Climate Advocates Nearly Unanimous: Bernie's Plan Is Best

[Economy 53,162]

@OG Gaga Stan whats with the lmao reaction

[Born To Slay 10,996]

12 hours ago, Economy said:

Im all for fixing the environment but big cuts will be required to pay for this not only in military but in other stuff too

 

also taxes need to go up

In all fairness to Bernie, he actually does go into detail about how this would be paid for. 

Spoiler

This plan will pay for itself over 15 years. Experts have scored the plan and its economic effects. We will pay for the massive investment we need to reverse the climate crisis by:

Making the fossil fuel industry pay for their pollution, through litigation, fees, and taxes, and eliminating federal fossil fuel subsidies.

Generating revenue from the wholesale of energy produced by the regional Power Marketing Authorities. Revenues will be collected from 2023-2035, and after 2035 electricity will be virtually free, aside from operations and maintenance costs.

Scaling back military spending on maintaining global oil dependence.

Collecting new income tax revenue from the 20 million new jobs created by the plan.

Reduced need for federal and state safety net spending due to the creation of millions of good-paying, unionized jobs.

Making the wealthy and large corporations pay their fair share.

 

[HighwayGuy 1,498]

On 9/13/2019 at 12:39 AM, Economy said:

Ban on fracking?

 

if its sudden an immediate that would cause a Great Depression like the 1930s

Because we need to stop taking the fossil fuels that are destroying our planet out of the ground?

We need to change the way our economy works, and Bernie can do that. 

[Economy 53,162]

6 hours ago, HighwayGuy said:

Because we need to stop taking the fossil fuels that are destroying our planet out of the ground?

We need to change the way our economy works, and Bernie can do that. 

Thats fine. But how quickly does he wanna ban fracking tho. Thats what im asking

 

it would have to be gradual

[Economy 53,162]

7 hours ago, Born To Slay said:

In all fairness to Bernie, he actually does go into detail about how this would be paid for. 

  Reveal hidden contents

This plan will pay for itself over 15 years. Experts have scored the plan and its economic effects. We will pay for the massive investment we need to reverse the climate crisis by:

Making the fossil fuel industry pay for their pollution, through litigation, fees, and taxes, and eliminating federal fossil fuel subsidies.

Generating revenue from the wholesale of energy produced by the regional Power Marketing Authorities. Revenues will be collected from 2023-2035, and after 2035 electricity will be virtually free, aside from operations and maintenance costs.

Scaling back military spending on maintaining global oil dependence.

Collecting new income tax revenue from the 20 million new jobs created by the plan.

Reduced need for federal and state safety net spending due to the creation of millions of good-paying, unionized jobs.

Making the wealthy and large corporations pay their fair share.

 

I think the military scale back is fantastic. Making fossil fuel industry pay for pollution can also help. We have the Carbon Tax here in Canada now that essentially does that

 

should be noted u dont really tax only the polluters as those costs and taxes end up rippling thru economy

 

im all up for these important changes but i also think some people are genuinly in lala land if they think huge revolutions like this will be paid for exclusively by the rich with no economic sacrafices from general people whats so ever

 

also tax revenue from the 20 million jobs... that will not come even close to paying for the money pumped into them to begin with

 

for every $1 government spends it doesn’t typically stimulate the economy even close enough to raise revenue even close to the original money spent

 

keep in mind while green jobs would rise, military and fossil fuels jobs would fall. Is the anount they expenct to gain from green jobs really 20 million MORE than what they expect to loose? Seems optimistic to me

 

To be clear i think his plan is great tho cuz the climate is a top priority now. But i think people under estimate how much economic cost will actually go into this tho just saying

 

based on what i read, bernie would not fully fund this plan with tax hikes and some cuts alone. Hed still rely on at least temporarily raising deficit as if its not already dangerously high

 

patiently waiting for all the LMAO reactions im about to get

[Born To Slay 10,996]

1 hour ago, Economy said:

I think the military scale back is fantastic. Making fossil fuel industry pay for pollution can also help. We have the Carbon Tax here in Canada now that essentially does that

 

should be noted u dont really tax only the polluters as those costs and taxes end up rippling thru economy

 

im all up for these important changes but i also think some people are genuinly in lala land if they think huge revolutions like this will be paid for exclusively by the rich with no economic sacrafices from general people whats so ever

 

also tax revenue from the 20 million jobs... that will not come even close to paying for the money pumped into them to begin with

 

for every $1 government spends it doesn’t typically stimulate the economy even close enough to raise revenue even close to the original money spent

 

keep in mind while green jobs would rise, military and fossil fuels jobs would fall. Is the anount they expenct to gain from green jobs really 20 million MORE than what they expect to loose? Seems optimistic to me

 

To be clear i think his plan is great tho cuz the climate is a top priority now. But i think people under estimate how much economic cost will actually go into this tho just saying

 

based on what i read, bernie would not fully fund this plan with tax hikes and some cuts alone. Hed still rely on at least temporarily raising deficit as if its not already dangerously high

 

patiently waiting for all the LMAO reactions im about to get

Yeah I know it ripples thru the economy, I think it’s actually smarter then a straight carbon tax cause people have a harder time understanding the former then the latter. A carbon tax is easier to directly blame the government. 

Bernie doesn’t expect the taxes collected from the jobs to come back completely, that’s only one of the many funding avenues and one of the smallest also. That said, Bernie’s plan is promising to end unemployment as we know it. We have 6 million unemployed and about 10 million people employed directly or indirectly by fossil fuels. It’s hard to tell how many would be hit by the military reduction since his plan isn’t calling for that big of a reduction. But it seems that we’ll either come out ahead here or come s close that they should be able to stimulate us to complete employment. 

It is correct that Bernie’s plan relies temporarily on deficit spending but by 2023 the government would begin selling power (since his plan essentially nationalizes the energy sector), so I don’t expect the deficits to last long. 

Also, just wanted to thank u for ur kind words in another thread, I also really enjoy ur opinions and was happy when I saw u posted in this thread. 

[Economy 53,162]

43 minutes ago, Born To Slay said:

Yeah I know it ripples thru the economy, I think it’s actually smarter then a straight carbon tax cause people have a harder time understanding the former then the latter. A carbon tax is easier to directly blame the government. 

Bernie doesn’t expect the taxes collected from the jobs to come back completely, that’s only one of the many funding avenues and one of the smallest also. That said, Bernie’s plan is promising to end unemployment as we know it. We have 6 million unemployed and about 10 million people employed directly or indirectly by fossil fuels. It’s hard to tell how many would be hit by the military reduction since his plan isn’t calling for that big of a reduction. But it seems that we’ll either come out ahead here or come s close that they should be able to stimulate us to complete employment. 

It is correct that Bernie’s plan relies temporarily on deficit spending but by 2023 the government would begin selling power (since his plan essentially nationalizes the energy sector), so I don’t expect the deficits to last long. 

Also, just wanted to thank u for ur kind words in another thread, I also really enjoy ur opinions and was happy when I saw u posted in this thread. 

Your welcome

 

and yeah fair enough. I do like his plan from an environmental point of view i think we need to act

 

i just dont know if ppl are ready tho or if they are gonna have the right attitude thats my concern

 

one issue with society is that everyone wants social change as long as its someone else footing the bill and as long as its someone else making sacrafices

 

theres no way to tackle an issue this big and a plan this expensive with only the rich paying for it. Unpleasent economic side effects will end up running thru the economy i can nearly garantee that

 

i guess what im saying is... i think a lot of bernie supporters have this false idea the the cost of these revolutions will be exclusively shouldered by the rich while the bottom 90% will feel no effects

 

Social, Economic and Environmental revolutions of epic proportions require co-operation from everyone and everyone to contribute and do their part

 

Even if u try to tax ONLY the wealthy... people would end up paying indirectly by things like lower returns on their RSP funds (people sometimes forget everyday people are also Corporations shareholders not just the rich), higher product prices and companies pass on higher costs to consumers etc

 

Ending fossil fuel industry would also mean a surge in fuel costs as the US is now the worlds biggest producer. People would have to make the investment to electric vehicles which many people would have a hard time affording a new car of and the government would never be able to subsidize on a mass scale more than a small percentage of peoples purchases

 

Im saying everyday people would feel the economic squeeze too even if u try to target only the rich and i dont think a lot of people realize how much that would be the case

 

the attitude of we want social change as long as its not us paying for it needs to go or big plans like this cant work

 

 

[Born To Slay 10,996]

2 hours ago, Economy said:

Your welcome

 

and yeah fair enough. I do like his plan from an environmental point of view i think we need to act

 

i just dont know if ppl are ready tho or if they are gonna have the right attitude thats my concern

 

one issue with society is that everyone wants social change as long as its someone else footing the bill and as long as its someone else making sacrafices

 

theres no way to tackle an issue this big and a plan this expensive with only the rich paying for it. Unpleasent economic side effects will end up running thru the economy i can nearly garantee that

 

i guess what im saying is... i think a lot of bernie supporters have this false idea the the cost of these revolutions will be exclusively shouldered by the rich while the bottom 90% will feel no effects

 

Social, Economic and Environmental revolutions of epic proportions require co-operation from everyone and everyone to contribute and do their part

 

Even if u try to tax ONLY the wealthy... people would end up paying indirectly by things like lower returns on their RSP funds (people sometimes forget everyday people are also Corporations shareholders not just the rich), higher product prices and companies pass on higher costs to consumers etc

 

Ending fossil fuel industry would also mean a surge in fuel costs as the US is now the worlds biggest producer. People would have to make the investment to electric vehicles which many people would have a hard time affording a new car of and the government would never be able to subsidize on a mass scale more than a small percentage of peoples purchases

 

Im saying everyday people would feel the economic squeeze too even if u try to target only the rich and i dont think a lot of people realize how much that would be the case

 

the attitude of we want social change as long as its not us paying for it needs to go or big plans like this cant work

 

 

First I wanna say I agree that that attitude needs to change. But I do think Bernie’s plan has minimized just how much of that would occur. 

Bernie’s plan includes trillions in subsidies for electric cars and weatherization of homes to help low and moderate income families buy electric cars and keep their energy bills from going up. 

Id say overall while the bill may inconvenience some people, Bernie’s approach causes the minimal possible disruption which I think will actually make it more political palatable. 

[Nikolai Barrow 1,337]

On 9/14/2019 at 9:51 AM, Economy said:

Im all for fixing the environment but big cuts will be required to pay for this not only in military but in other stuff too

 

also taxes need to go up

Yeah on the rich 1% in the USA who hoard all the wealth. 

[Economy 53,162]

40 minutes ago, Nikolai Barrow said:

Yeah on the rich 1% in the USA who hoard all the wealth. 

Thats fine but the bottom 99% would still end up paying some ripple thru costs. U cant tax the wealthy that much without the middle class feeling it too

 

all im saying is ppl need to be prepared to pay and not complain if they really want these environmental revolutions to go thru

[Economy 53,162]

1 hour ago, Born To Slay said:

First I wanna say I agree that that attitude needs to change. But I do think Bernie’s plan has minimized just how much of that would occur. 

Bernie’s plan includes trillions in subsidies for electric cars and weatherization of homes to help low and moderate income families buy electric cars and keep their energy bills from going up. 

Id say overall while the bill may inconvenience some people, Bernie’s approach causes the minimal possible disruption which I think will actually make it more political palatable. 

I agree theres ways to minimize the impact but something of this scale its impossible to fully shield everyone from the costs

 

im not against the plan btw. Im saying a lot of people who love to complain are not gonna be so ok with it when they realize everyone ends up with some of the economic costs and it doesnt stay confined to top 1% as extreme socialists like bernie like to make it sound like its so easy to do

 

Again i dont dislike his plan. But some ppl far on the left like him sometimes seem to view the economy as some pie u just cut up and select who u take wealth from and divide it however u want

 

its not as simple as tax this group of people and therefore this other group doesnt feel it 

 

to put it simply, the economy isnt like the cake on your table. Its simply not that simple, it doesnt work that way

 

whether its decreased corporate investment, lower returns on RSP funds, higher consumer prices as companies pass on at least some of the higher costs from higher taxes, lower business competitiveness with rest of the world reducing forein investment...

 

Even without raising taxes on bottom 90% or even 99% a single dime they would still feel the impact of significant tax hikes on Corporations and/or Wealthy individuals. Its just inevitable

 

thats why im saying, the plan will accomplish a lot. But ppl who support it need to go in with the mentality thats its not a free for all. While the rich may share a bigger portion of the burden, inevitably everyday joes will feel some of the impacts too thats a given

 

@Nikolai Barrow a response in more detail to my point

[Marilyn MonHoe 11,011]

5 minutes ago, Economy said:

I agree theres ways to minimize the impact but something if this scale its impossible to fully shield everyone from the costs

 

im not against the plan btw. Im saying a lot of people who love to complain are not gonna be so ok with it when they realize everyone ends up with some of the economic costs and it doesnt stay confined to top 1% as extreme socialists like bernie like to make it sound like its so easy to do

 

Again i dont dislike his plan. But some ppl far on the left like him sometimes seem to view the economy as some pie u just cut up and select who u take wealth from and divide it however u want

 

its not as simple as tax this group of people and therefore this other group doesnt feel it 

 

to put it simply, the economy isnt like the cake on your table. Its simply not that simple, it doesnt work that way

Born To Slay already mentioned that everyone will feel the effects of the Green New Deal but that there are ways to lessen its effects on the middle to lower class, so I’m not sure why you reiterated their point.

Bernie isn’t a socialist, he’s a social democrat. There’s a big difference. He isn’t even on the far left, there are politicians that are further to left than he is like Jeremy Corbyn. Only in Far Right America does Bernie seem like an extremist. Most of his policies are supported by the American people, so him being “extreme” is a myth.

Bernie has mentioned time and again that he is in favor of a progressive tax system. Meaning everyone will have their taxes raised but the richer you are the more taxes you will pay for some of his proposals. Stop making it look like he has “pie in the sky” ideals because it isn’t true 

[Economy 53,162]

1 minute ago, Marilyn MonHoe said:

Born To Slay already mentioned that everyone will feel the effects of the Green New Deal but that there are ways to lessen its effects on the middle to lower class, so I’m not sure why you reiterated their point.

Bernie isn’t a socialist, he’s a social democrat. There’s a big difference. He isn’t even on the far left, there are politicians that are further to left than he is like Jeremy Corbyn. Only in Far Right America does Bernie seem like an extremist. Most of his policies are supported by the American people, so him being “extreme” is a myth.

Bernie has mentioned time and again that he is in favor of a progressive tax system. Meaning everyone will have their taxes raised but the richer you are the more taxes you will pay for some of his proposals. Stop making it look like he has “pie in the sky” ideals because it isn’t true 

True, thats the technical correct term your right. Sorry for that mistake. But i think u know what i meant tho. By socialist i was refering to a more left on the spectrum in favour of bigger government. Id rather focus on the point we’re actually discussing tho rather than starting to argue about correct terminology. Cuz thats how these discussions on GGD start to go off topic and in no time were arguing about the meaning of vocabulary rather than the point at hand 👀

 

Back to the point, i reiterated the point tho because i dont think people realize the degree it will be.

 

most bernie sanders supporters ive met seem to think everything is as simple as taxing the rich as therefore the bottom 99% doesnt have to shoulder any of the economic costs

 

im trying to point out its a lot more to a greater degree than even @Born To Slay comment might imply

 

i do like the plan. I just think most ppl dont realize how much theyll feel the costs too outside the top 1% tier tho and knowing people they are gonna complain

[Born To Slay 10,996]

26 minutes ago, Economy said:

I agree theres ways to minimize the impact but something of this scale its impossible to fully shield everyone from the costs

 

im not against the plan btw. Im saying a lot of people who love to complain are not gonna be so ok with it when they realize everyone ends up with some of the economic costs and it doesnt stay confined to top 1% as extreme socialists like bernie like to make it sound like its so easy to do

 

Again i dont dislike his plan. But some ppl far on the left like him sometimes seem to view the economy as some pie u just cut up and select who u take wealth from and divide it however u want

 

its not as simple as tax this group of people and therefore this other group doesnt feel it 

 

to put it simply, the economy isnt like the cake on your table. Its simply not that simple, it doesnt work that way

 

whether its decreased corporate investment, lower returns on RSP funds, higher consumer prices as companies pass on at least some of the higher costs from higher taxes, lower business competitiveness with rest of the world reducing forein investment...

 

Even without raising taxes on bottom 90% or even 99% a single dime they would still feel the impact of significant tax hikes on Corporations and/or Wealthy individuals. Its just inevitable

 

thats why im saying, the plan will accomplish a lot. But ppl who support it need to go in with the mentality thats its not a free for all. While the rich may share a bigger portion of the burden, inevitably everyday joes will feel some of the impacts too thats a given

 

@Nikolai Barrow a response in more detail to my point

I gotcha, I get what ur saying. I don’t think Bernie is being dishonest tho. He’s fairly honest that some of his plans will see greater investment from the middle class. Even here, he’s honest that much of the plan will be paid for by cutting welfare sending, cutting military spending and new income tax revenue. He’s also honest about the fact that the transition will be helped by the government but not entirely. So while I do agree that people need to understand what they’re getting into, I’d say Bernie has been pretty honest. 

[Lilmonzter 2,864]

If only Bernie had won the primary in 2016