Ed Sheeran expected to earn NINE new top 10 songs this week (UK)

[JusKeepBreathin 19,311]

Good for him.

This is a guy that plays every instrument on his tracks. Who sings high or low notes equally well, who produces and writes his own music, who isn't the cookie cutter pop aesthetic. 

Everyone on here seems to be bitter and pressed. 

 

[Sepsami 18,916]

11 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Well, I'm very sorry if you feel that way. Understand that I think your opinions are just as valid, especially as you're actually from the group in question. But I think I'm just as entitled to take another angle on it. I'm used to men debating the point I've made as a woman on a woman's issue. But they have every right to do that, I just think they should be a bit more respectful and open-minded when they do. I daresay we had the same problem when we disagreed over the sexism in Hotline Bling. I'm really trying not to miss the point, I'm trying to be as empathetic as I can. And I say urban and black because they are the correct terms and you use them too, so what's the problem? I'm not necessarily dismissive of your reality but sometimes, you say something that I can genuinely counteract with factual research, so it's hard not to bring it up. And remember that the same reality doesn't exist worldwide. And now I see where we're running into problems - you think I'm the one bringing up colour. I've never seen colour. It has no bearing on my opinions of anyone, as befits my UK stance on colour blindness which Americans don't seem to like for some reason. I only bring up colour when other people bring it up first. That's why this whole conversation started. Because I asked the question: "Why did you bring race into the equation?" I can only imagine the outrage if someone said "black mediocrity" but apparently saying "white mediocrity" is 100% acceptable and shouldn't be challenged. Equal treatment and all. If it's wrong to pick up on the race of a black person, it's wrong to pick up on the race of a white person.

That second statement is utterly untrue. It actually deeply offends me. I just explained above. I'll see colour if I'm instructed to see it. I'm perfectly fine to talk about racial struggle if the need arises but unless there's an actual need to see colour (i.e. when colour is paramount to the subject of conversation), I don't see it. I don't like untrue assumptions to be spread about me just because I'm a white person who dares to tackle the subject of race and be critical of some theories regarding it. If you read any review I have ever given to a black artist's music, you'll know that I focus completely on subject matter, lyrics, production and vocals, nothing else whatsoever. Just like I do with white artists. I only talk about race when the issue is served up to me.

Please don't talk about me like I'm not here because you can't be bothered to @ me. Since when was discussing black musicians as "they" and "them" a borderline racist thing? I do the exact same with white artists! Apparently, a simple English language grammatical plural to describe any group of people is offensive now! Think about what you're saying. No, the suggestion that they all do the same thing is your interpretation, not mine. There's no need to take what I say so literally. Of course there are specific people I'm talking about but it is a widespread issue also involving those I don't listen to or have never heard of either.

That I perfectly agree with. The gender issue is the biggest gripe. Men have been able to get away with making sub-par music for years. And their female fans ensure they stay in business. I know that I hang my head over all the women out there who will buy a man's music purely because they think he's hot. You won't find men doing the same for women. They'll just buy a poster to hang on their wall and watch the music videos on mute, like a normal person. You wouldn't catch them buying their music or paying to see them live. But women will happily do it for male singers who have nothing to offer but looks and it drives me nuts that this mindset dictates what's popular.

And while I definitely agree that we're nowhere near as harsh on males or as focused on analysing their output, I will say that I don't think Taylor has evolved much. She's slowly been becoming a popstar from day one. A lot of people have always considered her pop, actually. But yeah, when I'm harsh on a female artist, a lot of people just nod and carry on. When it's a male artist, it's like "How dare you!" especially if this man writes his own songs and plays his own instruments. That makes him more artistically credible yes, but it doesn't make him automatically good.

No, it doesn't bother me at all, you just assume it does. It's always assumed that whites have some sort of problem with blacks doing well. I just have a problem with bad music doing well, regardless of who it's coming from. I only separate music by race when people point it out and make it a bone of contention. Yes, an Asian artist will obviously struggle to make it in the Western music industry but that's usually because a lot of them don't want to sing in English, even if they're capable of it. It's difficult to promote an act in a country where the native language doesn't match the one they're singing in. Let's not pretend that when people talk about race in the music industry, they're talking about black people. Which really shows how underrepresented Asians are, much more than blacks, but that's beside the point.

I perfectly understand what you're saying, but you don't need to put it down in the way you have, as I'm uneducated. Of course it's still possible to experience racism in the music industry but people still talk as if we're still in the 50's. Oh, bigging up the success of black artists is commonplace...but suddenly, we get into the topic of race in the industry and magically, people act as if there isn't one black success story. It's like, make up your mind. They're either successful or struggling, but you can't have it both ways. And don't lump me into the category of the "new wave of white people denying oppression still exists." I'm not some uneducated whitey like you want to think I am. It's highly offensive how I'm forced to endure this every time I speak about race. And by the way, a lot of black people agree with the things I have to say. Doesn't make it correct but it makes it worth listening to. And research is a great way to supplement reality and show that sometimes, things aren't as bad as you think they are. Negative statistics aren't the only ones that exist, you know. But people don't want to discuss the positive ones because then their comfortable illusion of being the mistreated underdog is shattered. Look, I'm a feminist and very proud of it, but to say that women are oppressed in every aspect of life is false and we shouldn't promote this false ideal. I treat race no differently.

Your essays never disappoint

[StrawberryBlond 14,883]

19 hours ago, Albertodift said:

I respect the fact that you took the time to respond. I still have to disagree with some points you made based on facts and what I mentioned earlier but I guess we will have to simply agree to disagree. 

But again thank you for the well thought out response. Wish I had a chance to talk to you face to face about this topic because it is something I'm educated in as I'm studying these types of topics. I think you'd learn a lot and I could also learn a lot from our discussion.

Well, I haven't exactly presented all the information to you. If I laid it all out, maybe you could at least see what I'm talking about.

I too, wish I could talk face to face with some people about this kinda stuff. Maybe online, my persona comes off a bit harsh. In reality, I'm a very quiet, gentle, softly spoken person who lets other people speak as I can't stand interruptions unless it's to say something very important. If you saw me like that, maybe your perception of me would be a bit different. By the way, while I didn't actually follow it through to the point where I became qualified in it, I did study sociology briefly at university, so it's not like I'm ignorant about people who aren't like me. By the sounds of things, perhaps some elements of sociology courses have changed since I did it (or maybe it's just in America) but I think the basics are there. I also have a degree in religious studies and theology. I'm also very immersed in Hispanic culture as I grew up surrounded by elements of it along with the people and the language (which is very unusual, considering my heritage and location). So, yeah, I unfortunately feel when confronted with the topic of race and people know I am white, my opinions are very easily dismissed if they are the least bit critical. I think it's just as racist to make negative assumptions of my intelligence/educational level just because I am white. When you've actually been educated and research and are a liberal, open-minded, loving person, it hurts to be put into the category of racist, ignorant mayo whose reality doesn't extend beyond their front door. I think stereotyping and generalising is bad when its done to anyone.

17 hours ago, DemeLarell said:

Yea it's that and the fact that quite a few people on here expect some black artist to conform to the music they grew up on and what they are use to. It's like the colonization of music. 

It's not telling them to conform because of their race, though, but just to the style of music that was so good that used to be associated with them. How is that any different from telling Gaga to make pop music like TF again? Are we telling her to sing traditional electro pop about partying and sex because that's what white pop girls do? No, it's just a personal preference for musical taste. To take a racial angle on something like that is really stretching it.

17 hours ago, DemeLarell said:

I simply do not agree. Statistics mean nothing. Statistics are never 100% and the survey pool is only a small portion of the group referred to. We cannot take these statistics and make pseudo  facts and sweeping generalizations. That is what I mean by dismissing my reality with your theories.

And it's not what you say how you say it. When it was said that the only reason why some of the black musicians are successful is because of the color of their skin really shocked me. I have followed some of these artist work so hard and overcoming obstacles to get to where they are, just like gaga did. And I'm in the musical theatre field and I work so hard just to have a chance in this industry and I would hate for anyone to say it was because of my race. No matter what race, if you work hard you will prevail. This is why I say it has nothing to do with race in that sense. 

@Touch It @Albertodift... just wanna here your opinions. 

When I talk about statistics in this case, I'm not talking about government surveys or anything. This is purely a music-based point and as such, all I'm referring to when I say "statistics," is the professional critical reviews and chart information. All of which can easily be researched. I think that statistical information is almost 100% solid in this particular case. When talking about statistics in general, your point stands, but music-based statistics are pretty much what you see is what you get.

Ok, I can understand why what I said was shocking but...some people here have said just as much in regards to white artists and you didn't have a problem with that. So, let me understand this: it's wrong to say that black artists get popular because their race has a big devotion to them because they can relate to them...but it's perfectly acceptable to say that white artists get popular for the same reasons? Again, this is double standards. I mean, it's hard to believe that aesthetic relatability doesn't play some kind of role in why some black people like black artists considering that we're constantly hearing demands from them to have more black people in the media to relate to. Personally, I don't get the whole "someone needs to look like me in order to relate to them" ideal. I can relate to anyone if they have a similar personality to me or similar life experiences to me, how they look and sound doesn't come into it. Bear in mind, I would never say to someone that they've got to where they based on their race alone. But in some cases, I'd say it was a factor, although I wouldn't say it to their face. If you think being white has some factor in your success, why not being black?

17 hours ago, Touch It said:

I've steered clear because debating this is insanely hard to do with @StrawberryBlond. Oh, and I @'d you this time. It wasn't personal the last time I did it, I was mobile. You continue to be very curt in regard to me with your last two posts and I really don't appreciate it. I may have a different view than yours, but I've debated you with complete respect. Please afford me the same.

And, I don't mean debating with StrawberryBlond is difficult due to personality. It's very difficult to do when facts, statistics, or names aren't presented. I've only seen you discuss black artists in bulk, so perhaps you do group people together by race on a general basis. That being said, not all 'black musicians' do the same thing vocal manipulations, etc. Hence why specific examples would be nice, because it just seems like you have a few in mind when writing. Of course, all races are found in almost every musical genre. It's nearly impossible to group musicians together solely by their race.

I'll admit I was vague in my initial comments, but they weren't entirely expressed for the purpose of debate...rather, more tongue-in-cheek. That being said, unless finance or nepotism is on your side, it's hard for anyone in the industry. Even when finance or nepotism are in play it can be hard to find widespread success. White artists struggle, black artists struggle. Each person is different. We're not just looking at the studio end of this though, we're looking at the consumers and the media. Plenty of white artists reproduce or take inspiration from black artists, trends, etc. and are credited with making the trends popular. I can give examples as needed, but honestly, I think we all can name at least two examples off the top of our heads.

No, this is not the 1950s, but to act like everyone is on even footing is just not true. You cannot choose to ignore the plight of people just because you choose not to see it. Historical discrimination takes much more than decades or even a century to rectify. Prejudice, discrimination, and racism are still present in the industry and consumers. Men and women have different experiences in the industry as well. I'm rambling now, but my main point is that yes, everyone struggles but there are still societal issues that, sometimes, can create higher hurdles for minorities, whether they be female, black, latino/a, etc.

PS: Thank you @Albertodift! I was discussing non-white artists and made that clear a few times, but it kept getting relegated back to black v. white. It's not that simple and my comments were directed at all non-white races. Thus, it's much more complicated and it's so frustrating to see it made into a bi-racial issue rather than a more comprehensive discussion on ALL races in the industry.

Well, I've been a bit short with you because I didn't take kindly to you insulting my country and basically saying that our population are a bunch of racists with no taste in music. You clearly don't have much knowledge about my country if you think this is what our music institution is based on because it couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe if you were a bit more open minded about what the reality actually is here, maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed.

I haven't presented facts, statistics and names because it would be going too off-topic and take up too much space and time. Because I review albums, I can immediately recall critical reception for all different albums, which not everyone can do, requiring research that they don't always want to partake in. And I think it's funny how you think discussing black artists in bulk is bad...but you had no issue with discussing white artists in bulk. You were the one who came in talking about white mediocrity, bringing up race for no reason. If anyone was grouping people by race, it was you. I naively assumed that you wanted me to treat both races equally. See? Equal treatment is being viewed as bad treatment. You don't seem to realise that you're asking for black artists to be treated better than white artists here. You seem to think that criticism should only be reserved for white artists, that generalisations are only bad when applied to black artists. No, of course not all of them do vocal manipulations and suchlike but if you do want some specific examples, I call up the usual suspects: Future, Wiz Khalifa, Drake, Lil Wayne, Nicki Minaj, Big Sean, Ty Dolla $ign...their vocals are awful and indecipherable in some cases, their lyrics are empty and meaningless (for the most part), their beats are boring/irritating and so many of them are going down this pretentious, avant garde route. Kanye was one of the few who went for avant garde that I actually liked...on MBDTF and Yeezus. He jumped off a cliff into pretentiousness with TLOP and I'm kinda losing faith in him now. There aren't really enough white rappers to compare them to but certainly, they're picking up the slack in the meantime. I've always liked Eminem, I thought Macklemore's debut album was good and controversial as it is, I like Iggy and I don't know why people don't because I think she's just as good, or at least on the same level, as most black female rappers.

Could I ask what is so negative about white artists taking inspiration from black artists and trends? Inspiration is anyone's for the taking. I don't care if anyone wants to take stuff from my culture or country, just respect it and don't misrepresent it. To suggest that we should stay in our own racial lanes in music creation is segregation talk. In the case of Ed, even when we do make the music that's expected of us according to our race, it still isn't good enough for you. Another big myth that you're ignited here is the one that goes "white people are credited with starting trends invented by black people." While I won't deny that inspiration is taken, I can assure you that whites are not credited with it. Now, more than ever, the internet is quick to expose where it actually originated from and make sure everyone knows it. I don't know one white person who claims that Miley invented twerking. I mean, it's not as if we've not seen dancing like it before she was even born. No sane person thinks that white people invented dreadlocks or hip hop music. But as I've often seen, people want to re-write history nowadays. They want us to believe that this white artists were glorified for their piggybacking of black culture and trends and made out that they were the inventors of it. The exact opposite is true. They are always widely villified - Iggy for singing in a deep south accent, Miley for twerking, Kylie for wearing dreadlocks, Katy for using the term 'thot' in a music video. Look up all these instances, and you'll get numerous online articles villifying them for it and the online commentators agree. People just conveniently like to forget history where it suits them. We are constantly being reminded about where this stuff all came from and that whites are appropriating it and why its wrong. Widespread acceptance of it is simply not a thing.

In the music industry? Race is almost completely on an even footing, provided you sing in English. The one big exception is probably the country music scene but that is hardly as big as it once was anyway. And I don't ignore the plight of people, I do choose to see it...when it matters. Not where it has no relevance. Music, of all things, should be a race-free issue.

And trust me, I will bring up all races when I need to, it just seemed overwhelmingly clear that when talking about racism in the music industry, most of us are talking about blacks. Which is ironic, as after whites, they are the most represented race in music. It's Asian and Hispanic artists we should be talking about if misrepresentation is the issue.

[YeehawKylie 7,817]

22 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Well, I've been a bit short with you because I didn't take kindly to you insulting my country and basically saying that our population are a bunch of racists with no taste in music. You clearly don't have much knowledge about my country if you think this is what our music institution is based on because it couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe if you were a bit more open minded about what the reality actually is here, maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed.

You took my words to mean that,  I didn't say that. I said I wasn't shocked that two mediocre white artists comprising (and celebrated by being part) of your top ten didn't shock me. It doesn't. Similar trends probably wouldn't shock me most places, but this thread was about the UK charts this week, so I didn't feel the need to list any other countries that may celebrate the same mediocre talent. And, I already said it wasn't meant to be entirely serious, yet here you are continuing to say I "don't have much knowledge of your country" and "am not open minded". You really have nothing to base those two comments on, you're just saying them to, yet again, be rude. I haven't called you ignorant, close-minded, racist, or anything because I don't know you at all to make a judgement on your character or personality. If you could afford me the same respect, that'd be great. Thanks. 

22 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I haven't presented facts, statistics and names because it would be going too off-topic and take up too much space and time. Because I review albums, I can immediately recall critical reception for all different albums, which not everyone can do, requiring research that they don't always want to partake in. And I think it's funny how you think discussing black artists in bulk is bad...but you had no issue with discussing white artists in bulk. You were the one who came in talking about white mediocrity, bringing up race for no reason. If anyone was grouping people by race, it was you. I naively assumed that you wanted me to treat both races equally. See? Equal treatment is being viewed as bad treatment. You don't seem to realise that you're asking for black artists to be treated better than white artists here. You seem to think that criticism should only be reserved for white artists, that generalisations are only bad when applied to black artists. No, of course not all of them do vocal manipulations and suchlike but if you do want some specific examples, I call up the usual suspects: Future, Wiz Khalifa, Drake, Lil Wayne, Nicki Minaj, Big Sean, Ty Dolla $ign...their vocals are awful and indecipherable in some cases, their lyrics are empty and meaningless (for the most part), their beats are boring/irritating and so many of them are going down this pretentious, avant garde route. Kanye was one of the few who went for avant garde that I actually liked...on MBDTF and Yeezus. He jumped off a cliff into pretentiousness with TLOP and I'm kinda losing faith in him now. There aren't really enough white rappers to compare them to but certainly, they're picking up the slack in the meantime. I've always liked Eminem, I thought Macklemore's debut album was good and controversial as it is, I like Iggy and I don't know why people don't because I think she's just as good, or at least on the same level, as most black female rappers.

I actually haven't discussed white artists in bulk, nice try though. I specifically named the two artists I was originally discussing (The Chainsmokers and Ed Sheeran) and have continually said I will name more if asked. In discussing this issue, as you've turned it into a white v. black issue, I've been careful to specify "certain white artists" when discussing them. On the other hand you go on to say "it annoys me how they [black artists] sing their songs". So as much as you'd love to think I was generalizing white artists, I wasn't. I was either a) discussing specific artists b) discussing mediocre white artists, which I've more than specified is not all white artists or c) discussed subsets or subgenres of white artists. Not once did I ever, ever say "all white artists" are this or that. If you could kindly not put words in my mouth to try to make a non-existent point, that'd be great. 

Thank you for finally providing some names of artists. That's all great. I'm happy you have your opinions on these specific  black artists. They're your opinions, so I won't comment much on them.

22 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Could I ask what is so negative about white artists taking inspiration from black artists and trends? Inspiration is anyone's for the taking. I don't care if anyone wants to take stuff from my culture or country, just respect it and don't misrepresent it. To suggest that we should stay in our own racial lanes in music creation is segregation talk. In the case of Ed, even when we do make the music that's expected of us according to our race, it still isn't good enough for you. Another big myth that you're ignited here is the one that goes "white people are credited with starting trends invented by black people." While I won't deny that inspiration is taken, I can assure you that whites are not credited with it. Now, more than ever, the internet is quick to expose where it actually originated from and make sure everyone knows it. I don't know one white person who claims that Miley invented twerking. I mean, it's not as if we've not seen dancing like it before she was even born. No sane person thinks that white people invented dreadlocks or hip hop music. But as I've often seen, people want to re-write history nowadays. They want us to believe that this white artists were glorified for their piggybacking of black culture and trends and made out that they were the inventors of it. The exact opposite is true. They are always widely villified - Iggy for singing in a deep south accent, Miley for twerking, Kylie for wearing dreadlocks, Katy for using the term 'thot' in a music video. Look up all these instances, and you'll get numerous online articles villifying them for it and the online commentators agree. People just conveniently like to forget history where it suits them. We are constantly being reminded about where this stuff all came from and that whites are appropriating it and why its wrong. Widespread acceptance of it is simply not a thing.

There's nothing negative from shared inspiration. It happens for every artist. What is not okay is taking from artists and a) presenting it as your own or b) getting credit for its creation. The latter is not the artists fault, it is the media and general public (which I mentioned earlier). The internet community is a bubble, while twitter may get up in arms about something, realize that twitter or tumblr or this forum is not the general public around the world. We live in a bubble and while we may say "Iggy is from Australia, why is she talking like she grew up in Atlanta?" not everyone may think that. Widespread acceptance on the internet isn't a thing, but you forget there's a whole world not tuned into these social media sites. 

22 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Is the music industry? Race is almost completely on an even footing, provided you sing in English. The one big exception is probably the country music scene but that is hardly as big as it once was anyway. And I don't ignore the plight of people, I do choose to see it...when it matters. Not where it has no relevance. Music, of all things, should be a race-free issue.

That's completely debatable, in terms of "race being on an even footing". Music is not a race-free issue. It's a form of art and art is representative of peoples lives and race is a part of peoples lives. You don't get to dictate what art should or should not be. 

22 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

And trust me, I will bring up all races when I need to, it just seemed overwhelmingly clear that when talking about racism in the music industry, most of us are talking about blacks. Which is ironic, as after whites, they are the most represented race in music. It's Asian and Hispanic artists we should be talking about if misrepresentation is the issue.

That's funny, because my original debates/discussions with you pertained to me referring to all non-white musicians. I was not specifically talking about black artists because, as you said, there is a growing representation of black musicians across the music industry. While they're included in the non-white spectrum, I was most definitely referring to Asian and Latin artists as well, which you continually ignored. It's funny that you're up to discussing it now that another member on here had to spell it out for you. 

[DemeLarell 931]

39 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Well, I haven't exactly presented all the information to you. If I laid it all out, maybe you could at least see what I'm talking about.

I too, wish I could talk face to face with some people about this kinda stuff. Maybe online, my persona comes off a bit harsh. In reality, I'm a very quiet, gentle, softly spoken person who lets other people speak as I can't stand interruptions unless it's to say something very important. If you saw me like that, maybe your perception of me would be a bit different. By the way, while I didn't actually follow it through to the point where I became qualified in it, I did study sociology briefly at university, so it's not like I'm ignorant about people who aren't like me. By the sounds of things, perhaps some elements of sociology courses have changed since I did it (or maybe it's just in America) but I think the basics are there. I also have a degree in religious studies and theology. I'm also very immersed in Hispanic culture as I grew up surrounded by elements of it along with the people and the language (which is very unusual, considering my heritage and location). So, yeah, I unfortunately feel when confronted with the topic of race and people know I am white, my opinions are very easily dismissed if they are the least bit critical. I think it's just as racist to make negative assumptions of my intelligence/educational level just because I am white. When you've actually been educated and research and are a liberal, open-minded, loving person, it hurts to be put into the category of racist, ignorant mayo whose reality doesn't extend beyond their front door. I think stereotyping and generalising is bad when its done to anyone.

It's not telling them to conform because of their race, though, but just to the style of music that was so good that used to be associated with them. How is that any different from telling Gaga to make pop music like TF again? Are we telling her to sing traditional electro pop about partying and sex because that's what white pop girls do? No, it's just a personal preference for musical taste. To take a racial angle on something like that is really stretching it.

When I talk about statistics in this case, I'm not talking about government surveys or anything. This is purely a music-based point and as such, all I'm referring to when I say "statistics," is the professional critical reviews and chart information. All of which can easily be researched. I think that statistical information is almost 100% solid in this particular case. When talking about statistics in general, your point stands, but music-based statistics are pretty much what you see is what you get.

Ok, I can understand why what I said was shocking but...some people here have said just as much in regards to white artists and you didn't have a problem with that. So, let me understand this: it's wrong to say that black artists get popular because their race has a big devotion to them because they can relate to them...but it's perfectly acceptable to say that white artists get popular for the same reasons? Again, this is double standards. I mean, it's hard to believe that aesthetic relatability doesn't play some kind of role in why some black people like black artists considering that we're constantly hearing demands from them to have more black people in the media to relate to. Personally, I don't get the whole "someone needs to look like me in order to relate to them" ideal. I can relate to anyone if they have a similar personality to me or similar life experiences to me, how they look and sound doesn't come into it. Bear in mind, I would never say to someone that they've got to where they based on their race alone. But in some cases, I'd say it was a factor, although I wouldn't say it to their face. If you think being white has some factor in your success, why not being black?

Well, I've been a bit short with you because I didn't take kindly to you insulting my country and basically saying that our population are a bunch of racists with no taste in music. You clearly don't have much knowledge about my country if you think this is what our music institution is based on because it couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe if you were a bit more open minded about what the reality actually is here, maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed.

I haven't presented facts, statistics and names because it would be going too off-topic and take up too much space and time. Because I review albums, I can immediately recall critical reception for all different albums, which not everyone can do, requiring research that they don't always want to partake in. And I think it's funny how you think discussing black artists in bulk is bad...but you had no issue with discussing white artists in bulk. You were the one who came in talking about white mediocrity, bringing up race for no reason. If anyone was grouping people by race, it was you. I naively assumed that you wanted me to treat both races equally. See? Equal treatment is being viewed as bad treatment. You don't seem to realise that you're asking for black artists to be treated better than white artists here. You seem to think that criticism should only be reserved for white artists, that generalisations are only bad when applied to black artists. No, of course not all of them do vocal manipulations and suchlike but if you do want some specific examples, I call up the usual suspects: Future, Wiz Khalifa, Drake, Lil Wayne, Nicki Minaj, Big Sean, Ty Dolla $ign...their vocals are awful and indecipherable in some cases, their lyrics are empty and meaningless (for the most part), their beats are boring/irritating and so many of them are going down this pretentious, avant garde route. Kanye was one of the few who went for avant garde that I actually liked...on MBDTF and Yeezus. He jumped off a cliff into pretentiousness with TLOP and I'm kinda losing faith in him now. There aren't really enough white rappers to compare them to but certainly, they're picking up the slack in the meantime. I've always liked Eminem, I thought Macklemore's debut album was good and controversial as it is, I like Iggy and I don't know why people don't because I think she's just as good, or at least on the same level, as most black female rappers.

Could I ask what is so negative about white artists taking inspiration from black artists and trends? Inspiration is anyone's for the taking. I don't care if anyone wants to take stuff from my culture or country, just respect it and don't misrepresent it. To suggest that we should stay in our own racial lanes in music creation is segregation talk. In the case of Ed, even when we do make the music that's expected of us according to our race, it still isn't good enough for you. Another big myth that you're ignited here is the one that goes "white people are credited with starting trends invented by black people." While I won't deny that inspiration is taken, I can assure you that whites are not credited with it. Now, more than ever, the internet is quick to expose where it actually originated from and make sure everyone knows it. I don't know one white person who claims that Miley invented twerking. I mean, it's not as if we've not seen dancing like it before she was even born. No sane person thinks that white people invented dreadlocks or hip hop music. But as I've often seen, people want to re-write history nowadays. They want us to believe that this white artists were glorified for their piggybacking of black culture and trends and made out that they were the inventors of it. The exact opposite is true. They are always widely villified - Iggy for singing in a deep south accent, Miley for twerking, Kylie for wearing dreadlocks, Katy for using the term 'thot' in a music video. Look up all these instances, and you'll get numerous online articles villifying them for it and the online commentators agree. People just conveniently like to forget history where it suits them. We are constantly being reminded about where this stuff all came from and that whites are appropriating it and why its wrong. Widespread acceptance of it is simply not a thing.

In the music industry? Race is almost completely on an even footing, provided you sing in English. The one big exception is probably the country music scene but that is hardly as big as it once was anyway. And I don't ignore the plight of people, I do choose to see it...when it matters. Not where it has no relevance. Music, of all things, should be a race-free issue.

And trust me, I will bring up all races when I need to, it just seemed overwhelmingly clear that when talking about racism in the music industry, most of us are talking about blacks. Which is ironic, as after whites, they are the most represented race in music. It's Asian and Hispanic artists we should be talking about if misrepresentation is the issue.

Ok. You are putting words into my mouth, you're getting defensive, and you're trying to fight reality with theories again, so I think it's time to end it here before it escalates. My purpose was to let @Touch It know this was a dead end debate which is what it has come to. I'm sorry and with all due respect some of the stuff you say are fallacies based on pseudo facts. I'm really glad you like to talk. Even though we heavily disagree on think you are an amazing person but I just want to back away rn. 

[YeehawKylie 7,817]

2 minutes ago, DemeLarell said:

Ok. You are putting words into my mouth, you're getting defensive, and you're trying to fight reality with theories again, so I think it's time to end it here before it escalates. My purpose was to let @Touch It know this was a dead end debate which is what it has come to. I'm sorry and with all due respect some of the stuff you say are fallacies based on pseudo facts. I'm really glad you like to talk. Even though we heavily disagree on think you are an amazing person but I just want to back away rn. 

I feel the same way. I've said my piece, and now it's just gotten personal and it's going in circles. I've been nothing but respectful in this debate and that courtesy has not been afforded to me. I'm done here @StrawberryBlond.

[DemeLarell 931]

4 minutes ago, Touch It said:

I feel the same way. I've said my piece, and now it's just gotten personal and it's going in circles. I've been nothing but respectful in this debate and that courtesy has not been afforded to me. I'm done here @StrawberryBlond.

On a brighter note. I see you a lot on here and I love your posts! I just followed you. 

[Epione 10,896]

Thank god UK is leaving EU. This is a disgrace! 

[YeehawKylie 7,817]

48 minutes ago, DemeLarell said:

On a brighter note. I see you a lot on here and I love your posts! I just followed you. 

Thanks! I come on here in waves and, honestly, have been spending a little too much time on here this most recent one. I should probably take a break, but it's nice discussing music on here. Something I don't really get to do with my friends or personal life! I'll give you a follow too, I enjoy seeing your posts as well! 

[DemeLarell 931]

20 minutes ago, Touch It said:

Thanks! I come on here in waves and, honestly, have been spending a little too much time on here this most recent one. I should probably take a break, but it's nice discussing music on here. Something I don't really get to do with my friends or personal life! I'll give you a follow too, I enjoy seeing your posts as well! 

Well that makes someone who does. I usually have the unpopular opinions lol. 

[StrawberryBlond 14,883]

1 hour ago, Touch It said:

You took my words to mean that,  I didn't say that. I said I wasn't shocked that two mediocre white artists comprising (and celebrated by being part) of your top ten didn't shock me. It doesn't. Similar trends probably wouldn't shock me most places, but this thread was about the UK charts this week, so I didn't feel the need to list any other countries that may celebrate the same mediocre talent. And, I already said it wasn't meant to be entirely serious, yet here you are continuing to say I "don't have much knowledge of your country" and "am not open minded". You really have nothing to base those two comments on, you're just saying them to, yet again, be rude. I haven't called you ignorant, close-minded, racist, or anything because I don't know you at all to make a judgement on your character or personality. If you could afford me the same respect, that'd be great. Thanks. 

I actually haven't discussed white artists in bulk, nice try though. I specifically named the two artists I was originally discussing (The Chainsmokers and Ed Sheeran) and have continually said I will name more if asked. In discussing this issue, as you've turned it into a white v. black issue, I've been careful to specify "certain white artists" when discussing them. On the other hand you go on to say "it annoys me how they [black artists] sing their songs". So as much as you'd love to think I was generalizing white artists, I wasn't. I was either a) discussing specific artists b) discussing mediocre white artists, which I've more than specified is not all white artists or c) discussed subsets or subgenres of white artists. Not once did I ever, ever say "all white artists" are this or that. If you could kindly not put words in my mouth to try to make a non-existent point, that'd be great. 

Thank you for finally providing some names of artists. That's all great. I'm happy you have your opinions on these specific  black artists. They're your opinions, so I won't comment much on them.

There's nothing negative from shared inspiration. It happens for every artist. What is not okay is taking from artists and a) presenting it as your own or b) getting credit for its creation. The latter is not the artists fault, it is the media and general public (which I mentioned earlier). The internet community is a bubble, while twitter may get up in arms about something, realize that twitter or tumblr or this forum is not the general public around the world. We live in a bubble and while we may say "Iggy is from Australia, why is she talking like she grew up in Atlanta?" not everyone may think that. Widespread acceptance on the internet isn't a thing, but you forget there's a whole world not tuned into these social media sites. 

That's completely debatable, in terms of "race being on an even footing". Music is not a race-free issue. It's a form of art and art is representative of peoples lives and race is a part of peoples lives. You don't get to dictate what art should or should not be. 

That's funny, because my original debates/discussions with you pertained to me referring to all non-white musicians. I was not specifically talking about black artists because, as you said, there is a growing representation of black musicians across the music industry. While they're included in the non-white spectrum, I was most definitely referring to Asian and Latin artists as well, which you continually ignored. It's funny that you're up to discussing it now that another member on here had to spell it out for you. 

Well, it's sometimes hard to tell online if someone's being serious or not. That's what it all comes down to, essentially. If you didn't mean it that way, ok. It's just that sometimes, a bit of validation is needed.

Using the phrase "white mediocrity," seemed to be talking about white artists in bulk, though. If you think saying "black mediocrity" is bad because it generalises, then why not the other? But your clarification on what you meant by white artists cleared some things up, so that's fine.

Do you at least see the point I'm trying to make when I've named these specific artists, even if you don't strictly agree?

When do white artists present these ideas as their own, though? They'll certainly say if asked or give credit of their own accord. I mentioned why they aren't getting credit for it. Just because you put forward a song that took inspiration from another race or culture without any background as where your inspiration came from does not mean that you're trying to pass off the conception of the idea as your own. We're nowhere near this harsh on black artists when they take on white trends to try to be popular. Not everyone liked Nicki's foray into electro pop but I didn't hear anyone saying that she was stealing from white culture or passing the ideas off as her own even though she never displayed any true understanding of electro music and she just discarded it when it was no longer the hot in thing. Yes, there's a bigger world outside the internet but realise that a lot of them are also thinking the same way. Widespread acceptance offline isn't a thing either. Though, thankfully, I'm pleased to report that no one's as near as obsessed with race as they are online.

When I said music should be a race-free issue, I didn't mean we shouldn't talk about race. I meant that we should quantify it in racial terms. We shouldn't define genres as black or white or say one race is better at something than another or that certain races shouldn't do certain genres. We should focus on nothing but the music, nothing as superficial as looks and heritage.

For your information, a lack of Asian and Hispanic representation has been at the forefront of my thoughts before anyone else brought it up. I mentioned it during Oscars week, saying that people go on and on about a lack of black representation despite the fact that blacks are the second most represented race at the event and that we're socially conditioned to not even think of other races. So, no, another member did not spell this out to me, it was on my mind for some time.

1 hour ago, DemeLarell said:

Ok. You are putting words into my mouth, you're getting defensive, and you're trying to fight reality with theories again, so I think it's time to end it here before it escalates. My purpose was to let @Touch It know this was a dead end debate which is what it has come to. I'm sorry and with all due respect some of the stuff you say are fallacies based on pseudo facts. I'm really glad you like to talk. Even though we heavily disagree on think you are an amazing person but I just want to back away rn. 

I don't understand at what point in that post that I put words into your mouth. I merely made a suggestion and asked if I got it right. And you can have theories based in reality, you know. And things will come to a dead end if the opposition aren't providing their own theories and it's just me making it one sided. Saying I'm wrong and not much else doesn't really help. But regardless, I'm flattered that even after all this, you still think I'm an "amazing person." To still get respected for my mind even in the face of disagreement is a great compliment.

1 hour ago, Touch It said:

I feel the same way. I've said my piece, and now it's just gotten personal and it's going in circles. I've been nothing but respectful in this debate and that courtesy has not been afforded to me. I'm done here @StrawberryBlond.

I hope you think I've displayed more courtesy in this post. I know you probably don't want to argue much further, but I hope what I wrote still gives you some food for thought.

[Haroon 49,685]

Wow that's huge  A big congratulations to him

I haven't heard the album yet but I've only seen and heard good things about it outside this forum to be honest  I'm not surprised that he's doing very well because he's loved here and has been for quite a while, but I am surprised about how amazingly he's doing because this is that massive and it'd be surprising for anyone even if it's Ed Sheeran  I think he was right about how this album will be bigger than his previous one and then after this he won't have something as big again, like how 21 was huge and so was 25 but not as big as 21, so I imagine Divide will be astronomical and future albums won't be as humongous but will still be doing very well commercially regardless

[RainingOnMe 7,280]

He's an awful person (selfish, incredibly rude, has spoken public hate about Gaga) and I think his music is so hollow with terribly poor vocal performances... more overrated than Beyoncie.

[Fascination 1,130]

I guess that's one more reason not to listen to the radio.

[Katharine Hepburn 4,607]