AOC Dumped Bernie After Joe Rogan Endorsement

[Economy 53,097]

2 minutes ago, Cookie Tookie said:

You’re 100% right. Don’t feel like you’re alone. We can’t claim we’re feminists and that we want equality, yet allow biological males to compete with biological females for the sake of “inclusion”, when it has negatively affected women dramatically. Sex is something we can not dismiss, and I have strong opinions about this.

Agreed. Sports is a physical competition so the physical sex therefore is what should matter in the case of sports

 

If it's competitions that are mostly just mental like pool table tournaments I don't think it really matters but on something physical there's just too many differences

 

It's not just strength or muscle mass. Even some proportions and body shapes and body fat percentages tend to have differences by sex and that has subtle impacts in different sports so I think mixing sexes becomes problematic

[birdgirle 2]

5 hours ago, Supersonic said:

So what I'm actually getting right now from this thread is that Bernie is begging for the endorsement of people that hold homophobic and transphobic opinions, but AOC somehow is the bad one for not wanting to associate herself with that (especially considering she's gonna appear on RuPaul's Drag Race this season)?

Sorry but... AOC is in the right and Bernie and his campaign should get the biggest side-eye of the century for that, especially from the LGBT people that vocally support him.

 

Thank you for saying something.

As a trans GGD lurker, this thread has really shocked me in its disregard of the basic civil rights of the millions of trans people in the world.

AOC is one of the few politicians to even mention our existence, let alone support us openly.

Of course Bernie should be held accountable.

 

That doesn't mean Joe Biden gets off the hook. 

 

The question at hand is not:

"Is Sanders or Bernie better?"

 

The questions are:

1) "How important it is for a politician to speak up for the trans and non-binary 1% of the population?"

2) and then "How important is the trans and non-binary 1% of the population to me?"

mic drop.

Over and out.

 

 

p.s.

Not gonna check back for transphobic replies.

also, I love Lady Gaga. 

[Supersonic 49,376]

4 minutes ago, Economy said:

Agreed. Sports is a physical competition so the physical sex therefore is what should matter in the case of sports

 

If it's competitions that are mostly just mental like pool table tournaments I don't think it really matters but on something physical there's just too many differences

 

It's not just strength or muscle mass. Even some proportions and body shapes and body fat percentages tend to have differences by sex and that has subtle impacts in different sports so I think mixing sexes becomes problematic

I disagree with this. There's no scientic base that confirms that a trans woman or a trans man would have ANY sort of advantage in physical competitions over a cisgender person and until there actually are studies that can confirm (or not confirm), any assumption of this being "unfair" is discriminatory. Especially because most transgender people DO take hormones, which change body shape, fat percentages and secondary sex characteristics.

I also don't really get about... what is supposed to be fair about not letting transgender people compete in the categories they want to compete in. Like... what else are they supposed to do? Waste their talent, forget about their dreams, get a desk job at accounting and not pursue their passion instead? Or be publically labelled and singled out as the wrong gender every time they compete?

What about Intersex people who have both male and female genitalia? Should they be banned from all competitions altogether because can't be defined by the binary system altogether? What about Annet Negesa, an intersex Nigerian runner, who got pressured by the International Association of Athletes to get surgery to remove her male sex characteristics so she would be allowed compete, but then had to end her career because the surgery wrecked her body?

Where does the policing of hormones, gender and sex really stop? If a trans woman potentially having any additional testosterone left in her body that could give her an "unfair advantage" (trust me... most trans women have less testosterone in their body than the average cisgender woman because of medication and testosterone blockers)... what about the fact that the majority of cisgender women in sport have a way bigger amount of testosterone in their body than the average woman, most of them even being on par with male athletes?

[Economy 53,097]

14 minutes ago, Supersonic said:

I disagree with this. There's no scientic base that confirms that a trans woman or a trans man would have ANY sort of advantage in physical competitions over a cisgender person and until there actually are studies that can confirm (or not confirm), any assumption of this being "unfair" is discriminatory. Especially because most transgender people DO take hormones, which change body shape, fat percentages and secondary sex characteristics.

I also don't really get about... what is supposed to be fair about not letting transgender people compete in the categories they want to compete in. Like... what else are they supposed to do? Waste their talent, forget about their dreams, get a desk job at accounting and not pursue their passion instead? Or be publically labelled and singled out as the wrong gender every time they compete?

What about Intersex people who have both male and female genitalia? Should they be banned from all competitions altogether because can't be defined by the binary system altogether? What about Annet Negesa, an intersex Nigerian runner, who got pressured by the International Association of Athletes to get surgery to remove her male sex characteristics so she would be allowed compete, but then had to end her career because the surgery wrecked her body?

Where does the policing of hormones, gender and sex really stop? If a trans woman potentially having any additional testosterone left in her body that could give her an "unfair advantage" (trust me... most trans women have less testosterone in their body than the average cisgender woman because of medication and testosterone blockers)... what about the fact that the majority of cisgender women in sport have a way bigger amount of testosterone in their body than the average woman, most of them even being on par with male athletes?

I suppose if there is significant physical transition then it becomes less relevant

 

Not everyone who identifies as the opposite gender of their sex goes thru a transition tho. In fact many do not 

 

In those cases I still think it's problematic

[Cookie Tookie 10,546]

30 minutes ago, Supersonic said:

I disagree with this. There's no scientic base that confirms that a trans woman or a trans man would have ANY sort of advantage in physical competitions over a cisgender person and until there actually are studies that can confirm (or not confirm), any assumption of this being "unfair" is discriminatory. Especially because most transgender people DO take hormones, which change body shape, fat percentages and secondary sex characteristics.

I also don't really get about... what is supposed to be fair about not letting transgender people compete in the categories they want to compete in. Like... what else are they supposed to do? Waste their talent, forget about their dreams, get a desk job at accounting and not pursue their passion instead? Or be publically labelled and singled out as the wrong gender every time they compete?

What about Intersex people who have both male and female genitalia? Should they be banned from all competitions altogether because can't be defined by the binary system altogether? What about Annet Negesa, an intersex Nigerian runner, who got pressured by the International Association of Athletes to get surgery to remove her male sex characteristics so she would be allowed compete, but then had to end her career because the surgery wrecked her body?

Where does the policing of hormones, gender and sex really stop? If a trans woman potentially having any additional testosterone left in her body that could give her an "unfair advantage" (trust me... most trans women have less testosterone in their body than the average cisgender woman because of medication and testosterone blockers)... what about the fact that the majority of cisgender women in sport have a way bigger amount of testosterone in their body than the average woman, most of them even being on par with male athletes?

We’re not going to sit here and debate perceptions about transition and sports. We’re going to abide by biology, anatomy, and physiology. Biologically, males have larger upper body structure, with more muscle mass throughout the body. Females have less muscle mass, and feature more fat in the lower body with a smaller chest cavity and wider pelvis. I’m not even going to get into men’s larger breathing capacity, stamina, thicker bone density, etc, which is all common scientific knowledge. 

Contrary to what many seem to think, you can not change skeletal structure or muscle structure, or many other innate biological structures and functions. Less than 1% of the population does not get to dictate how the other 99% functions, especially in sports. Women are being slaughtered all across the board in sports competitions by trans women because of this. This is not a one off, one time incident, or a shock. Many of these “trans women” putting in little effort to even transition. You do realize these were males that spent years doing intensive building and training of their body prior to transition? Hormones are NOT going to change that. 

We absolutely need to be more inclusive of trans people in sports, but that should not come at the expense of biological women, who have a completely different social and biological experience than trans women. Trans women can be on women’s teams, but should only be competing against other trans women to be fair. 

And can people please stop dragging intersex individuals into trans conversations? Many have voiced that they do not want to be compared at all, and it’s unfair to use them as an example. 

[JusKeepBreathin 19,311]

Finally some one who really does not compromise her integrity. 

[uo111 5,285]

5 minutes ago, Cookie Tookie said:

We’re not going to sit here and debate perceptions about transition and sports. We’re going to abide by biology, anatomy, and physiology. Biologically, males have larger upper body structure, with more muscle mass throughout the body. Females have less muscle mass, and feature more fat in the lower body with a smaller chest cavity and wider pelvis. I’m not even going to get into men’s larger breathing capacity, stamina, thicker bone density, etc, which is all common scientific knowledge. 

Contrary to what many seem to think, you can not change skeletal structure or muscle structure, or many other innate biological structures and functions. Less than 1% of the population does not get to dictate how the other 99% functions, especially in sports. Women are being slaughtered all across the board in sports competitions by trans women because of this. This is not a one off, one time incident, or a shock. Many of these “trans women” putting in little effort to even transition. You do realize these were males that spent years doing intensive building and training of their body prior to transition? Hormones are NOT going to change that. 

We absolutely need to be more inclusive of trans people in sports, but that should not come at the expense of biological women, who have a completely different social and biological experience than trans women. Trans women can be on women’s teams, but should only be competing against other trans women to be fair. 

Wrong.

People who go through puberty with higher levels of testosterone and lower levels of estrogen have larger upper bodies and more muscle mass. And on the other end of the spectrum, people who have high levels of estrogen and very low levels of testosterone during puberty have female secondary sex characteristics. And people who start hormone therapy after puberty have changes in muscle mass and fat distribution that are entirely complete before 5 years.

For someone with such strong convictions, you don't seem to be very knowledgeable about this topic. That begs the question, why do you hold such strong views about something you have done zero research on?

[Economy 53,097]

7 minutes ago, uo111 said:

Wrong.

People who go through puberty with higher levels of testosterone and lower levels of estrogen have larger upper bodies and more muscle mass. And on the other end of the spectrum, people who have high levels of estrogen and very low levels of testosterone during puberty have female secondary sex characteristics. And people who start hormone therapy after puberty have changes in muscle mass and fat distribution that are entirely complete before 5 years.

For someone with such strong convictions, you don't seem to be very knowledgeable about this topic. That begs the question, why do you hold such strong views about something you have done zero research on?

Ur argument seems to go under the assumption that most trans women go thru an early transition but I don't believe most do

 

Some trans don't even transition at all physically

 

Hormone therapy ultimately will not change things like body structure and I'm not 100% sure but I don't think it will change ur bone density either. Certainly not it's basic build

[Cookie Tookie 10,546]

15 minutes ago, uo111 said:

Wrong.

People who go through puberty with higher levels of testosterone and lower levels of estrogen have larger upper bodies and more muscle mass. And on the other end of the spectrum, people who have high levels of estrogen and very low levels of testosterone during puberty have female secondary sex characteristics. And people who start hormone therapy after puberty have changes in muscle mass and fat distribution that are entirely complete before 5 years.

For someone with such strong convictions, you don't seem to be very knowledgeable about this topic. That begs the question, why do you hold such strong views about something you have done zero research on?

So all the biology classes I took and research papers I did to get where I am today are a lie then. The fact that you refuse to even say male or female to acknowledge Certain developmental growths, and simply say “people who have high levels of ___” completely ignores that the vast majority of males have higher testosterone and vast majority of females have higher estrogen. Trying to make it sound like there is significant variability in hormone levels in development within in each sex Is false information, when the vast majority will undergo exactly the same structural development of their sex. 

And none of these trans individuals slaughtering women in sports have transition at a young age preventing puberty. They all transition, oddly, after they’ve been in their sports for several years of structural building and muscle mass building. And to think that all distorts and melts away by taking in the opposite sex hormones is not truth. 

again, My solution is very clear. Allow trans women on women’s teams, and let them compete against other trans women. It’s the fairest solution. 

[uo111 5,285]

1 minute ago, Economy said:

Ur argument seems to go under the assumption that most trans women go thru an early transition but I don't believe most do

 

Some trans don't even transition at all physically

I wasn't making any arguments about sports.

Merely about the biology of the matter. Hormones do change muscle mass and fat distribution, no matter when you start them. That's a medical fact.

 

I also want to point out that @Cookie Tookie also stated their agreement with blocking transgender children from seeking medical care in order to take puberty blockers. An opinion that not only leads to transgender homicide and suicide, but also prevents people from going through the puberty that they would prefer and thus minimizing this argument against them participating in sports that aligns with their gender identity rather than their sex assigned at birth.

If you really think that transgender adults shouldn't participate in sports as the gender they identify with because of an unfair advantage, then you should advocate for transgender adolescents to get necessary medical care so that it would be fair.

 

1 minute ago, Cookie Tookie said:

So all the biology classes I took and research papers I did to get where I am today are a lie then. The fact that you refuse to even say male or female to acknowledge Certain developmental growths, and simply say “people who have high levels of ___” completely ignores that the vast majority of males have higher testosterone and vast majority of females have higher estrogen. Trying to make it sound like there is significant variability in hormone levels in development within in each sex Is false information, when the vast majority will undergo exactly the same structural development of their sex. 

And none of these trans individuals slaughtering women in sports have transition at a young age preventing puberty. They all transition, oddly, after they’ve been in their sports for several years of structural building and muscle mass building. And to think that all distorts and melts away by taking in the opposite sex hormones is not truth. 

again, My solution is very clear. Allow trans women on women’s teams, and let them compete against other trans women. It’s the fairest solution. 

They could have been wrong. I think it's more likely that you just didn't understand them though.

[Economy 53,097]

2 minutes ago, uo111 said:

I wasn't making any arguments about sports.

Merely about the biology of the matter. Hormones do change muscle mass and fat distribution, no matter when you start them. That's a medical fact.

 

I also want to point out that @Cookie Tookie also stated their agreement with blocking transgender children from seeking medical care in order to take puberty blockers. An opinion that not only leads to transgender homicide and suicide, but also prevents people from going through the puberty that they would prefer and thus minimizing this argument against them participating in sports that aligns with their gender identity rather than their sex assigned at birth.

If you really think that transgender adults shouldn't participate in sports as the gender they identify with because of an unfair advantage, then you should advocate for transgender adolescents to get necessary medical care so that it would be fair.

 

They could have been wrong. I think it's more likely that you just didn't understand them though.

What I'm saying is not everyone will start a transition before puperty. And I'm saying some trans don't even transition at all

[uo111 5,285]

Just now, Economy said:

What I'm saying is not everyone will start a transition before puperty. And I'm saying some trans don't even transition at all

So what? I really don't care about the politics of sports. I care a lot more about the dehumanization of transgender people.

[Economy 53,097]

Just now, uo111 said:

So what? I really don't care about the politics of sports. I care a lot more about the dehumanization of transgender people.

Well if any disadvantage doesn't matter... Then we shouldn't have men's and women's competitions at all then

[uo111 5,285]

Just now, Economy said:

Well if any disadvantage doesn't matter... Then we shouldn't have men's and women's competitions at all then

I think there is a misunderstanding. Barring people who went through male puberty from competing in female sports (and vice versa) isn't something I hold an opinion on. I can see the implications on both sides and I don't have an answer for it, nor do I really care since I don't care about sports.

But there were many inaccurate statements made about the biology of the matter, which is what I took issue with.

[Economy 53,097]

2 minutes ago, uo111 said:

I think there is a misunderstanding. Barring people who went through male puberty from competing in female sports (and vice versa) isn't something I hold an opinion on. I can see the implications on both sides and I don't have an answer for it, nor do I really care since I don't care about sports.

But there were many inaccurate statements made about the biology of the matter, which is what I took issue with.

Fair

 

Edit: although the more I'm searching into it the more I'm finding that there isn't a clear consensus on a lot of things on what the advantages are or arent

 

I think they need to do more studies