Economy 52,928 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 21 minutes ago, HorusRa2 said: Again, I just want to point out that regardless of the fact that Bernie's platform is to the left of Scandinavian countries (in part), Bernie's platform and agenda is still not socialism and I think that's the disconnect between my response and your subsequent response. Bernie's platform as a whole still does not dismantle the market economy and does not put the government in charge of the means of production. Yes, there's an overemphasis on the plans and not the restructuring because the bulk of the content is in the plans. I do agree that Bernie's changes are drastic relative to where we are today but it doesn't fundamentally change the fact that the US is a mixed economy at the end of the day. It does not make the US a socialist country and it isn't going to destroy markets. I do agree that it has everything to do with implementation. For example the Bush stimulus package didn't go far enough to stimulate the economy bc the propensity to spend was not high. People had debts so the money they received did not go into the economy. Rather, it was used to pay off debts that did not result in more goods and services provided. So, retail sales didn't go up. The consumer confidence didn't go up and on and on it goes. The economy took much longer to build back up through Obama's leadership and even then there were serious problems (wage stagnation, people giving up on finding work, people working jobs they were more qualified for to make ends meet, etc). I just don't think the criticism that something drastic necessarily makes it bad and I know that you're much more skeptical in this regard and I respect it while disagreeing with it at the same time. The paragraph I bolded kind goes along with my frequent arguments that policies are not always good or bad on their own. It depends. What works in some circumstances doesn't work in another set of circumstances For example tax cuts are kinda useless during downturns. The private sector is cautious and businesses won't invest and expand. And people will also just save the money or pay debts. That's can be good for correcting debt imbalances over the long term but it does little for stimulus in the immediate term. Spending on useful infrastructure projects would yield better results in those times When the economy is stronger and confidence is higher on the other hand tax cuts might work better. Even then depends on the needs of the moment but yeah And there's different types of socialism I know. Don't worry I know u weren't refering to socialism as in Government taking over means of production. If I thought that's what u meant I'd say I never support it no matter what cuz that has never worked well for prosperity anywhere I was refering to more socialist "like" or Democratic socialism... Many ppl just use socialism for short form it doesn't mean they think ur talking Soviet Union or Venezuela state owned type. The type of socialist like policies Bernie is proposing I don't think are bad in themselves... But id still like to see a lot more details about long term sustainability for example Few experts think some of his taxes will yield as much as he expects like the wealth tax and for reasons I went into I myself agree. His overall scope of spending relies on dipping into hoarded wealth over the years (wealth tax) because taxes on earned wealth as it comes in is insufficient He has not given any plans what's so ever about how he would replace such a big source of funding once the tax base is largely exhausted or at least significantly deminishes in 10 to 20 years... In fact even a dam severe market crash would obliterate half that wealth instantly cuz again a lot of billionaire asset wealth isn't exactly real fundamentally. It's not real cash These details are important. If ur talking about a revolution u need to be more detailed in your plans than other candidates that wanna maintain a status quo or make tweeks to it Bernie is the one proposing the greatest amount of change. That automatically gives him a greater responsibility than every other candidate to be very detailed about how he will do everything U cant propose a "revolution" with half plans or even 3/4 plans no matter how good they may sound. I also say this because changing entire systems is not easy. If he manages to pass a lot of his agendas to change the system it's not like it's easy to just suddenly switch it back like an on and off switch. So it's critical in my opinion that things are very well thought out ahead of time I don't think Bernie's policies are likely to have any major net negative to the economy or at least to the average citizen in the short term. I'm worried about the long term if stuff isn't planed well and sustainably And I live in a Country that's super interlinked with America so ur politics kinda matter to me too even tho I may not be able to vote in ur elections Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woolfsmck 2,763 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 What gets me here is that the US already has a lot of social welfare programs in place ... Its not like tax pay for programs don't exist... I am against shutting down the private sector to erect a gov. operated healthcare for all system ... That is a 'radical' shift and will damage several parts of the economy … Not seeing this is pretty blind , like Bernie is a pie piper leading all the children to doom.. like a cat in a sil, I observe life, moving and still. My words give a clue,look inside to see whats true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Heart 15,041 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Mayor Pete interrupts Bernie to say absolutely nothing: ▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlepotter 76,617 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 23 hours ago, Lilmonzter said: Do you think without him there they'll be talking on end about him, I don't think so. I do actually, he is the frontrunner after all and thy're all trying to dethrone him chaeri pls Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorusRa2 5,005 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 13 hours ago, Woolfsmck said: What gets me here is that the US already has a lot of social welfare programs in place ... Its not like tax pay for programs don't exist... I am against shutting down the private sector to erect a gov. operated healthcare for all system ... That is a 'radical' shift and will damage several parts of the economy … Not seeing this is pretty blind , like Bernie is a pie piper leading all the children to doom.. Ok. Stop right there. Medicare for All is not govt operated healthcare. That would be nationalized medicine which is closer to the UK system than Medicare for All. The healthcare providers remain privatized. The payment for those services are instead paid by the govt using the pool of funds collected by employers in the form of a payroll tax and individuals who pay a 4% tax on income (exempting the first 29K of earnings). The two are very, very different. The entire point of medicare for all is to eliminate the middle man (private insurance) and lower administration of the various insurance plans. By eliminating a lot of waste of human labor for administration and eliminating the profit motive by offering insurance plans that do not cover all services, you are lowering the total cost of healthcare per capita. That is the only logical thing to do in a society that is living longer than ever with increased healthcare needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmonzter 2,864 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 3 hours ago, littlepotter said: I do actually, he is the frontrunner after all and thy're all trying to dethrone him We'll his poll numbers are rising post debate So I might've been wrong But I ain't happy about it Sing C'est la vie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmonzter 2,864 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 13 hours ago, Woolfsmck said: That is a 'radical' shift and will damage several parts of the economy … Maybe I am blind But How? Humor Me Sing C'est la vie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woolfsmck 2,763 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, HorusRa2 said: Ok. Stop right there. Medicare for All is not govt operated healthcare. That would be nationalized medicine which is closer to the UK system than Medicare for All. The healthcare providers remain privatized. The payment for those services are instead paid by the govt using the pool of funds collected by employers in the form of a payroll tax and individuals who pay a 4% tax on income (exempting the first 29K of earnings). The two are very, very different. The entire point of medicare for all is to eliminate the middle man (private insurance) and lower administration of the various insurance plans. By eliminating a lot of waste of human labor for administration and eliminating the profit motive by offering insurance plans that do not cover all services, you are lowering the total cost of healthcare per capita. That is the only logical thing to do in a society that is living longer than ever with increased healthcare needs. Good points .. not sure if the goals are attainable however... Its worth following this topic in the news ... like a cat in a sil, I observe life, moving and still. My words give a clue,look inside to see whats true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woolfsmck 2,763 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Lilmonzter said: Maybe I am blind But How? Humor Me All of the employed, and related business ventures will suddenly be shut down … The money that they spend in the economy is now redirected thru the gov. redistributed …. Its a domino effect no matter what part of the economy is tampered with... Insurance regulation is a better option than simply shutting them down and reopening a gov. agency to cover it ... Just the information logistics is daunting counsidering the 'millions' of people affected. like a cat in a sil, I observe life, moving and still. My words give a clue,look inside to see whats true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmonzter 2,864 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 16 minutes ago, Woolfsmck said: All of the employed, and related business ventures will suddenly be shut down … The money that they spend in the economy is now redirected thru the gov. redistributed …. Its a domino effect no matter what part of the economy is tampered with... Insurance regulation is a better option than simply shutting them down and reopening a gov. agency to cover it ... Just the information logistics is daunting counsidering the 'millions' of people affected. There's no statistical substance to any of your arguments It's all basic speculation on how you think it will affect or how the rather complex logistics maybe detrimental to the proposal. And bringing in some regulation to keep the businesses in check might be a good thing. Sing C'est la vie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woolfsmck 2,763 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Just now, Lilmonzter said: There's no statistical substance to any of your arguments It's all basic speculation on how you think it will affect or how the rather complex logistics maybe detrimental to the proposal. And bringing in some regulation to keep the businesses in check might be a good thing. I don't need statistical verification … Health Care insurance is a hugely profitable business... Shutting it down or anything with that many assets running thru it will in fact have an big economic impact . Statistic's would back that idea up if it were necessary to do so … I could care less if you believe 'me' or not... like a cat in a sil, I observe life, moving and still. My words give a clue,look inside to see whats true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmonzter 2,864 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 10 minutes ago, Woolfsmck said: I don't need statistical verification … Health Care insurance is a hugely profitable business... Shutting it down or anything with that many assets running thru it will in fact have an big economic impact . Statistic's would back that idea up if it were necessary to do so … I could care less if you believe 'me' or not... This is not about beliefs It's about convincing people your position on the issue I kind of get the effect of private insurance sector and the impact it will contribute to the economy if it is erased. But I don't think shutting down is what they are proposing Btw scaremongering about m4a is not very unfair. People die without basical medical care in America and bringing something like National Healthcareif it could save life's is better than economical impact you talking about. Everyone covered everyone taken care of irrespective of socioeconomic status. Sing C'est la vie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woolfsmck 2,763 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 2 hours ago, Lilmonzter said: People die without basical medical care in America and bringing something like National Healthcareif it could save life's is better than economical impact you talking about. Everyone covered everyone taken care of irrespective of socioeconomic status. This is the problem at front and center .. 'for profit' insurance could care less about it too... I am simply pointing out that to 'change' ...is gonna take time ...educating people without panic emergency scenario tactics will work a lot better imo.... like a cat in a sil, I observe life, moving and still. My words give a clue,look inside to see whats true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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