Sam Smith changes their pronouns to they/them

[ear condom 964]

12 minutes ago, Dex said:

It should tell you something: That asking every single person to change how they use their language around you is more absurd than a meat dress.

 

If he feels shame over his (lack of)masculinity, that is his problem entirely and we shouldn't have to pander to him. Reminder that there is no evidence whatsoever that people are born gay/dysphoric.

[TheQueenLG 2,469]

26 minutes ago, Dex said:

If he feels shame over his (lack of)masculinity, that is his problem entirely and we shouldn't have to pander to him. Reminder that there is no evidence whatsoever that people are born gay/dysphoric.

Someone's feminine/masculine traits (or gender expression, if you will) play a role in someone's gender identity, but these traits do not decide someone's gender identity. A biological male can be a transgender woman yet still have many masculine traits... Someone's gender identity is to some degree detached from how they express what society constructs to be feminine or masculine. Sam Smith's non-binary gender identity and they/them preferred pronoun is pertinent to their gender identity... His 'lack of masculinity' is at least somewhat beside the point. 

[Mirrion Rizzons 10,705]

makes me sad how tons of monsters hate him for no apparent reason.

It wasn't his fault that gaga didn't get an oscar for Til It happens to you

I totally respect Them!

[LM 4,063]

7 hours ago, Mirrion Rizzons said:

makes me sad how tons of monsters hate him for no apparent reason.

It wasn't his fault that gaga didn't get an oscar for Til It happens to you

I totally respect Them!

[ctherainbow 3,162]

Okay, so I am arguably one of the most hick people on this forum, and was raised outside a conservative Christian town of seven houses... but when one of my friends told me they were non-binary, it only took me about a month to learn to refer to them as “they”.  It’s really not hard, and though I don’t entirely understand the decision to exist outside gender, they are my friend, and I love them, and it was not hard to be kind and adopt language that made a very real difference in their stress level.  

That’s what I don’t understand about the replies here; who cares if Sam is changing their gender to seek attention?  If that was actually the case, then you all being in an uproar over their personal decision is giving them the attention you think they’re seeking.  If your reaction was “oh, okay, cool”, and you moved on with your life, if they were being a fake attention-seeker, they would be starved of the attention they’re looking for and drop the act.  But if they are in fact authentically non-binary, and you’re all publicly ripping into them for a personal decision that affects your life not at all(realistically, when are you going to meet Sam Smith and have to remember to refer to them as “they” while within earshot?), then you’re just being a jerk.  There are plenty of linguistic examples where “they”, “them”, “their”, and “they’re” are used in a singular fashion, and plenty of examples where people choose to use different language because of comfort level, even outside of gender and sexuality.

At the end of the day, it’s just not a big deal to learn pronouns.  If you respect Sam, then use their chosen pronouns.  If you don’t respect them, then don’t use their chosen pronouns, and though it is your right to free speech and your own linguistic path, if you cannot bring yourself to be kind to another human being, then I sincerely hope you do not procreate or mentor the next generation.    

Edit, because I thought of another point:  For those who are saying that non-binary people set back the fight to loosen the boundaries of gender... you don’t think that non-binary people are shining a spotlight on society having such tight and restrictive gender roles that people literally have to identify outside of gender to be comfortable as a human being? It would seem to me that even their existence helps with the fight to free people from gender roles.  I get that they could also be fighting from inside their assigned gender, but they’re still doing work outside of gender, and who are you to decide how they should be expressing their gender?   

I just don’t understand the “them creating a new category damages our entire community’s struggle” narrative.  If someone was going to identify as something extreme, like a dolphin(using this example because another poster brought this up), then yes, they could subject the community to ridicule.  But when a human chooses to identify outside a specific human social construct like gender, if some random person doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to dissect the separation between sex and gender and understand why someone might identify as non-binary, are we required to pander to that person and reject the non-binary person’s well-thought-out choice of identity simply because the ignorant person “doesn’t get/like it”, and chooses not to think about the topic of gender in depth?  For as much as the “why do we have to pander to non-binary people” attitude is being brought up, I have to wonder why those same people believe that their opinions about where gender begins and ends should be pandered to.    

[GagaMyBlood95 9,915]

If this is truly how they feel, we all need to respect it!

Spoiler

I still love the jokes in here though 

 

[phillipaf 685]

On 9/13/2019 at 5:46 PM, holy scheisse said:

Makes me wonder why there are gendered award categories in the first place. like "let's decide which person with a penis has the best song" or "which vagina had the biggest hit this year?"

so that they can give away more awards and boost raitings

[tomsches 17,373]

I mean, good for them. I'll always support and respect people doing whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt others.

From a linguist's point of view though, they are lucky that they have grown up in a society in which its language has gender neutral pronouns. How do non-binary people identify in languages like Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French, German etc. in which they/them either don't exist, are degrading or don't make any sense? Makes me feel like non-binary genders/gender neutrality can only be properly expressed in SOME societies in which they have these pronouns. 

I'm fine with calling somebody them if they choose to. But it will take me a lot to get used to it, because it still sounds weird to me. Language is always a reflection of how a society perceives reality. That's why in almost all languages there are 2 genders, because almost all people perceive our reality/humanity as consisting of 2 genders. Since binary genders are such a universal concept, it's extremely hard to impose something upon a language that the majority doesn't perceive as being part of their reality. 

[gagzus 15,772]

On 9/13/2019 at 4:51 PM, Versace said:

My opinion might be controversial but why can't he just identify as non-binary and allow people to refer to him as he or she. Like the "they" thing is so dramatic. You're a celebrity, you can't expect everyone you encounter from now on to know your pronoun preference. Sam needs to take notes from Ezra Miller. 

Because their experience isn’t the same as Ezra’s, same as Ezra’s and Sam’s wont be the same as another non-binary or gender nonconforming person’s experience famous or otherwise.

People who dont feel comfortable with a specific pronoun won’t be offended if you get it wrong the first time or by pure accident another time but if they correct you and consistently get it wrong it does come across disrespectful. Same as it would be offensive if a gay person came out and people kept pushing hetero stereotypes and assumptions on them.

I personally don’t think it’s that much effort to make someone feel comfortable, they’re not asking much imo. Slip ups are ok and not everyone is a tumblr SJW (which are mostly white gender conforming straight people anyway when you look at it) so take it seriously but also not seriously you know what I mean? ❤️

[Dex 117]

3 hours ago, tomsches said:

Makes me feel like non-binary genders/gender neutrality can only be properly expressed in SOME societies...

Yes, white societies. Have you noticed that?

18 hours ago, TheQueenLG said:

Someone's feminine/masculine traits (or gender expression, if you will) play a role in someone's gender identity, but these traits do not decide someone's gender identity. 

Your genitals dictate your gender identity. If you are born with a penis, it is your duty to be a man. If you are born with a vagina, it is your duty to be a woman. This is so that children have a strong male character for a father and a strong female character for a mother, because - you won't believe this - mothers and fathers have different, clear roles when it comes to raising a healthy(!) and well-rounded child. The mother is responsible for regulating the negative (hunger, thirst, pain) while the father is responsible for stimulating growth (take the kid outside and nurture its skills). People who don't have a stronger gender identity therefore make for weaker parents.

This is why when people pick and choose their own gender identity it leads to chaos, like it already is, partly by forcing radio presenters everywhere to alter their language for this one specific deluded pop star. I get he feels different, but he needs help to align himself with his body, not ask everybody to pander to his delusions. 

[tomsches 17,373]

22 minutes ago, Dex said:

Yes, white societies. Have you noticed that?

Your genitals dictate your gender identity. If you are born with a penis, it is your duty to be a man. If you are born with a vagina, it is your duty to be a woman. This is so that children have a strong male character for a father and a strong female character for a mother, because - you won't believe this - mothers and fathers have different, clear roles when it comes to raising a healthy(!) and well-rounded child. The mother is responsible for regulating the negative (hunger, thirst, pain) while the father is responsible for stimulating growth (take the kid outside and nurture its skills). People who don't have a stronger gender identity therefore make for weaker parents.

This is why when people pick and choose their own gender identity it leads to chaos, like it already is, partly by forcing radio presenters everywhere to alter their language for this one specific deluded pop star. I get he feels different, but he needs help to align himself with his body, not ask everybody to pander to his delusions. 

Read a book 

[Dex 117]

Just now, tomsches said:

Read a book 

Solid argument, you've completely changed my mind.

[NewUsername 11,349]

21 hours ago, Dex said:

It should tell you something: That asking every single person to change how they use their language around you is more absurd than a meat dress.

 

If he feels shame over his (lack of)masculinity, that is his problem entirely and we shouldn't have to pander to him. Reminder that there is no evidence whatsoever that people are born gay/dysphoric.

As said before by someone else: "it's not like Sam will throw coffee in your face if you say him"  They aren't demanding to be called them/their, it's more like a "hey, if you wouldn't mind, I feel more at ease if you refer to me as them/their". 

There's a difference between accidentally misgendering someone, not really know how to etc. and intentionally go out of your way to be all like "I'MmA cAlL yOu How I wAnT!" It's really not that difficult...

People use the word "pandering!" that easily, when it has like no to a very minor effect on your life, while it really means a lot to the other person.

[NewUsername 11,349]

8 hours ago, ctherainbow said:

Okay, so I am arguably one of the most hick people on this forum, and was raised outside a conservative Christian town of seven houses... but when one of my friends told me they were non-binary, it only took me about a month to learn to refer to them as “they”.  It’s really not hard, and though I don’t entirely understand the decision to exist outside gender, they are my friend, and I love them, and it was not hard to be kind and adopt language that made a very real difference in their stress level.  

That’s what I don’t understand about the replies here; who cares if Sam is changing their gender to seek attention?  If that was actually the case, then you all being in an uproar over their personal decision is giving them the attention you think they’re seeking.  If your reaction was “oh, okay, cool”, and you moved on with your life, if they were being a fake attention-seeker, they would be starved of the attention they’re looking for and drop the act.  But if they are in fact authentically non-binary, and you’re all publicly ripping into them for a personal decision that affects your life not at all(realistically, when are you going to meet Sam Smith and have to remember to refer to them as “they” while within earshot?), then you’re just being a jerk.  There are plenty of linguistic examples where “they”, “them”, “their”, and “they’re” are used in a singular fashion, and plenty of examples where people choose to use different language because of comfort level, even outside of gender and sexuality.

At the end of the day, it’s just not a big deal to learn pronouns.  If you respect Sam, then use their chosen pronouns.  If you don’t respect them, then don’t use their chosen pronouns, and though it is your right to free speech and your own linguistic path, if you cannot bring yourself to be kind to another human being, then I sincerely hope you do not procreate or mentor the next generation.    

Edit, because I thought of another point:  For those who are saying that non-binary people set back the fight to loosen the boundaries of gender... you don’t think that non-binary people are shining a spotlight on society having such tight and restrictive gender roles that people literally have to identify outside of gender to be comfortable as a human being? It would seem to me that even their existence helps with the fight to free people from gender roles.  I get that they could also be fighting from inside their assigned gender, but they’re still doing work outside of gender, and who are you to decide how they should be expressing their gender?   

I just don’t understand the “them creating a new category damages our entire community’s struggle” narrative.  If someone was going to identify as something extreme, like a dolphin(using this example because another poster brought this up), then yes, they could subject the community to ridicule.  But when a human chooses to identify outside a specific human social construct like gender, if some random person doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to dissect the separation between sex and gender and understand why someone might identify as non-binary, are we required to pander to that person and reject the non-binary person’s well-thought-out choice of identity simply because the ignorant person “doesn’t get/like it”, and chooses not to think about the topic of gender in depth?  For as much as the “why do we have to pander to non-binary people” attitude is being brought up, I have to wonder why those same people believe that their opinions about where gender begins and ends should be pandered to.    

damn, couldn't have said it better myself!

 

3 hours ago, Dex said:

Yes, white societies. Have you noticed that?

Your genitals dictate your gender identity. If you are born with a penis, it is your duty to be a man. If you are born with a vagina, it is your duty to be a woman. This is so that children have a strong male character for a father and a strong female character for a mother, because - you won't believe this - mothers and fathers have different, clear roles when it comes to raising a healthy(!) and well-rounded child. The mother is responsible for regulating the negative (hunger, thirst, pain) while the father is responsible for stimulating growth (take the kid outside and nurture its skills). People who don't have a stronger gender identity therefore make for weaker parents.

This is why when people pick and choose their own gender identity it leads to chaos, like it already is, partly by forcing radio presenters everywhere to alter their language for this one specific deluded pop star. I get he feels different, but he needs help to align himself with his body, not ask everybody to pander to his delusions. 

woooow, damn. What choice of words even, "duty". It's nobody's duty to do anything, lol, we're all just here on this planet. 

"Different, clear roles", believe it or not (I'd rather you DO believe it...), but that distinction you have in your mind is not that absolute at all. Also, "mothers should feed their kids and fathers should take their kids outside", what kind of medieval view is that? 

Let me break this to you as well, there have been several studies showing that for example kids don't need ánd a father ánd a mother to function perfectly. Plus, having same-sex parents work perfect as well. Studies show that it is indeed preferable to necessary that kids have different role models (different genders), but that those can be perfectly e.g. an aunt, an uncle, a good friend of the family etc. So that's still very far from all the -actually really- nonsense that you're saying.

 

 

7 hours ago, tomsches said:

I mean, good for them. I'll always support and respect people doing whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt others.

From a linguist's point of view though, they are lucky that they have grown up in a society in which its language has gender neutral pronouns. How do non-binary people identify in languages like Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French, German etc. in which they/them either don't exist, are degrading or don't make any sense? Makes me feel like non-binary genders/gender neutrality can only be properly expressed in SOME societies in which they have these pronouns. 

I'm fine with calling somebody them if they choose to. But it will take me a lot to get used to it, because it still sounds weird to me. Language is always a reflection of how a society perceives reality. That's why in almost all languages there are 2 genders, because almost all people perceive our reality/humanity as consisting of 2 genders. Since binary genders are such a universal concept, it's extremely hard to impose something upon a language that the majority doesn't perceive as being part of their reality. 

I get what you mean, BUT think of it that way: language evolves all..the..time + there are neologisms all the time.

And if a Flemish dictionary can call "swaffelen" (which means to hit someone in the face with your penis, yes you read that right) the "word of the year" some years ago, even though like nobody used that word before they named it word of the year, then languages/people can also find a solution for them/their.

[ARTPOP2 3,948]

I've been following this thread for a while now. All I have to say, I'm not surprised. We might think that being gay means we would be more empathetic toward other minorities (racial or gender minorities), but it sadly and clearly isn't true. Most of the site users are gay cisgendered men. Let's forget the gay part for a sec, they are (I included) cis men. We know nothing and we can never know a thing about being a woman nor being trans. And living in patriarchal cis-normative societies, we undoubtedly have a privilege that comes with our gender identity and sex. When a non-binary individual comes out, we have absolutely no say in whether their identity is valid or not. Don't feel like if you are gay/bi and a cisgendered individual part of the LGBQ+ that you can so rudely dictate what's valid or not for trans individuals. Homosexuality was considered a disease by heterosexual men, how do you feel about the majority deciding if you, as part of a minority, is valid or not? Don't tear our community apart because of your cisnormative ideas, nobody cares about how you feel about non-binary genders, nobody cares about what you have to say about them, they exist and are valid. The thing that you can do is acknowledge your privilege and preassumptions and try to move away from them by educating yourself. In the end, you'll find that the whole thing is about respect and human decency.