Spiked on Sam Smith: "You're still a he"

[Bio 23,538]

58 minutes ago, Ally the Maine said:

Why does it have to be the entire bloody alphabet? Okay I will be quite blunt and honest now, people are just making up new things as a craze in all honesty, it’s like those people that used to be like “I’m bi” just so that they’d fit in even though they’d never had any encounters with the same sex and the thought of it didn’t really appeal to them they just wanted to follow the new “trend” as it were. Can it not be kept as simple as; man, woman, trans, gay, straight, bi... is it that difficult? Male anatomy includes a penis and female anatomy includes a vagina, if you’re trans and you identify as your desired sex then okay, I’ll accept that, but to say you have no biological gender, it’s ridiculous. It’s basically saying you’re a sexless being with no anatomy. I just can’t 

Look guys, a person who doesn't know the difference between sex and gender! Take pics fast!

[cjdamien 198]

It seems to me the problem is not that it's confusing for Sam Smith to say he is neither gender but that the problem is society's insistence on perpetuating outdated gender roles and definitions. I agree with Spike on the issues relating to how people are perceived - if I do not know someone and they look like a man, I am going to think they are a man and refer to them with male pronouns. Someone who identifies as a man giving birth can be confusing to most people as the article points out. I think it is more important to remove the sex and gender roles from each other; we need to be ok with the idea that males can be mothers and females can be fathers. I think the focus on pronouns is creating more "theys" than "us" and is resulting in more segregation and separation and "differentness" than if we instead just focused on referring to everyone as human beings and leaving it at that. Just like lumping everyone into the LGBTQIA+ umbrella, only we include EVERYONE. Maybe eventually we will develop a universal pronoun and stop expecting people to behave a certain way because of what is between their legs. Gender and sexuality are both on spectrums and most people are a little bit of both; this issue is  a symptom of people trying to figure out how to express both without feeling the pressure to conform to their genitalia. The other part of the problem is the issue with validation; I agree with spike that no one has the right to demand validation for their feelings from all of society but I do not agree that this is simply a validation seeking behavior; rather than people rebelling against these societal pressures. 

[Chromaticunt 5,529]

2 hours ago, Miel said:

It is LITERALLY crazy to me that so many people- in the case of this site, GAY men- are intentionally and wilfully ignorant regarding trans- and nonbinary- issues. 

A lot of them need to check their privilege and learn their LGBTQ+ history. Our sexualities were once diagnosed as mental disorders. We were jailed, institutionalized, received shock treatment, were put in work camps, and killed for being different. Now we are finally starting to be accepted in Western countries (let's not forget we would still receive the death penalty in some parts of the world) and yet these stupid little twinks with their internalized self-hatred project their insecurities onto other people WITHIN THEIR OWN COMMUNITY who class themselves differently. It's pathetic how uneducated they are. And their ignorance is their own fault, because we have to learn about it ourselves. F*ck are they going to teach it in schools. 

You are PRIVILEGED to be walking the streets in your pink cut-off tank tops and your Haus Beauty make-up bought exclusively on Amazon. You are NOT in any position to be judging the way someone identifies, or saying what is and isn't real. We had to FIGHT for our equality, and we had to SUFFER for people to just recognise homosexuality as "real". So we should not be telling Sam Smith or anyone in our community how they should identify. Check yourself and do your homework, you entitled sewer rats. 

[ear condom 964]

 

[ear condom 964]

[Sugar Baby 772]

2 hours ago, Kapi09 said:

It is crazy...  If you look at some person you know if it is a boy or girl. When you want to talk with someone on street you dont ask about gender because you know it... And you know if you should use "he" or "she".

If he want to talk about himself in a diffrent way, it is ok. But we shouldnt force anyone to think in the same way. 

For me HE is a 100% men. 

This like and people wonder why everyone is so annoyed and confused with the whole LGBTTTQQASFBGKB+++ thing 

 

[Lady Rah Rah 1,990]

I don't mind anyone identifying in whichever they want, as long as I can comfortably identify as a woman/she/her/female. I say this because some non-binary people want EVERYONE to become non-binary too and find it offensive when others want to refer to themselves as their assigned sex.

[StrawberryBlond 14,544]

They may have put this down in a very blunt way that's perhaps a little offensive but it sends the message home. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what's going on with your personal identification system, as long as you are happy to keep the anatomy you were born with and not go through any hormonal changes or surgical changes to make you appear otherwise, then you have to accept that you are your biological sex, society will see you as your biological sex and what's going on in your head is your personal issues to deal with. No one should have to go through life memorising everyone's pronouns if this becomes more widespread. At the end of the day, your personal identification should only be of importance to those closest to you and everyone else shouldn't have to be bothered by it, it should by no means be foisted on society. And while people of non-conforming gender identities have been around since the dawn of time, you can't deny that there were never as many of them around as there are now. The last few years has brought them all out the woodwork which suggests that the majority are exaggerating and convincing themselves that they are uncomfortable with their gender when they're not and are just following a trend. People weren't aware you could be all these identities some years ago, so they got on with life as normal. It's only now that it's becoming more normalised are people questioning things they never did before and it shows in the sheer amount of them who are jumping on this bandwagon.

1 hour ago, PartySick said:

So the physical differences between men and women can be synthetically altered, reproduced, or substituted so why are they even that important?  

The way that society treats you gives you that answer. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against being trans and transitioning if it's a genuine case and the person in question is willing to take the hormonal and surgical (if possible) steps to become their true gender. But there are certain kinds of people out there who are clearly just looking for attention and jumping on a trend and haven't even been formally diagnosed. There is no way I want a biological man, who has no intention of transitioning in any way, shape or form using female bathrooms, speaking for females on certain issues, claims he knows all there is to know about being female and wanting to be seen as much of a woman as I am. I find that an offence to my womanhood.

[Akiki 3,900]

4 hours ago, JINNOCIDE said:

I--  

yes the LGBT community isn't an organization and that's exactly why it should embrace people overtime

 

do you remember the term GLS? when the community only embraced gays, lesbians and people who were allies to the cause? missing someone? yeah, trans people weren't even explicit on the term. what did we do? we learned and grew from it. now we have a better term, and it can grow and change.

 

also LGBT isn't just about sexuality??? trans is about gender and how a person may not feel right in their body. it has nothing to do with sexuality

 

so saying non binary people shouldn't even be on the LGBT flag is an ignorant statement, yes

Trans  is about sex reassignment. Don't fool yourself with the trans umbrella rethoric. Non-binary just found a easy way to jump start they gender campaign by hoping on the lgbt train. 

[Akiki 3,900]

36 minutes ago, cjdamien said:

It seems to me the problem is not that it's confusing for Sam Smith to say he is neither gender but that the problem is society's insistence on perpetuating outdated gender roles and definitions. I agree with Spike on the issues relating to how people are perceived - if I do not know someone and they look like a man, I am going to think they are a man and refer to them with male pronouns. Someone who identifies as a man giving birth can be confusing to most people as the article points out. I think it is more important to remove the sex and gender roles from each other; we need to be ok with the idea that males can be mothers and females can be fathers. I think the focus on pronouns is creating more "theys" than "us" and is resulting in more segregation and separation and "differentness" than if we instead just focused on referring to everyone as human beings and leaving it at that. Just like lumping everyone into the LGBTQIA+ umbrella, only we include EVERYONE. Maybe eventually we will develop a universal pronoun and stop expecting people to behave a certain way because of what is between their legs. Gender and sexuality are both on spectrums and most people are a little bit of both; this issue is  a symptom of people trying to figure out how to express both without feeling the pressure to conform to their genitalia. The other part of the problem is the issue with validation; I agree with spike that no one has the right to demand validation for their feelings from all of society but I do not agree that this is simply a validation seeking behavior; rather than people rebelling against these societal pressures. 

Sorry but  no. Father is male and mother is male. You can't throw patriarchy or matriarchy out of the windows just because someone thinks it's cool to do gender bending like it's avatar. 

 

[LordEnigma 11,313]

2 hours ago, fathermonster said:

You want people to understand this "third gender" but don't post any information or experience about it. Interesting.  please tell us what this means. I'm curious to know what the third gender is and what if feels like to be part of it. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

8 hours ago, sampool said:

99.9% of the people I met in real life find the whole non-binary concept to be ridiculous and laughable, and that’s coming from someone who lives in California, a Democratic state. 

If you wanna call more than half of the nation (safe to assume) rude, ignorant, uneducated...all the words you use as defense mechanism for someone who doesn’t share your beliefs, then wow you must be in the uniquely smart, progressive minority.

Are you really arguing that because you know a lot of people that think like you in a state of almost 40 million (a bit over 1/10th of America) that means over half of the nation is of the same mind?  I know many many democratic socialists and I live in Missouri, a red state  

Thats the definition of extrapolating anecdotal evidence to fit your claim.

~~~

But anyway, Yes. I would. I don't care about mincing words, most people are racist, transphobic, ignorant etc. That's how those systems work - people either explicitly or tacitly buy into and perpetuate them. It's sociology. That's why trans people, people of color, etc. are minorities - its not just demographics and population numbers.  I'll be kind and assume that most are simply ignorant, not actively malicious on a plethora of social issues... For my own bit of anecdotal evidence, most people have trouble coming around to using they/them, or even referring to binary trans people by their preferred pronoun, but they try and eventually do because its rude and becoming less and less socially acceptable to blatantly disrespect gender non conforming people and the vast majority of people, anywhere want to be seen as somewhat socially accepted and amicable to others... because that's how communities work.

The only people I've ever met in my 22 years of life that won't are free speech warriors who don't care about being rude and have other conservative attitudes *read, uninformed or misinformed* about things like gender, sex, etc.

[Akiki 3,900]

6 minutes ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

most people are racist, transphobic, ignorant etc.

 

damn... thank god you were a "lucky one"

 

It's laughable how people call 99.999% of people to be racist, transphobic and ignorant just to keep this bullshit trend alive. 

You are not that special either, honey. Don't act like you are better than the rest 

[ChromeAngel 3,230]

12 hours ago, SlaeUrAnus said:

I personally don’t see a problem with Sam wanting to be called this pronoun. If you all are so invested in someone else decisions in life, I’d suggest you log off to be fair 

The only issue I see here is if someone accidentally calls Sam a ‘him’, which I would imagine a mass majority of the world still would. 

Is it really ignorant if we accidentally forget that they want to be called ‘they’? Aren’t our brains wired to firstly assume ones male and female identity based on physical appearance and what is ‘requested’ from society? 

I don’t think anyone “so invested” in Sams life. It IS important to be able to have open discussion. When topics become off limits- that’s a sign that something is wrong with a society. Conversation is important to both sides of the argument. How do you expect to change anyone’s mind without even speaking to the opposing side? 

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

26 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

They may have put this down in a very blunt way that's perhaps a little offensive but it sends the message home. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what's going on with your personal identification system, as long as you are happy to keep the anatomy you were born with and not go through any hormonal changes or surgical changes to make you appear otherwise, then you have to accept that you are your biological sex, society will see you as your biological sex and what's going on in your head is your personal issues to deal with. No one should have to go through life memorising everyone's pronouns if this becomes more widespread. At the end of the day, your personal identification should only be of importance to those closest to you and everyone else shouldn't have to be bothered by it, it should by no means be foisted on society. And while people of non-conforming gender identities have been around since the dawn of time, you can't deny that there were never as many of them around as there are now. The last few years has brought them all out the woodwork which suggests that the majority are exaggerating and convincing themselves that they are uncomfortable with their gender when they're not and are just following a trend. People weren't aware you could be all these identities some years ago, so they got on with life as normal. It's only now that it's becoming more normalised are people questioning things they never did before and it shows in the sheer amount of them who are jumping on this bandwagon.

The way that society treats you gives you that answer. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against being trans and transitioning if it's a genuine case and the person in question is willing to take the hormonal and surgical (if possible) steps to become their true gender. But there are certain kinds of people out there who are clearly just looking for attention and jumping on a trend and haven't even been formally diagnosed. There is no way I want a biological man, who has no intention of transitioning in any way, shape or form using female bathrooms, speaking for females on certain issues, claims he knows all there is to know about being female and wanting to be seen as much of a woman as I am. I find that an offence to my womanhood.

A few points here.

1) You're misunderstanding gender and sex here. No trans person or non binary person is biologically a different sex. Trans women are Not biologically women, they have never claimed to be one. Their GENDER IDENTITY is woman, non binary, etc. and that informs their expression, perception, and way of going about the world. A fully passing, "stealth" trans woman in the bathroom still has xy chromosomes, the point is that NEITHER sex nor gender is simply defined by a singular aspect of biology, scientifically and societally. I

2) A lot of your overall tone here isn't "blunt" its offensive, which is an interesting stance to take on something you are misinformed about. I'm genderqueer. I don't have "personal issues" with my gender, I am very comfortable with myself, the only problem is that society has regressive and prescribed binary gender roles, and we've known gender is a spectrum and a social construct for many many many years now  Like since the beginning of recorded time they have been constructed, and thus malleable.

3) "Memorizing" things is hard is... a weak argument when you consider like the 1% population # of gender non conforming people... You might meet like 10 or 20 or so non binary people that use they/them in your life let's say... Is it actually *tangibly* that hard to respect the pronouns of a few people that the average person has not met and has no frame of reference for outside of stereotypes? They might not even be your friends just people you meet around things... This is extra tbh. It takes the same amount of mental energy for me to remember not to bring up my political beliefs around my conservative friends, or to avoid calling certain people by annoying nicknames they do not like... It's not hard, and there's no hand of society Forcing you to do anything here. (Fun fact: When you accept someone for the gender and pronouns they claim to be, you don't have to MEMORIZE anything, its funny how the brain works really. I accept my gnc friends as they are, and thus don't have to think about memorizing things, I just appropriately call them what they are. It's only when our monkey brains have gut reactions that people are likely to slip up, but you being a sentient human in the 21st century can easily override that) 

4) On the point of it only being important to people close to and around you... You're mostly correct. Gender non conforming people aren't completely lacking in self-awareness... I have dozens of gnc friends (myself included) and none of us have EVER gotten mad at a stranger for not calling us they/them (I go by he/him btw) because that doesn't make any sense and we were raised in the same binary society as you were, so we know how people think because we were raised to think the same. HOWEVER: When someone decides to come out so to speak in their local community or social circle and say 'I go by x/x pronouns" it is them asking for basic respect from the people they care about. The decision not to call them by that only matters there.  This is what Sam Smith has done, albeit on a larger scale because of their celebrity and im sure they asked their closer circles first.

5) Your skepticism about the veracity of recent trans people and gender non conforming people is... unfounded?

The same way that there didn't used to be a popular, positive identifier for homosexuality, bisexuality, etc. there was not a word for trans and gnc people that was affirming, so it is actually quite logical that awareness and representation for something will eventually increase the number of people who feel like these words define or relate to them. The media pushes this idea that trans activists and representation in non binary people will make people "come out of the woodworks" (that phrase has a history of a negative connotation by the way) and it's really bizarre to me. It sounds like you think many people would voluntarily choose to be part of a marginalized group and live lives that are inauthentic to themselves for a trend... which really flies against all evidence of how most human beings work  There will be some the way there are some people that follow trends in all walks of life, but not so sizeable a chunk to be a statistically significant portion, not that we could ever measure it in the first place. It's not a bandwagoning, if you've met trans people and gnc people you'll see that they just like you want to live their lives in a dignified and honest way and choose to express themselves fully as such because it leads to overall quality of life improvement and self-actualization in the long run.

6)  Kind of related to point 5, but transgenderism is not defined by passing, nor is it solely defined by gender dysphoria, a word that's been missing from many posts in here for some reason. This sounds like Blaire White's argument, but its not the reality. Even the medical and psychological field recognizes that one does not need to feel gender dysphoria or a certain degree to be Trans and include non binary identities... It's 2019. Referring back to point 4, people that do not pass are not stupid, they know what they look like and how they act, and they don't expect random strangers to guess their gender identity correctly if they do not present as. However, this doesn't make them not trans, etc. The requirement of "formal diagnosis" is really problematic tbh. Not everyone can afford that, doctors, psychiatrists, etc. are still biased humans in 2019 and I've heard many of a case of "legitimate" trans people being denied access to hormones, surgery, etc. because their doctors have a misunderstanding of trans issues. Also, its very expensive to transition surgically. Social transition is equally as important as surgical transition when it comes to alleviating gender dysphoria.

The recurring theme in each of my points stems from this: 

You aren't giving trans and gender non conforming people the respect they deserve, your positions mostly come from a place of thinking you know more about THEM, THEIR bodies, and THEIR beliefs and actions. It's never wise to assume you know more about people that you are Not, and this case isn't special.