Joaquin Phoenix Rescues Mother Cow and Newborn Calf Day after Academy Award

[Guest]

What have I started 

[sarahb 16,546]

Ooh we're at the biology part of the debate 

[Earthling 3,688]

2 hours ago, xoxo Craig said:

And does our stomachs look like that? Nope

 

edit: Chimpanzees actually hunt other animals for meat

 

Yeah I know. But that's only between 2-6% of their diet. No one is saying it isn't natural to eat meat, but it's ridiculous to suggest we're supposed to be carnivorous when we're more similar to omni-frugivores.

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

2 hours ago, Thomas P said:

These threads are so frustrating, Alexa play what does the fox say

Honestly though, that song is lowkey a bop

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

18 minutes ago, Earthling said:

Yeah I know. But that's only between 2-6% of their diet. No one is saying it isn't natural to eat meat, but it's ridiculous to suggest we're supposed to be carnivorous when we're more similar to omni-frugivores.

Naturally, around 75-80% of our diet was (and really should be) from animals products like meats, fats and organs. Very little of it was plant matter. Plant matter like fruits were used to give the body a sudden burst of energy, but we certainly didn't eat mostly plant matter. It was mostly meat

[Earthling 3,688]

20 minutes ago, xoxo Craig said:

Naturally, around 75-80% of our diet was (and really should be) from animals products like meats, fats and organs. Very little of it was plant matter. Plant matter like fruits were used to give the body a sudden burst of energy, but we certainly didn't eat mostly plant matter. It was mostly meat

Most certainly?? No. They diet of our early ancestors varied widely depending on the available foods.

What is true is that our diets changed faster than our digestive systems could evolve to optimise  with. Leading to metabolic syndromes at the root of heart disease, stroke and diabetes.  Just because we scavanged and hunted meat doesn't mean it's the most optimal for human health.

[StrawberryBlond 14,689]

On 2/21/2020 at 11:29 PM, Glamourpuss said:

I think it's pretty clear that in first world countries the cows wouldn't be freely roaming like that. Can you really imagine them just being set free to roam around cities and cross over motorways. 

It is true that some people who try veganism and give up weren't eating properly and sourcing the right nutrients. It's a common problem. But it takes time for your body to adjust to a new diet and new types of food.

But you're right that every body is different and some people can't tolerate certain types of food. 

What's the solution, then, if vegans don't want them to be farmed, thus, kept in enclosed fields? Vegan perspective on whether humans should own pets is mixed but even those who think it's fine seem to be of the idea that pets should be relegated to cats, dogs, that kind of thing, but anything bigger, especially "farmyard animals" should be free to roam. They're always lamenting the loss of cow's freedom by saying things like "they're the most enslaved species in the world because apart from India, wild cows don't exist. If you see a cow wandering around in the Western world, a farmer is looking for that cow." Sounds like they want them all to be free, is what I'm saying.

True, some vegans weren't eating correctly, I've heard of some of them living off fries and salad, a very poor idea of nutrition. And they have to take supplements to get the stuff they're not getting from animal products. It's a very ironic thing to be told that veganism is the diet humans are supposed to eat, the most natural diet of all time...yet they're eating a bunch of processed man-made frankenfoods and taking a bunch of man-made supplements to get all their required nutrients. But all that aside, some of them do it correctly and it still doesn't work out of them - they're lethargic, dull-eyed, have hair falling out, are constantly hungry, always needing a toilet nearby, even suffering tooth decay from all the sugary fruit they're eating. I've seen cases of vegans with severe problems, a lot of them are orthorexics, complete with a skeletal rib cage. It's high time vegans understood that this is a very  restricted, extreme lifestyle choice and like all restricted, extreme lifestyle choices, it only works for a favoured few. They should be very concerned that there's such a high amount of anorexics taking interest in their diet, particularly raw food ones, because it sells you the idea that you can eat as many calories as you want but stay skinny. I think veganism is being used as a cover for anorexia more than vegans would care to admit.

[Didymus 34,379]

4 hours ago, xoxo Craig said:

Naturally, around 75-80% of our diet was (and really should be) from animals products like meats, fats and organs. Very little of it was plant matter. Plant matter like fruits were used to give the body a sudden burst of energy, but we certainly didn't eat mostly plant matter. It was mostly meat

Seriously what the F-CK man Every recent study has shown that our human ancestors were mostly vegetarian and thrived on a variety of fruits, nuts, vegetables and leaves, supplemented rarely with meat. This is the same for all primates with digestive systems like ours, and it has been the same for the last millions of years.

The fact that our digestive systems did not adapt in any special way to cope with meat is proof that meat was never a substantial part of our diet, and definitely not the majority of our food intake (the fact that our digestive systems did adapt in such a special way to deal with fermented/cooked food and lactose would be further confirmation).

I really want to know what your sources are for your information, I literally can find no trace of what you're saying in scientific publications

[Didymus 34,379]

11 hours ago, xoxo Craig said:

Many people who go onto a carnivore diet say that it clears all the skin conditions up and they all feel much better after cutting out plants. Why? Because suddenly they are getting all the correct vitamins and minerals, and their hormones are all in balance. Completely they opposite when they were plant based.

So that's supposed to be a good argument when there's thousands of claims of people that describe the opposite? Ok.

9 hours ago, xoxo Craig said:

Your body is supposed to run on fats, not glucose. Glucose burns much quicker than fats, so why would we run on Glucose? For short spurts of energy, yes glucose can be used. But the best fuel to keep you going is fats.

What fats are you talking about though? I'm a vegan and I eat plenty of fats, from nuts and seeds to their oils, to avocados. There's no scientist out there who has ever denied that these sources of fat are absolutely superior to animal (i.e. saturated) fats, so... Again, super weird argument that's in no way supported by the scientific community.

Every recent study published on this matter has shown unambiguously that saturated fats are super damaging to people's health, while unsaturated fats (such as those found in nuts, seeds and vegetables) are not. So you're not wrong per se, but the fact that you're defending the most unhealthy fats out there (the ones found in animal products) is contradicting everything you're trying to say. It's vegans who are consuming the best fats and carnivores who are poisoning their bodies with the worst ones.

Etc. etc. whatever, man, this is a waste of time. Carry on believing what you're believing but don't pretend you're backed up by science.

[Didymus 34,379]

Just one source that should shut you up about this fats subject:

"the source of the fat appears to make a difference. That's according to researchers at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, who studied dietary data from more than 90,000 people over an average of 22 years. Heart disease risk was lower when unhealthy saturated fat, refined carbohydrates, or trans fat was replaced by plant-based monounsaturated fat, but not by animal-based monounsaturated fat. Higher intake of the plant-based fats was associated with a 16% lower risk of dying from any cause. In contrast, higher intake of the animal-based fats was linked to a 21% higher risk of dying from any cause.

The study, published in March 2018 in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, lends further support to the health benefits of a plant-based diet."

Source

Basically goes even further than what I was saying above: even unsaturated fats from animal products can ultimately be fatal for your health. So even the best type of fats from a carnivorous diets are still gonna kill you. Why are you so adamant that these are the fats people should go to for the "majority" of their diets?

[Earthling 3,688]

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

they're lethargic, dull-eyed, have hair falling out, are constantly hungry, always needing a toilet nearby, even suffering tooth decay from all the sugary fruit they're eating.

Go to a vegan potluck some time and meet real vegans

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

They should be very concerned that there's such a high amount of anorexics taking interest in their diet, particularly raw food ones, because it sells you the idea that you can eat as many calories as you want but stay skinny.

Because showing anorexics not to be fearful of calories is bad? Teaching them to love food again and properly nurture their bodies while easily maintaining a healthy weight is bad? Yes 100% raw is difficult to get enough calories on unless you live in a tropical fruit paradise, that's why most vegans promote eating cooked starches and grains in high abundance. 

[StrawberryBlond 14,689]

14 hours ago, Earthling said:

Go to a vegan potluck some time and meet real vegans

Because showing anorexics not to be fearful of calories is bad? Teaching them to love food again and properly nurture their bodies while easily maintaining a healthy weight is bad? Yes 100% raw is difficult to get enough calories on unless you live in a tropical fruit paradise, that's why most vegans promote eating cooked starches and grains in high abundance. 

What's the definition of a real vegan, though? There's so many ways to do it, so why can one be more real than the other? As long as you're not eating animal products, you're a vegan, so there shouldn't be any sort of hierarchy. It can come down to a lot of who has the most money as well. Vegan diets can be very elitist in the sense that you can only truly thrive on it if you have the money for it. To have access to a large variety of vegan foods, a constant supply of fruit and veg, a blender, expensive bottles of daily supplements, expensive food replacements, possibly a vegan meal delivery service and lots of time on your hands to prepare all your food from scratch requires a certain sort of income and free time, which a lot of people don't have. So, the only one who truly do well are the wealthy ones. Not much of a "natural" diet that everyone can live by, right?

This is not teaching them to be open to calories. Wanting to eat only foods with the lowest amount of calories and being afraid of putting on weight if you consume too many is the definition of being fearful of calories and this is what raw veganism feeds into. You can't immediately start saying you don't do that kind of living as soon as the topic comes up. As a vegan, you should stand by the teachings of all forms of vegan diets, you shouldn't start to change the subject any time a painful truth about one of them comes up. If veganism is so healthy, why are there so many ways you can easily do something wrong? A diet with such military precision and relying on such a delicate balancing act between healthy and unhealthy must be more than a bit questionable. I saw a great quote about veganism the other day that sums up how I feel about it (or any form of extreme diet, really): "When feeding yourself becomes a full time job, you know you have a problem."

[Glamourpuss 29,062]

On 2/23/2020 at 10:29 PM, xoxo Craig said:

 

On the vegan diet, you don't get all the correct vitamins and minerals. And because you are starving yourself of those vitamins, you get more and more frail... unless you take 60+ different supplements just to try and absorb all the things you need. The "vegan" strong man posted a video of him consuming 8 protein shakes, plus 30 (x3) supplement tablets... idk about you but thats not healthy.

He's a body builder. A normal person wouldn't consume that much protein but he requires it for muscle growth. 

He's probably making himself unhealthy because of his extreme workout regimen. He's not a good example of all vegans but he seems healthy enough. 

[Earthling 3,688]

6 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

What's the definition of a real vegan, though? There's so many ways to do it, so why can one be more real than the other? As long as you're not eating animal products, you're a vegan, so there shouldn't be any sort of hierarchy. It can come down to a lot of who has the most money as well. Vegan diets can be very elitist in the sense that you can only truly thrive on it if you have the money for it. To have access to a large variety of vegan foods, a constant supply of fruit and veg, a blender, expensive bottles of daily supplements, expensive food replacements, possibly a vegan meal delivery service and lots of time on your hands to prepare all your food from scratch requires a certain sort of income and free time, which a lot of people don't have. So, the only one who truly do well are the wealthy ones. Not much of a "natural" diet that everyone can live by, right?

This is not teaching them to be open to calories. Wanting to eat only foods with the lowest amount of calories and being afraid of putting on weight if you consume too many is the definition of being fearful of calories and this is what raw veganism feeds into. You can't immediately start saying you don't do that kind of living as soon as the topic comes up. As a vegan, you should stand by the teachings of all forms of vegan diets, you shouldn't start to change the subject any time a painful truth about one of them comes up. If veganism is so healthy, why are there so many ways you can easily do something wrong? A diet with such military precision and relying on such a delicate balancing act between healthy and unhealthy must be more than a bit questionable. I saw a great quote about veganism the other day that sums up how I feel about it (or any form of extreme diet, really): "When feeding yourself becomes a full time job, you know you have a problem."

Your perspective on veganism is so warped that's why I told you to go and hang out with actual vegans. I wasn't referring to a hierarchy just the fact there's a difference between some of the ways vegans are portrayed online (or at least the idea you have) versus what we're actually like in real life. Also a "vegan meal delivery service"?? It's not that hard to cook vegan meals, it's the same as any normal cooking just omitting meat, dairy and eggs. You make it sound like rocket science when all you're doing is using different ingredients. 

Also why do I have to stand by ALL forms of vegan teaching as a vegan?? I stand by the approach I believe works the best for most people. People can be raw fruitarian if they want, there's nothing wrong with that but I'm not going to say that's a diet everyone should strive to follow because it can be challenging to sustain and get enough calories on. Also I'm not going to promote a highly-processed, high protein/high fat vegan diet either because I don't think it's optimal.

I literally said veganism can teach anorexics to not be fearful of food. Rice, potatoes, pasta aren't the lowest calorie foods. HCLF veganism teaches the opposite of being fearful of eating too much and weight gain. There's no such thing as calorie counting on a primarily whole-food vegan diet except to GET ENOUGH calories. Can't you see how veganism can turn a negative relationship with food into a positive one??

There is no delicate balancing act. Sure yes you plan and make sure you're roughly hitting nutrient targets but then you get into a rhythm. There's a learning curve to anything new. Stop making veganism seem so impossible. YES having a lot of time and money makes it easier, but eating a healthy, varied diet always requires that whether you're vegan or not. If you're poor you have fewer options, that's life, but don't act like that's exclusive to veganism.

[high heeled fem 3]

On 2/24/2020 at 12:34 AM, Didymus said:

This is what you call "unbiased science"?

Couldn't be further from the truth. Not only is this statement widely debunked by scientific studies, I can speak from my experience that my vitamin and mineral intake has never been higher.

The delusion that high levels of sugar in fruit causes diabetes has also been debunked multiple times. In fact, a fruitarian diet actually stabilizes hospitalized diabetics. Again: you're spreading lies.

I'm also dying to read about those examples of a carnivorous diet reversing cancer Also, Steve Jobs did not start a fruitarian diet because he had cancer He just maintained his fruitarian habits after he was diagnosed. Again, pure lies. There is no link between a fruitarian diet and pancreatic cancer, and if you execute a fruitarian diet well (which, admittedly, is not easy), there is no health risk either.

But here you really showed your ignorance:

This is 100% false and it has recently been popularly debunked in the acclaimed documentary The Game Changers where scientists show that it's actually animal protein which has high levels of oestrogen and which decreases testosterone levels

Again: get your eyes away from whatever pro-meat lobby blog you're on and actually read the research.

There is absolutely no link between eczema and plant-based diets In fact, many people report these skin conditions to improve after they cut out animal protein from their diet. This is because many plant-based foods contain omega-3 fatty acids, which some believe improves these skin conditions.

So again: pure lies. Not surprised. Don't believe this dude.

Thank u I love this