California might legally recognize 3rd gender

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

1 hour ago, PartySick said:

I think this is less about people recognizing gender queer people and more about people arguing their definition of "gender"

Is it defined by genitals? If so, there's three genders.
Is it defined by chromosomes? If so, again, there's three.
Is it defined by you as a person? If so, there could possibly be limitless ways (genders) to express how one person feels or identifies themself in relation to the gender binary.

I actually think all three situations we've got more than 3.

If we are referring to genitalia, its not as black and white as penis = male, vagina = female, ??? = intersex, ergo 3. There's actually a bit more variation in there as well... same with chromosomes, which inform genitalia, and on top of that, there's hormone balance, which affects the appearance and manifestation of primary and secondary sex characteristics  Some women have XX chromosomes, vaginas, etc. but have a typically male physical appearance due to other reasons, and vice versa is possible as well. Sex and gender are both truly spectrums, even if sex is objectively "more" binary than gender (where "male" and "female" are the two poles evolutionarily)

That being said, nonbinary (also known as simply genderqueer) as an option for a 3rd gender identification for me seems very definitive. It's an umbrella term and labels that fit under it meet these categories:

having an overlap of, or indefinite lines between, gender identity

having two or more genders (being bigender, trigender, or pangender)

having no gender (being agender, nongendered, genderless, genderfree or neutrois)

moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity (genderfluid)

being third gender or other-gendered, a category which includes those who do not place a name to their gender

so its quite a wide umbrella  

I actually can't think of any gender identities (not expressions, or shades of gender identities, both of which are infinite  ) that are something other than binary or non binary. It's like a math equation. "What we know" + "What we don't know" is basically 100%. We have it covered, even if non binary is a very wide, seemingly never ending umbrella. 

I think if people knew more people identified as non binary/genderqueer or gender non conforming, there'd be less of this assumption that non binary people want to identify as their unique gender identity + expression combination or whatever (I'm a trigender, ace, panromantic person that uses xe/they pronouns vs "I'm genderqueer/nonbinary") I've never met any non binary person that is that finicky about their identity that they feel it a must to identify in a needlessly specific way, but they will surely clarify if you ask and their close friends will know.

[PartySick 173,513]

4 hours ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

I actually think all three situations we've got more than 3.

If we are referring to genitalia, its not as black and white as penis = male, vagina = female, ??? = intersex, ergo 3. There's actually a bit more variation in there as well... same with chromosomes, which inform genitalia, and on top of that, there's hormone balance, which affects the appearance and manifestation of primary and secondary sex characteristics  Some women have XX chromosomes, vaginas, etc. but have a typically male physical appearance due to other reasons, and vice versa is possible as well. Sex and gender are both truly spectrums, even if sex is objectively "more" binary than gender (where "male" and "female" are the two poles evolutionarily)

That being said, nonbinary (also known as simply genderqueer) as an option for a 3rd gender identification for me seems very definitive. It's an umbrella term and labels that fit under it meet these categories:

having an overlap of, or indefinite lines between, gender identity

having two or more genders (being bigender, trigender, or pangender)

having no gender (being agender, nongendered, genderless, genderfree or neutrois)

moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity (genderfluid)

being third gender or other-gendered, a category which includes those who do not place a name to their gender

so its quite a wide umbrella  

I actually can't think of any gender identities (not expressions, or shades of gender identities, both of which are infinite  ) that are something other than binary or non binary. It's like a math equation. "What we know" + "What we don't know" is basically 100%. We have it covered, even if non binary is a very wide, seemingly never ending umbrella. 

I think if people knew more people identified as non binary/genderqueer or gender non conforming, there'd be less of this assumption that non binary people want to identify as their unique gender identity + expression combination or whatever (I'm a trigender, ace, panromantic person that uses xe/they pronouns vs "I'm genderqueer/nonbinary") I've never met any non binary person that is that finicky about their identity that they feel it a must to identify in a needlessly specific way, but they will surely clarify if you ask and their close friends will know.

That essay 

Spoiler

I love it

Basically, biology has no solid lines, emotions and personality and even more blurred and complex, and for anyone to narrow gender/sex down to two and only two is ignorant to say the least

Sidenote - humans are so interesting. We're such a strange species

[homomo 23,883]

On 2017-05-27 at 3:01 PM, ashae said:

I mean I don't care if someone is going through something where they are unsure of there gender, there are still 2 genders because gender is just the state of being either sexes

I think you are confusing gender with sex. Sex is the biological male/female. Gender on the other hand, is the social/cultural construct of how someone identifies themselves. It varies around the world, and can be unlimited. 

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Interstellar said:

I think you are confusing gender with sex. Sex is the biological male/female. Gender on the other hand, is the social/cultural construct of how someone identifies themselves. It varies around the world, and can be unlimited. 

 

My opinion is that where there is infinite gender expression, where you can be male but not fit the societal norm of male, and vice versa, and that is on a spectrum. However because of how gender is defined, it can only be based off of your sex, or if you have gender dysphoria 

[iCpro 14,846]

I kind of have a problem with gender being a social construct, it doesn't make sense to me. If gender isn't a state of mind, then gender disphoria is not real, as it is a mental illness by definition where there is a mismatch between the person's sex and gender.

However if gender is a social construct that we gain through the expectations placed on us from birth, then gender identity would be a state of mind that is developed after birth, meaning it would align with our gender assigned at birth based on sex, therefore no one would suffer from gender disphoria.

However if gender is not a social construct, then it would be determined based on biological influences before birth. This would mean there is a possibility for things to go wrong, ie people developing with the wrong gender or no gender at all. 

 

Im not sure if that makes any sense  if I'm missing something here please explain it to me, it's just that trans kids have the highest rate of suicide in the world, I don't see how that could be caused by a mere social construct 

[Bebe 17,289]

8 hours ago, iCpro said:

I kind of have a problem with gender being a social construct, it doesn't make sense to me. If gender isn't a state of mind, then gender disphoria is not real, as it is a mental illness by definition where there is a mismatch between the person's sex and gender.

However if gender is a social construct that we gain through the expectations placed on us from birth, then gender identity would be a state of mind that is developed after birth, meaning it would align with our gender assigned at birth based on sex, therefore no one would suffer from gender disphoria.

However if gender is not a social construct, then it would be determined based on biological influences before birth. This would mean there is a possibility for things to go wrong, ie people developing with the wrong gender or no gender at all. 

 

Im not sure if that makes any sense  if I'm missing something here please explain it to me, it's just that trans kids have the highest rate of suicide in the world, I don't see how that could be caused by a mere social construct 

"if gender is a social construct that we gain through the expectations placed on us from birth, then gender identity would be a state of mind that is developed after birth, meaning it would align with our gender assigned at birth based on sex"

Could you explain this a little more? I don't quite understand.

I think what you are saying is that if gender was a result of societal pressures after birth, then everyone born male or female would have conformed to the gender assigned at birth based on sex - but I don't think that's necessarily true.

I think from a very young age children could feel that the gender roles they are expected to play out are unappealing and restrictive and could find themselves wishing they were born in another body so that they could play out gender in the same way they see those of the opposite sex play out gender.

I also wouldn't ever describe gender as a 'mere' social construct. I think you assume that social constructs can’t have deep-reaching effects on the ones who, within the construct, are perceived as “less than” or “other.” Social constructs, more than anything else, govern the way that systems cause violence to marginalized groups. Calling something a social construct doesn’t eliminate its power, or meaningfully address the harms people in the out-group experience. 

Money is often used as the classic example of a social construct, what gives money value and power is that we all agree it has value and power - paper notes and coins or numbers in a computer don't have any inherent value, but all agree on a particular assigned meaning which gives it it's power and value. The power of this particular social construct is HUGE however, I mean if everyone in the world suddenly decided that money was worthless then the entire world economy would collapse. Never underestimate the power of 'social constructs'.

Gender itself may be a social construct, but the gender binary has very real consequences—for trans individuals and for cis-women, too. In the patriarchal world we live in, male assigned and identified people experience privilege that female-identified people do not. Transgender people, though, typically experience being outside of and unrecognizable to this gender system—even when they are read as cisgender, they are still subject to harms based on their trans status at any point when they come out or are outed.


 

[ryhanna 3,507]

I don't think I'll ever truly understand this because gender identity is such a foreign concept to me as a person who was born the way they identify, so I'll just step out and let anyone it does affect have their say.

That said, I'm somewhat confused by this. Is it talking about legal documents? Like, if you were signing a lease on a house and had to tick male or female, you'd also have an option to choose trans or nonbinary? 

[derpmonster 22,412]

For anyone reading this,

There's sex and there's gender. There are three sexes: male, female, and intersex (refers to people born with both body parts, and yes, that's possible).

Gender is simply how you feel and express yourself. If you feel like a female and dress up like a female traditionally does in society but were born with a penis and testicles, you are transgender. If you don't feel like either (many, many people are like this), you're nonbinary.

[derpmonster 22,412]

1 hour ago, ryhanna said:

I don't think I'll ever truly understand this because gender identity is such a foreign concept to me as a person who was born the way they identify, so I'll just step out and let anyone it does affect have their say.

That said, I'm somewhat confused by this. Is it talking about legal documents? Like, if you were signing a lease on a house and had to tick male or female, you'd also have an option to choose trans or nonbinary? 

Thank you, and yes.

[derpmonster 22,412]

11 hours ago, PartySick said:

I think this is less about people recognizing gender queer people and more about people arguing their definition of "gender"

Is it defined by genitals? If so, there's three genders.
Is it defined by chromosomes? If so, again, there's three.
Is it defined by you as a person? If so, there could possibly be limitless ways (genders) to express how one person feels or identifies themself in relation to the gender binary.

Yes, gender has been grossly misdefined in the minds of most people. Genitals and chromosomes define sex and you as a person are defined by gender. There doesn't have to be a 1:1 correlation between say the female sex and acting/dressing like the stereotypical female (the female gender).

[derpmonster 22,412]

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 3:20 PM, ashae said:

I didn't say that genitals define your gender? I said that there were only 2 genders because that's just a fact. 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gender

 

You're seriously misunderstanding what gender even is. It's NOT the same as sex (which your genitals and chromosomes define). Even so, there are three sexes - male, female, intersex (yes, some people are born with both sets of genitals and have the trisomal XXY chromosomes).

Gender is solely about how you feel, act, and clothe. There are limitless ways to define it. If you're sexually a male but have ever done something that's not stereotypically assigned to the male gender, congratulations, you have been gender nonconforming. But if over a stable period of time, you feel like there's only one stereotype you identify with more or less, that's your gender. If you can't separate it between two, it's nonbinary. Simple.

[Jersey Gaga 36]

As a student of a very progressive art university when it comes to gender recognition and acceptance of those who are LGBT+, it's awesome to see barriers broken down in other bigger places YAASSSSSS!

[Guest]

11 hours ago, derpmonster said:

You're seriously misunderstanding what gender even is. It's NOT the same as sex (which your genitals and chromosomes define). Even so, there are three sexes - male, female, intersex (yes, some people are born with both sets of genitals and have the trisomal XXY chromosomes).

Gender is solely about how you feel, act, and clothe. There are limitless ways to define it. If you're sexually a male but have ever done something that's not stereotypically assigned to the male gender, congratulations, you have been gender nonconforming. But if over a stable period of time, you feel like there's only one stereotype you identify with more or less, that's your gender. If you can't separate it between two, it's nonbinary. Simple.

intersex are genetic disorders and depending on if its a monosomy or trisomy they still are technically one sex or the other and usually identify with the gender in which they feel most like. Also by not conforming to gender stereotypes you don't create different that's just gender expression. I explained this in my other post if you want to look at that.