Thoughts After Seeing ASIB (Spoilers)

[wahkeenasitka 1,980]

So I just saw ASIB last night. I have a number of thoughts, so I'll make a list: 

> While I was watching the movie, I could never separate Gaga from Ally. There was no separation for me between the two. The line between the real human being / artist and the character she's playing was so BLURRED. 

> The movie felt like one massive Meta piece about Gaga's own life. There was so much going on in the film that felt like a self-portrait / documentary, specifically all the stuff where we're behind the scenes watching her turn into the orange-haired Ally mega pop star on SNL and doing dance rehearsals, meanwhile having fights behind the scenes. 

> I wish I could have seen the film from the point of view of a totally random audience member that hadn't been following Gaga's career like a hawk for the last 8 1/2 years. Perhaps if I wasn't a huge fan of Gaga, I would be able to see the character Ally, and appreciate the story from more of an objective perspective..?

> Can Gaga actually separate herself so completely from the character she's playing in a film? The only way to find out, imho, is to play a character that isn't perfectly tailored for her persona / lifestyle. Based on seeing the film last night, I would be hesitant to believe she could actually play a character that isn't closely imitating her own life. 

> In terms of the actual story itself, the only thing that felt really strange to me was how Impulsive & Rapidly Jack and Ally advanced their relationship. One day they meet, the very next day she's singing on stage with him in front of a massive crowd, singing a song that they had perfectly co-written and was well rehearsed. It was so strange. And I felt like the wedding elopement thing was so rushed and weird. Those sorts of things felt like unrealistic plot holes that I found challenging as an audience viewer. 

> One final note: the relationship between Jack and Ally seemed like a completely delusional codependent relationship between two people who were genuinely dysfunctional, and Jack was clearly a needy / narcissistic personality person. What was weird to me is that after Ally meets Jack, she tells her dad that she would never get involved with him because he's a drunk. And then she immediately gets swept away and goes straight onto the stage with him and fall in love, and then instantaneously gets all of her fantasies disillusioned when he gets scooped into bed and can't move his body without his brother taking care of him. Later in the film, they have one significant fight in the bathtub, and the next scene of them is "You Hurt Me" and "I said some things..." and then they're back to being in love. This is a really frakked up representation of love. Because it's NOT love. It's weird and psychologically abusive and profoundly sick & immature. So much of the movie is selling this sappy codependency infatuation thing, and the final scenes of her grieving and singing on stage - it's like she never understood that she was letting herself be psychologically abused and going along with it because she's delusional and thinks that this is love, even though he never stood up for her. It pisses me off that this is what gets sold in media as love. 

[Glamourpuss 29,062]

I think the wedding was rushed because they were madly in love. When you're soulmates you just know that person is the right one. Think about the song I'll Never Love Again. He was "the one". 

It's a very toxic relationship but I don't doubt their love. I have been in a very similar relationship and awful things happened but we were in love. 

If you're young, you probably need to live a little bit more to understand. I don't mean that in a condescending way. I would have had the same thoughts as you if it wasn't for the fact that I've had this same kind of relationship myself. 

 

I keep coming back to this post, sorry. 

I agree with you there were times when I thought Jackson went too far. But it was the alcoholic part of him talking. Look at how ashamed he was when he was in rehab. Ally was setting him free because she knew he was mostly drunk when they were together. He wanted her because he was in love with her while sober. I honestly think you've raised some good points though. The cake scene really bothered me. I would have dumped him on the spot. 

[wahkeenasitka 1,980]

2 minutes ago, PussyGlam said:

I think the wedding was rushed because they were madly in love. When you're soulmates you just know that person is the right one. Think about the song I'll Never Love Again. He was "the one". 

I don't buy it. Again, I think that this is the narcissistic form of "love" that we are sold in the media, and not what actual love is. 

I think the wedding was rushed because they had to advance the plot of the movie as rapidly as possible... it served the storyline, but I felt like it was a gigantic gaping plot hole. 

[sipthistea 21,099]

11 minutes ago, wahkeenasitka said:

So much of the movie is selling this sappy codependency infatuation thing, and the final scenes of her grieving and singing on stage - it's like she never understood that she was letting herself be psychologically abused and going along with it because she's delusional and thinks that this is love, even though he never stood up for her. It pisses me off that this is what gets sold in media as love. 

He was the first person who believed in her and allowed her to sing and write music with him. It was because of him that she became a star in the first place. 

[JohnnyVersace 8,754]

I mean, I've seen people shack up after a few dates, get married a year later, and pop out a kid in my own life. So imagine what fame, money, drugs, alcohol and privilege can do to a relationship. It advanced so quickly because they were both wrapped up in the artistry and the fame, and kind of overlooked all the deep-rooted problems. 

[wahkeenasitka 1,980]

Just now, sipthistea said:

He was the first person who believed in her and allowed her to sing and write music with him. It was because of him that she became a star in the first place. 

Totally. But that's the plotline, not actual love. 

Again, I'm ultimately saying that this is an unhealthy representation of love, as represented in the media - and it's important to look at this as a representation of delusional infatuation / narcissism. 

[Glamourpuss 29,062]

The whole point of the story is to give Ally some depth. Jackson wanted her to reach into her soul but she didn't have anything to say so was making simple pop songs. In the end, the toxic relationship and his death is what catapults her to stardom because now she has something to dig deep for when she's writing her music. That last song was borne out of their love. How could a song like that be written if they weren't in love. Jackson had his demons but he wasn't completely devoid of love. 

Look at what he says about her nose. That was real and beautiful. But later on he calls her ugly. She knew that wasn't him, it was the booze. 

 

[Didymus 34,267]

Hmm.

First off, I totally forgot who Lady Gaga was when watching Ally, regardless of the meta-level of the film that was clearly mirroring Gaga's experiences in the industry. Ally's personality, imo, is totally different from Gaga's in every way so I had no problem in that regard since Gaga played the hell out that difference.

I too wish I could see the movie as a non-fan though, I get what you mean

About the love thing: I think I understand where you're coming from, but I also disagree because I understand Bradley's thought process as well. These people fall in love with each other for who they are behind their façades and all of their emotional baggage.

However, that façade is still up in other areas of their lives and that baggage is still weighing. That's why Ally has to deal with Jack's past and related drug problem, and why Jack has to deal with Ally's insecurity and the career decisions she makes based off of them.

However, both characters are defined by their fundamental generosity towards each other, simply for the sake of it, helping each other develop towards greater happiness, together. That was the core of their relationship, and it was beautiful. That there's more to their lives than that, though, is realistic, and what makes the characters in the film humane, and flawed.

You have to understand that in previous versions the role of Ally was designed more as a fatal victim of circumstances rather than a fully actualized person. I think it was important in this film for the two characters to be equal, to be equally flawed, and equally in love. The beauty of Jack's love for her is that it is a gift. At the end of the film Ally realizes her dream in all its big stage musical Hollywood glory, yet we do not see the public, nor hear the applause. We look into her eyes and she looks into ours, and we simply understand that she loved someone, truly, and has found strength, security, and maturity in that experience, and that memory.

The lack of judgment from Ally and the mutual respect between them in my opinion transcends the flaws you can point out in their relationship. I saw two real people with real problems and real childhood trauma that centered around their parents' influence (Ally, as well, was defined by her father's alcoholic pessimism and simultaneous spasmic hope for his own, and thus also her bright future, which he later realizes is not what it seems). Jack isn't able to escape from them, but Ally is, by realizing that she has experienced true love, and that she is not responsible for another's self-destruction. She is responsible for her respect and love for him (and others), defined by it. And she hasn't lost it, despite her world dramatically changing. And she won't lose it. That is not a dysfunctional person.

[Glamourpuss 29,062]

@Didymus excellent post. You said everything I wanted to say and more. 

[JazzGa 14,409]

23 minutes ago, wahkeenasitka said:

 

> One final note: the relationship between Jack and Ally seemed like a completely delusional codependent relationship between two people who were genuinely dysfunctional, and Jack was clearly a needy / narcissistic personality person. What was weird to me is that after Ally meets Jack, she tells her dad that she would never get involved with him because he's a drunk. And then she immediately gets swept away and goes straight onto the stage with him and fall in love, and then instantaneously gets all of her fantasies disillusioned when he gets scooped into bed and can't move his body without his brother taking care of him. Later in the film, they have one significant fight in the bathtub, and the next scene of them is "You Hurt Me" and "I said some things..." and then they're back to being in love. This is a really frakked up representation of love. Because it's NOT love. It's weird and psychologically abusive and profoundly sick & immature. So much of the movie is selling this sappy codependency infatuation thing, and the final scenes of her grieving and singing on stage - it's like she never understood that she was letting herself be psychologically abused and going along with it because she's delusional and thinks that this is love, even though he never stood up for her. It pisses me off that this is what gets sold in media as love. 

It's true that Jackson and Ally's love story was a heartbreaking and unhealthy one showing off the terrible effects of alcoholism, substance abuse, fame, being star-struck, and many other things. But it's not a filmmaker's job to show the audience "good role models." This is drama, not a couple's counseling educational video. It's also a poignantly elegant portrayal of the emotional journey of anyone who has ever been in love with an addict. Even though it isn't healthy, it touched me (and millions of others like me, I'll assume) because of its ability to accurately show that journey

[wahkeenasitka 1,980]

I think I'm jaded, because I've actually been in an abusive relationship with a psychologically manipulative alcoholic who was also a drug addict (meth) during my 20s.

I'm 39 now, and I would *NEVER* be in a relationship like what they portrayed on screen. Nor would I ever romanticize this kind of portrayal of love. 

[Glamourpuss 29,062]

3 minutes ago, wahkeenasitka said:

I think I'm jaded, because I've actually been in an abusive relationship with a psychologically manipulative alcoholic who was also a drug addict (meth) during my 20s.

I'm 39 now, and I would *NEVER* be in a relationship like what they portrayed on screen. Nor would I ever romanticize this kind of portrayal of love. 

My apologies for assuming you were younger. I'm 30 myself so I immediately assume most people on here are young because they usually are. 

[wahkeenasitka 1,980]

6 minutes ago, Didymus said:

However, both characters are defined by their fundamental generosity towards each other, simply for the sake of it, helping each other develop towards greater happiness, together. That was the core of their relationship, and it was beautiful. That there's more to their lives than that, though, is realistic, and what makes the characters in the film humane, and flawed.

I think you made some really great points. 

BUT... I think that ultimately, the film is a meditation on / representation of narcissistic relationships, in which the power dynamics are so clearly out of balance that the relationship is based on illusion and codependency, such that the potential of actual love is never able to be realized. The fact that Jack killed himself at the end of the movie says everything to me, which is why we as the audience should view this story as a cautionary tale about how we create so much illusion & fantasy about what love is, and create these sappy / codependency relationships that are actually all about sucking the life force out of us rather than *ACTUALLY* being fundamentally generous towards each other. 

[JazzGa 14,409]

6 minutes ago, wahkeenasitka said:

I think I'm jaded, because I've actually been in an abusive relationship with a psychologically manipulative alcoholic who was also a drug addict (meth) during my 20s.

I'm 39 now, and I would *NEVER* be in a relationship like what they portrayed on screen. Nor would I ever romanticize this kind of portrayal of love. 

Me too, perhaps after a few years have passed and I am more separated from that relationship, I will feel more like you do. I don't think Jackson was a narcissist though. Dependent, and letting his addiction consume his life and overtake his personality? Definitely. And addictions and dependencies (and their resulting insecurity, fear of abandonment, and the holes they put in logical thinking) nearly always result in emotional manipulation, whether or not they are intentional.  But I hesitate to conflate narcissism/NPD with addiction. I think they're two separate issues. They often are both present in the same person but not always.

[wahkeenasitka 1,980]

2 minutes ago, PussyGlam said:

My apologies for assuming you were younger. I'm 30 myself so I immediately assume most people on here are young because they usually are. 

i've been one of the oldest people on this site for years. i discovered Gaga when I was 30.