

What factual evidence? Where are they? Show concrete evidence that affirmative action undermines American society...

My ideology is more than what you have going for you which is plain selfishness - you can't handle the idea that someone from a marginalized group will now have a better chance at a career... Again, until there is equity, this will do - if you don't like it, fix the unjust system first, and then we'll talk about whether affirmative action is a good idea...
 

I am not even a European North American. I am an immigrant myself. You're caught in a vicious dunning-kruger effect which prevents you from realizing that you are not able to consider alternative points rationally because of your ideological motivation where you try to characterize me as your ideological enemy aka the selfish white man.... 

I am saying that a) Favoritism is unfair & b) Favoritism decreases competence in the society. Affirmative action is a form of favoritism as it involves giving someone advantage based on a factor other than merit. Factual evidence that racial affirmative actions as a form of favoritism have decreased competence in labour market in other countries ? South Africa is the best example. 

The point you're defending is against the values of liberal democracy and meritocracy. People have different competences, and they should be treated and rewarded as such in an environment where they have equality of opportunity. If you mean equality of results by equity. It is undesirable. 

The action of University of California will only make an unjust system more unjust... 

[CautiousLurker 19,709]

4 minutes ago, Monster647 said:

I am not even a European North American. I am an immigrant myself. You're caught in a vicious dunning-kruger effect which prevents you from realizing that you are not able to consider alternative points rationally because of your ideological motivation where you try to characterize me as your ideological enemy aka the selfish white man.... 

I am saying that a) Favoritism is unfair & b) Favoritism decreases competence in the society. Affirmative action is a form of favoritism as it involves giving someone advantage based on a factor other than merit. Factual evidence that racial affirmative actions as a form of favoritism have decreased competence in labour market in other countries ? South Africa is the best example. 

The point you're defending is against the values of liberal democracy and meritocracy. People have different competences, and they should be treated and rewarded as such in an environment where they have equality of opportunity. If you mean equality of results by equity. It is undesirable. 

The action of University of California will only make an unjust system more unjust... 

I will repeat - provide the evidence... You said there's factual evidence - where is it?

The fact that you're more willing to type up paragraphs worth of bs instead of providing actually evidence tells me everything I need to know... Seriously you're going to blame my response on dunning-kruger effect, do you even know what it is? 

Just because you throw around a bunch of big words doesn't make your point any more valid - you provided no evidence, you ignore all nuance when it comes to education, you strawman the everloving f*ck out of arguments for affirmative action - sit down...

Racism is against the values of liberal democracy and meritocracy also, yet here we are... I will repeat - when that seizes to affect marginalized groups, we can talk about whether affirmative action is needed... but people like you won't move a finger to ensure we are moving in that direction - when was the last time you spoke out about the injustices affecting marginalized groups in schools? Do tell...

[Monster647 444]

2 minutes ago, CautiousLurker said:

I will repeat - provide the evidence... You said there's factual evidence - where is it?
 

Instead of insulting, you could stop being lazy and do your own research. I don't have a repository of these researches. 

1) Background on black-white achievement gap that touches all the sensitive issues that everybody is afraid of talking about: 
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-black-white-test-score-gap-why-it-persists-and-what-can-be-done/

2) https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/2193-8997-3-7 - A research done on University of California minority graduation rate before and after Proposition 209 was enacted. It proves that affirmative action in United States resulted in decreased competence beyond damaging career prospects of more deserving candidates. 

"Proposition 209 banned the use of racial preferences in admissions at public colleges in California. We analyze unique data for all applicants and enrollees within the University of California (UC) system before and after Prop 209. After Prop 209, minority graduation rates increased by 4.35 percentage points. We present evidence that certain institutions are better at graduating more-prepared students while other institutions are better at graduating less-prepared students and that these matching effects are particularly important for the bottom tail of the qualification distribution. We find that Prop 209 led to a more efficient sorting of minority students, explaining 18% of the graduation rate increase in our preferred specification. Further, there appears to have been behavioral responses to Prop 209, by universities and/or students, that explain between 23% and 64% of the graduation rate increase"

 

12 minutes ago, CautiousLurker said:

The fact that you're more willing to type up paragraphs worth of bs instead of providing actually evidence tells me everything I need to know... Seriously you're going to blame my response on dunning-kruger effect, do you even know what it is? 
Just because you throw around a bunch of big words doesn't make your point any more valid - you provided no evidence, you ignore all nuance when it comes to education, you strawman the everloving f*ck out of arguments for affirmative action - sit down...

I knew Dunning-Kruger effect but now I taught you too  

38 minutes ago, CautiousLurker said:

Racism is against the values of liberal democracy and meritocracy also, yet here we are... 

Nobody is saying racism is good. But not everything is related to racism or whatever cool anti-ism you wanna champion at the time. Complex problems require complex multivariate analysis. You're doing a very simple single-variate analysis of a complex problem that is the achievement gap of black americans vs rest of american populace. Otherwise you wouldn't think that race quotas or preferential treatments are a logical solution. It's a proven fact that minority races can be equally or more successful than whites in America.

41 minutes ago, CautiousLurker said:

I will repeat - when that seizes to affect marginalized groups, we can talk about whether affirmative action is needed...

ceases - you meant ? 

44 minutes ago, CautiousLurker said:

but people like you won't move a finger to ensure we are moving in that direction - when was the last time you spoke out about the injustices affecting marginalized groups in schools? Do tell...

You are moving your finger as dumb as it gets for both of us. Stop defining everything at emotionally charged levels without a beacon of reason.

I do more than speaking about less fortunate people. Just in 2019, I led a social service project that donated more than hundred rolling water tanks to subsaharan countries' villages without sanitation infrastructure. 

[CautiousLurker 19,709]

1 hour ago, Monster647 said:

Instead of insulting, you could stop being lazy and do your own research. I don't have a repository of these researches. 

You are the one who made the claim that factual evidence exists - you back it up

1 hour ago, Monster647 said:

1) Background on black-white achievement gap that touches all the sensitive issues that everybody is afraid of talking about: 
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-black-white-test-score-gap-why-it-persists-and-what-can-be-done/

 

Why is a paper, not even that, an article from 1998 relevant today? Where are up-to-date numbers... Also this is about test scores, I asked you to provide evidence of affirmative action impacting American society...

Btw, one of the authors deemed a thesis that linked IQ and race worthy of a phd - hmmmm

1 hour ago, Monster647 said:

2) https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/2193-8997-3-7 - A research done on University of California minority graduation rate before and after Proposition 209 was enacted. It proves that affirmative action in United States resulted in decreased competence beyond damaging career prospects of more deserving candidates. 

This is one school - again, this does not back your claim that it decreases 'the competence'

Is this all you've got? The first article didn't even link any sources  


Pointing out that your arguments are terrible is not dunning kruger effect - I'm not overestimating my cognitive abilities by pointing out you are biased af

Can't make a good argument, go for grammar - well done, good rebuttal...

Also, 

1 hour ago, Monster647 said:

You're doing a very simple single-variate analysis of a complex problem that is the achievement gap of black americans vs rest of american populace.

Says a person who said 'if you are accepting person x who is less competent than person y. You are decreasing competence' - does the hypocrisy escape you? You really cannot see how grossly you oversimplified things in your initial responses?

1 hour ago, Monster647 said:

It's a proven fact that minority races can be equally or more successful than whites in America.

Oh yes, after all Oprah exists - racism has been defeated 

1 hour ago, Monster647 said:

You are moving your finger as dumb as it gets for both of us. Stop defining everything at emotionally charged levels without a beacon of reason.

I do more than speaking about less fortunate people. Just in 2019, I led a social service project that donated more than hundred rolling water tanks to subsaharan countries' villages without sanitation infrastructure. 

You keep doing it - just because you say something and sprinkle a bunch of nice-sounding words here and there doesn't make you right... What was so unreasonable in what I said so far? 

Also what do water tanks have to do with what I asked? What you said is completely irrelevant... When was the last time you stood up for marginalized groups who face discrimination in schools?

[Gagaloo911 12,959]

The ignorant OP and their obvious disdain throughout this thread for giving marginalized communities a fair shot in college applications 

Deplorable.