Beyonce' exposedT again

[Borislshere 53,080]

3 hours ago, Omar Vela said:

HA!  are you trying to say she copied someone by wearing outfits from the same designer? 

[FRANZGA 13,920]

the essays.. 

whatever, I think similarities in tunes in parts usually happen..

but in case of beyonce, she's kinda overrated.. she's a great singer and performer yes.. but the way the media treated her is like more than goddess of music..

[FRANZGA 13,920]

I am sasha fierce deserves every praise tho..

[Thomas P 18,479]

3 hours ago, FRANZGA said:

I am sasha fierce deserves every praise tho..

Yet it received less praise than ARTPOP...

Its her worst album, but has like 6 of her best songs to date, which is really confusing for me.

[FRANZGA 13,920]

1 minute ago, Thomas P said:

Yet it received less praise than ARTPOP...

Its her worst album, but has like 6 of her best songs to date, which is really confusing for me.

Is that the case in US..? cause here in PH I am sasha fierce is the most praised album of bey and last time I heard it scanned 6x plat here which is 90000 units sold.. and now, nobody knows a single song from her.. LOT and RTW is even a hit and more well known here

[Thomas P 18,479]

1 hour ago, FRANZGA said:

Is that the case in US..? cause here in PH I am sasha fierce is the most praised album of bey and last time I heard it scanned 6x plat here which is 90000 units sold.. and now, nobody knows a single song from her.. LOT and RTW is even a hit and more well known here

Really?

 It was one of her most commercially succesful in North America for sure. All the singles except for diva and ego made top 10, and 3 were top 5. It sold like 6 million I think, it just got mixed reviews as an album.  

[StrawberryBlond 14,862]

19 hours ago, Harry said:

Then your problem is with the fans, not Beyonce. No?

Mostly, yes. It's usually the reaction to the artist that I dislike as opposed to the artist in question as they can't do much if there is no reaction, good or bad. But at the same time, Beyonce has been known for crediting herself where she had no right to. The B'Day and Sasha Fierce eras were the worst for that. She credited herself in full-on covers of songs by Victoria Beckham (Resentment), Des'ree (Kissing You, the title of which was even changed and Des'ree was apparently really offended by all this) and Billy Joel (Honesty). Irreplaceable was written completely by Ne-Yo who gave the song to her yet she later claimed live: "I wrote this for all my ladies," and Ne-Yo had to later confirm that he wrote it all but she helped him with vocal arrangements and melodies so it made it a co-write but this is certainly not songwriting in the minds of most of us. She stole If I Were A Boy off unsigned artist BC Jean, changed one word and credited herself as a writer. And the sample of Pon De Floor on Run The World (Girls) was added in as an afterthought after some people pointed out that it totally jacked the beat off the song without giving sample credits.

Basically, I don't trust Beyonce when it comes to credits. Multiple times, she has given herself credit for changing one word or singing in a different key or giving a song the diva treatment and I, like many, consider that not to be songwriting. I know I wouldn't credit myself for such tweaks. This is a business where you can buy credit even if you didn't write a thing. So, I always take Beyonce's credits with a massive pinch of salt, as I do the credits of many other artists who have been famed for having songwriting teams and having limited involvement.

17 hours ago, Bebe said:

And Beyonce created. I really don't think you have understood my comparison at all. Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel with 13 other artists, a Director can have a crew of over 2000+ people with a lot of talented, creative people giving their input.

I'm talking as somebody who studies Screen Production, as somebody who has worked on film sets. I'm comparing the two mediums because I know how integral collaboration is to every creative pursuit. Many great artists have had a team of extremely talented people behind them giving their creative input. 

A Director could feasibly write, produce, direct and star in their own movie - but the result would probably be work that lacks the depth and perspective that it would have if the Director actually collaborated. There are people in other creative fields that do a lot less and get a lot more credit  

We don't look at a director like Alfred Hitchcock and go "Whatever! Psycho was written by Joseph Stefano and  Robert Bloch!  Bernard Herrmann was the one who created the iconic score! His film was edited by George Tomasini, recognised for his  innovative film editing that was 'stylish and experimental'. He also helped set the pace for the iconic shower scene!"

As the main creator, and as the man who was able to curate the talents and ideas of all of these very talented people, Alfred Hitchcock is given due credit for being the mastermind behind Psycho. Hitchcock is seen as one of the greatest Directors who has ever lived.

Now Kubrick was a film director, screenwriter, producer, cinematographer and editor. He helped to write his films and was very hands on in his approach to filmmaking. His process was different to that of Hitchcock's but just as valid - he also created cinematic masterpieces. Kubrick obviously also had to collaborate with a team of people, but like Hitchcock he was the main creator and the brain behind the operations. People worked towards Kubrick and Hitchcock's vision.

You don't seem to like the comparison, but you don't really properly explain why? If you don't like the acting example then fine - but Directors are considered artists, they are considered creators. They work with a team of creative people. You just shove in "same with directors".

Beyonce created Lemonade. She directed a lot of talented people, but she is clearly and undeniably the main creator - she was the executive producer, she appears in every single song as a writer and producer. Her collaborators talk about how involved she was. She had a strong vision, she had concept and she was able to curate, collage and direct a team of people to deliver that concept.

Who exactly would you give credit to for Lemonade? Why shouldn't we think of Beyonce's creative process similarly to that of the creative process of a Director who also curates the talents and contributions of a team of talented people? Why shouldn't we compare it to an artist like Koons who has a team of people creating his sculptures? 

In every creative field we can find examples of artists collaborating with teams of talented creative people in order to execute a vision.

It seems bizarre to say that Beyonce should not be called an artist when she was the main creator and brain behind one of the most creative, acclaimed and successful albums of the year. 

I understand your comparison perfectly, I just don't agree with it. I think the definition of 'collaboration' changes according to the medium. Film naturally requires a large team - making an album does not, if you want it to be. There are singers out there who have written, produced and recorded an album completely on their own. But you can't do that with a film. As long as you have the capability in the medium to do everything yourself, your involvement in the project will be judged accordingly. This is why we're so strict on singers but not on directors. Directors have specific jobs to do and they won't work with certain equipment or act, therefore, they will be praised for the things they did do, not what they didn't. Plus, the Oscars pick up on the jobs of the team that get under-represented in the grand scheme of things. The Grammys do not, which seems very unfair.

I think I did properly explain why I didn't like the comparison. Directors do a lot of 'calling the shots' more than anything and directing a vision but singers who are artists really tend to make the project, involve themselves in every part of it, vocals, instruments, writing, everything whereas a director only limits themselves to being the boss of the project. Music creation and song creation are completely different.

Beyonce doesn't collaborate in the traditional sense. How true musical collaboration works is, for example, 2 people sitting in a room with guitars and talking about song topics. One is decided on and they bounce ideas off each other, one starts playing a tune and the other joins in, someone shouts out a random lyric and it gets added in, that sort of thing. Gaga does that. She talks about how she did that with Mark Ronson and Beck. That's truly how musical collaboration works but that's clearly not how Beyonce works. She doesn't play instruments, she can't have a jam session. She submits ideas for songs, one gets written for her, she orders some of the production to change, amends a lyric or two, that's it. Others create, she tweaks. That just helping along what was already done, the same way an art teacher would make suggestions to your completed work to improve on it.

I would give credit to every single writer and producer on Lemonade, not to mention everyone involved in the making of the film. Without them, Beyonce wouldn't be what she is. There's no point comparing her to a director or another form of artist (by the way, I didn't know Koons did that - some 'artist.'). They aren't music. Can't be compared.

Most creative albums of the year? I highly contest that. I think of originality when I think of creative. Beyonce gets far too much praise and other artists don't get enough. Gaga writes basically all her lyrics and to this day, her ability for doing so still gets doubted, yet Beyonce slaps her name on anything she wants and people praise her for it. Don't know how true artists bite their tongue when this stuff goes on.

[xoxo cupcakke 4,781]

I don't think the issue is that Beyoncé samples others' work; sampling and collabs are some pretty smart choices to make when making music. My issue with Beyoncé is that everyone treats her as if she did this all by herself, when, in reality, she had so much help to even express her ideas. And it's not like Beyoncé is so humble as to not take credit for herself, at least it seems like

Not saying Lemonade is a terrible album or that Beyoncé is a terrible person, just saying that Beyoncé wishes she had so much talent to create such a vision by herself or with as little assistance as possible

[xoxo cupcakke 4,781]

13 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Mostly, yes. It's usually the reaction to the artist that I dislike as opposed to the artist in question as they can't do much if there is no reaction, good or bad. But at the same time, Beyonce has been known for crediting herself where she had no right to. The B'Day and Sasha Fierce eras were the worst for that. She credited herself in full-on covers of songs by Victoria Beckham (Resentment), Des'ree (Kissing You, the title of which was even changed and Des'ree was apparently really offended by all this) and Billy Joel (Honesty). Irreplaceable was written completely by Ne-Yo who gave the song to her yet she later claimed live: "I wrote this for all my ladies," and Ne-Yo had to later confirm that he wrote it all but she helped him with vocal arrangements and melodies so it made it a co-write but this is certainly not songwriting in the minds of most of us. She stole If I Were A Boy off unsigned artist BC Jean, changed one word and credited herself as a writer. And the sample of Pon De Floor on Run The World (Girls) was added in as an afterthought after some people pointed out that it totally jacked the beat off the song without giving sample credits.

Basically, I don't trust Beyonce when it comes to credits. Multiple times, she has given herself credit for changing one word or singing in a different key or giving a song the diva treatment and I, like many, consider that not to be songwriting. I know I wouldn't credit myself for such tweaks. This is a business where you can buy credit even if you didn't write a thing. So, I always take Beyonce's credits with a massive pinch of salt, as I do the credits of many other artists who have been famed for having songwriting teams and having limited involvement.

I understand your comparison perfectly, I just don't agree with it. I think the definition of 'collaboration' changes according to the medium. Film naturally requires a large team - making an album does not, if you want it to be. There are singers out there who have written, produced and recorded an album completely on their own. But you can't do that with a film. As long as you have the capability in the medium to do everything yourself, your involvement in the project will be judged accordingly. This is why we're so strict on singers but not on directors. Directors have specific jobs to do and they won't work with certain equipment or act, therefore, they will be praised for the things they did do, not what they didn't. Plus, the Oscars pick up on the jobs of the team that get under-represented in the grand scheme of things. The Grammys do not, which seems very unfair.

I think I did properly explain why I didn't like the comparison. Directors do a lot of 'calling the shots' more than anything and directing a vision but singers who are artists really tend to make the project, involve themselves in every part of it, vocals, instruments, writing, everything whereas a director only limits themselves to being the boss of the project. Music creation and song creation are completely different.

Beyonce doesn't collaborate in the traditional sense. How true musical collaboration works is, for example, 2 people sitting in a room with guitars and talking about song topics. One is decided on and they bounce ideas off each other, one starts playing a tune and the other joins in, someone shouts out a random lyric and it gets added in, that sort of thing. Gaga does that. She talks about how she did that with Mark Ronson and Beck. That's truly how musical collaboration works but that's clearly not how Beyonce works. She doesn't play instruments, she can't have a jam session. She submits ideas for songs, one gets written for her, she orders some of the production to change, amends a lyric or two, that's it. Others create, she tweaks. That just helping along what was already done, the same way an art teacher would make suggestions to your completed work to improve on it.

I would give credit to every single writer and producer on Lemonade, not to mention everyone involved in the making of the film. Without them, Beyonce wouldn't be what she is. There's no point comparing her to a director or another form of artist (by the way, I didn't know Koons did that - some 'artist.'). They aren't music. Can't be compared.

Most creative albums of the year? I highly contest that. I think of originality when I think of creative. Beyonce gets far too much praise and other artists don't get enough. Gaga writes basically all her lyrics and to this day, her ability for doing so still gets doubted, yet Beyonce slaps her name on anything she wants and people praise her for it. Don't know how true artists bite their tongue when this stuff goes on.

My thoughts exactly

[Bebe 17,093]

9 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I understand your comparison perfectly, I just don't agree with it. I think the definition of 'collaboration' changes according to the medium. Film naturally requires a large team - making an album does not, if you want it to be. There are singers out there who have written, produced and recorded an album completely on their own. But you can't do that with a film. As long as you have the capability in the medium to do everything yourself, your involvement in the project will be judged accordingly. This is why we're so strict on singers but not on directors. Directors have specific jobs to do and they won't work with certain equipment or act, therefore, they will be praised for the things they did do, not what they didn't. Plus, the Oscars pick up on the jobs of the team that get under-represented in the grand scheme of things. The Grammys do not, which seems very unfair.

I think I did properly explain why I didn't like the comparison. Directors do a lot of 'calling the shots' more than anything and directing a vision but singers who are artists really tend to make the project, involve themselves in every part of it, vocals, instruments, writing, everything whereas a director only limits themselves to being the boss of the project. Music creation and song creation are completely different.

Beyonce doesn't collaborate in the traditional sense. How true musical collaboration works is, for example, 2 people sitting in a room with guitars and talking about song topics. One is decided on and they bounce ideas off each other, one starts playing a tune and the other joins in, someone shouts out a random lyric and it gets added in, that sort of thing. Gaga does that. She talks about how she did that with Mark Ronson and Beck. That's truly how musical collaboration works but that's clearly not how Beyonce works. She doesn't play instruments, she can't have a jam session. She submits ideas for songs, one gets written for her, she orders some of the production to change, amends a lyric or two, that's it. Others create, she tweaks. That just helping along what was already done, the same way an art teacher would make suggestions to your completed work to improve on it.

I would give credit to every single writer and producer on Lemonade, not to mention everyone involved in the making of the film. Without them, Beyonce wouldn't be what she is. There's no point comparing her to a director or another form of artist (by the way, I didn't know Koons did that - some 'artist.'). They aren't music. Can't be compared.

Most creative albums of the year? I highly contest that. I think of originality when I think of creative. Beyonce gets far too much praise and other artists don't get enough. Gaga writes basically all her lyrics and to this day, her ability for doing so still gets doubted, yet Beyonce slaps her name on anything she wants and people praise her for it. Don't know how true artists bite their tongue when this stuff goes on.

But a Director could feasibly do a lot more. Do you think Directors should write, direct, produce, edit and star in their own films? I've done that in the short films I've made  (well I haven't actually starred in any of my short films - I don't like being in front of the camera ) I've also set up the lighting, taken care of wardrobe and set design and I've been the cinematographer and cameraman for a lot of my shoots too.

Apparently you can only be praised or given credit as a creator if you are hands on involved with as much of the process as possible, regardless of whether you are the most qualified for the job. Apparently it doesn't matter if everyone involved was working towards a vision that you laid out to them, it doesn't matter if you contribute the most to the project, it doesn't matter if you curated the work, it doesn't even matter if you contributed (at least in some small part) to every part of the creative process. 

Do you not think that a visual R&B album that also encompasses pop, reggae, blues, rock, hip-hop, soul, funk, Americana, country, gospel, electronic and trap  might also 'naturally require a large team'? Do you not think an album so ambitious and wide in it's scope might require the talents of specialised writers and producers to help in its creation?

"There are singers out there who have written, produced and recorded an album completely on their own. "

And there are painters out there who have conceptualised, sketched and painted an entire mural on their own. There are also praised, iconic painters who have collaborated with teams at their studio. As another user pointed out. More than 90% of Rembrandt's paintings are actually collaborations between him and his students. I also tried to point out the same thing with Koons, but you then turned on him as well  Lemonade was an ambitious project, as stated above it encompasses a lot of genres and a lot of influences.

You can cling to the myth of the super-solo creator all you want, but 99% of the time. It's just that. A myth.

"Beyonce doesn't collaborate in the traditional sense."

Yeah...  So? You say that's not how 'true' musical collaboration works but who are you to say that? 

"that's clearly not how Beyonce works. She doesn't play instruments, she can't have a jam session. She submits ideas for songs, one gets written for her, she orders some of the production to change, amends a lyric or two, that's it. Others create, she tweaks. That just helping along what was already done, the same way an art teacher would make suggestions to your completed work to improve on it."

But that's completely contrary to what every single collaborator on this album has said. She is the executive producer and you think that's all she did? 

As I said to another user:

"Interestingly Daddy Lessons is the song where Beyonce is credited the least, she clearly still directed the theme and tone of the song - she communicated her vision to the writers. But it's not like the other songs from Lemonade, where we know she would ask for songs to be mixed together. She would take a lyrical sketch and turn it into a hook and take the pre-chorus from another song and turn it into the chorus. She would add a sample to the production and ask for the lyrics from the verses of another song to be re-written to match the theme of this song. That's what collaborators like Sia and Jack White have said. 

MikeWiLLMadeIt said she wrote the lyrics to basically all of Formation. 

Jonny Coffer who co-wrote and co-produced Freedom said "Beyoncé is really involved at all stages, she runs the show and will say what she likes and doesn't like and is always making suggestions. She knows exactly how she wants it to sound and how to get there."

Rapper-producer MeLo-X, who had a hand in writing "Hold Up," produced "Sorry," and scored the album's accompanying film said "She has a way of creating that I've never seen before as an artist, she produces, alters and arranges tracks in ways I wouldn't think of."

MNEK who contributed to songs like 'Hold Up' says that when he met Beyoncé, she already had the idea for each song to correspond to a different title card in the film, featuring words like "Intuition" or "Redemption." "She told me, 'This is the direction I want the lyrics to go, but the great thing about her team was that they were just like, 'We asked you to be a part of this because we like what you do, so just do your thing.' I did a few verse things, and she heard one bit, that middle eight, and loved it."

Jack White said "I was really happy to work with her. She took just sort of a sketch of a lyrical outline and turned into the most bodacious, vicious, incredible song. I don't even know what you'd classify it as -- soul, rock and roll, or whatever it is. 'Don't Hurt Yourself' is incredibly intense; I’m so amazed at what she did with it."

Sia said that Beyonce "visits each room and will contribute and let us know what she’s feeling and what she's not feeling. Lyrically, melodically, anything. She’s very Frankenstein when she comes to songs. She’ll say, ‘I like the verse from that. I like the pre-chorus from that. Can you try mixing it with that?’"

With each collaborator we get a clear story, that not only did Beyonce contribute to writing and producing the album herself, but she oversaw everything her collaborators did,  gave clear direction over what she wanted, had a greater vision in mind and was able to curate the ideas and talents of her team and piece them together to create a cohesive piece of work that suited her vision.

In the end what was just a lyrical sketch, a sample, a melody, a theme, a beat, an instrumental, a pre-chorus turns into a complete song. All these ideas merged together by Beyonce, the executive producer.  The album was created by Beyonce, a team of people working towards her vision and by Beyonce curating their work, directing them and mixing their ideas together to satisfy her greater vision.

We can't expect artists to be superhumans who are the best songwriters, best producers, the best lyricists, the best instrumentalists who can adapt to every genre and are masters at every aspect of the album creation process. Lemonade encompasses a variety of genres including R&B, pop, reggae, blues, rock, hip-hop, soul, funk, Americana, country, gospel, electronic and trap. I can't think of anyone who could create such a cohesive, yet diverse piece of work by themselves. If you want to create an album that's so ambitious then you need to collaborate with a wide range of writers and producers who specialise in certain genres and you need to be able to direct this team in order to make sure the result is cohesive.

Beyonce is a brilliant director and executive producer who is able to conceptualise a vision for her work, knows where her talents lie and is able to direct and curate the work of a team of talented musicians in order to create a piece of work that is diverse, critically acclaimed and commercially viable. 

The samples and amount of writers are not something that should be used to drag Beyonce, the size of her team is a reflection of how ambitious the project was. It's a reflection of how wide the musical scope of this album is and how it encompasses so many genres, ideas and themes with such expertise. The acclaim the work has received is a result of the depth of the work, not just thematically but also musically and visually, and how cohesive the work is despite the wide range of influences and collaborators. Such cohesiveness is the result of the executive producer Beyonce, who effectively directed her team and curated their work to serve her grand vision for the project."

This isn't how most albums are created, but it's narrow minded to think that '2 people sitting in a room with guitars' is the only true and valid way to create music. Beyonce clearly acted like a Director here, that takes talent and a creative vision.

"I would give credit to every single writer and producer on Lemonade, not to mention everyone involved in the making of the film. Without them, Beyonce wouldn't be what she is."

But what, no credit to the executive producer? No credit to the woman who appears the most as a writer and producer? no credit to the woman whose team was working towards her clearly laid out and directed goal? No credit to the woman who is credited as the second director for the visual element?

Come on! That's like giving credit to "every single crew member on The Revenant" rather than admitting  Iñárritu was the creative brains behind the project  We know that her team contributed greatly to the project! What your saying sounds like an acceptance speech! Is it that hard to just say "I give the most credit to Beyonce, she was executive producer, she contributed more creatively than any other person, she directed a team of people to work towards her vision"?

Every single writer, producer and director is given their fair credit for what they contributed. Beyonce is the main creator, she was the brains behind it, she was the executive producer. We know that not only from the credits, but from her collaborators, that she was involved not only in actually writing and producing the album herself - but also by directing her team in terms of what lyrics she wants, what production she wants and by weaving together the music and ideas of her team to create something new.

"Most creative albums of the year? I highly contest that. I think of originality when I think of creative.". 

Cool, and there isn't an album out there like Lemonade  You are free to contest the creative merits of Lemonade all you like, but the opinions of experts, the universal acclaim and the accolades for excellence all seem to count for a lot more than your personal opinion (or my personal opinion) when having a serious discussion about it's merits.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but if we are trying to have a conversation about whether Beyonce deserves credit for making Lemonade (it's crazy to me that, that's genuinely the only thing I'm arguing for when it seems so obvious) it's important to note that the work received extremely high acclaim on it's release, was a commercial success and has topped most lists for best album of the year. The universal acclaim and the accolades it has received would be indicative of quite a creative accomplishment, whether you personally find it creative or not.

It's also an indication of the quality of the album, the wide scope of influences and genres and the depth of the work. It's a reflection of how well it achieved it's ambitious goals - something that simply couldn't have been achieved by one person, or two people in a room with a guitar. The creative achievements and universal acclaim are some indication that regardless of personal taste, the album is of a very high quality. It highlights just how ambitious Lemonade was as a project, regardless of whether the album was made in a 'traditional' way perfectly tailored to your standards - what's undeniable is that the result was one of the most creative albums of the year (and that's the words of publications such as  Rolling Stone, Billboard,  Stereogum, Complex, NME, Consequence of Sound and a range of other reputable publications) and it's acclaim is undeniably a result of how Beyonce approached this album. No one person could have delivered a work so diverse and expansive as Lemonade writing and producing everything themselves.

[Harry 26,836]

17 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Mostly, yes. It's usually the reaction to the artist that I dislike as opposed to the artist in question as they can't do much if there is no reaction, good or bad. But at the same time, Beyonce has been known for crediting herself where she had no right to. The B'Day and Sasha Fierce eras were the worst for that. She credited herself in full-on covers of songs by Victoria Beckham (Resentment), Des'ree (Kissing You, the title of which was even changed and Des'ree was apparently really offended by all this) and Billy Joel (Honesty). Irreplaceable was written completely by Ne-Yo who gave the song to her yet she later claimed live: "I wrote this for all my ladies," and Ne-Yo had to later confirm that he wrote it all but she helped him with vocal arrangements and melodies so it made it a co-write but this is certainly not songwriting in the minds of most of us. She stole If I Were A Boy off unsigned artist BC Jean, changed one word and credited herself as a writer. And the sample of Pon De Floor on Run The World (Girls) was added in as an afterthought after some people pointed out that it totally jacked the beat off the song without giving sample credits.

Basically, I don't trust Beyonce when it comes to credits. Multiple times, she has given herself credit for changing one word or singing in a different key or giving a song the diva treatment and I, like many, consider that not to be songwriting. I know I wouldn't credit myself for such tweaks. This is a business where you can buy credit even if you didn't write a thing. So, I always take Beyonce's credits with a massive pinch of salt, as I do the credits of many other artists who have been famed for having songwriting teams and having limited involvement.

Well I always find it amazing that people who criticise her think they know the inner process on all of her albums despite literally all of her collaborators saying how creative, talented and involved she is. I'm not saying she writes every word and I'm not saying that her involvement isn't exaggerated either. But for people to suggest that orchestrating a project like Lemonade just because there are samples and other artists involved is foolish. If you think successfully sampling music is a lazy task then I suggest you try it yourself and see just how tough it is. That's why someone like Kanye IS incredibly gifted musically because it involves a lot of vision and creativity. Hip-hop as a whole was literally founded on this practise, so  dismissing sampling as an art form is to devalidate an entire genre. Very misguided.

Once again, Bey's credits aren't a problem. If she is allowed a credit for changing a word, then your problem is with how credits work. Not her. You have no idea what happens in her studio and neither do I, but the collaborators that have worked with her do indeed know and they have spoken.

If our standard is that every single part of an album must be executed by one person for the artist to deserve acclaim, then you may as well delete the majority of your iTunes library. Including Lana and Gaga. Sure Bey's list of collaborators is longer but it's not concealed. People criticise her for how many people worked on Lemonade and say she's fraudulent, then use a list of credits that SHE provided as a receipt? It's actually really laughable that you can't see why that makes no sense. 

Then again I know you have your mind made up about Bey due to superficial reasons that we won't go into now so I know this whole response will be entirely in vein. Oh well. 

[StrawberryBlond 14,862]

21 hours ago, Bebe said:

But a Director could feasibly do a lot more. Do you think Directors should write, direct, produce, edit and star in their own films? I've done that in the short films I've made  (well I haven't actually starred in any of my short films - I don't like being in front of the camera ) I've also set up the lighting, taken care of wardrobe and set design and I've been the cinematographer and cameraman for a lot of my shoots too.

Apparently you can only be praised or given credit as a creator if you are hands on involved with as much of the process as possible, regardless of whether you are the most qualified for the job. Apparently it doesn't matter if everyone involved was working towards a vision that you laid out to them, it doesn't matter if you contribute the most to the project, it doesn't matter if you curated the work, it doesn't even matter if you contributed (at least in some small part) to every part of the creative process. 

Do you not think that a visual R&B album that also encompasses pop, reggae, blues, rock, hip-hop, soul, funk, Americana, country, gospel, electronic and trap  might also 'naturally require a large team'? Do you not think an album so ambitious and wide in it's scope might require the talents of specialised writers and producers to help in its creation?

"There are singers out there who have written, produced and recorded an album completely on their own. "

And there are painters out there who have conceptualised, sketched and painted an entire mural on their own. There are also praised, iconic painters who have collaborated with teams at their studio. As another user pointed out. More than 90% of Rembrandt's paintings are actually collaborations between him and his students. I also tried to point out the same thing with Koons, but you then turned on him as well  Lemonade was an ambitious project, as stated above it encompasses a lot of genres and a lot of influences.

You can cling to the myth of the super-solo creator all you want, but 99% of the time. It's just that. A myth.

"Beyonce doesn't collaborate in the traditional sense."

Yeah...  So? You say that's not how 'true' musical collaboration works but who are you to say that? 

"that's clearly not how Beyonce works. She doesn't play instruments, she can't have a jam session. She submits ideas for songs, one gets written for her, she orders some of the production to change, amends a lyric or two, that's it. Others create, she tweaks. That just helping along what was already done, the same way an art teacher would make suggestions to your completed work to improve on it."

But that's completely contrary to what every single collaborator on this album has said. She is the executive producer and you think that's all she did? 

As I said to another user:

"Interestingly Daddy Lessons is the song where Beyonce is credited the least, she clearly still directed the theme and tone of the song - she communicated her vision to the writers. But it's not like the other songs from Lemonade, where we know she would ask for songs to be mixed together. She would take a lyrical sketch and turn it into a hook and take the pre-chorus from another song and turn it into the chorus. She would add a sample to the production and ask for the lyrics from the verses of another song to be re-written to match the theme of this song. That's what collaborators like Sia and Jack White have said. 

MikeWiLLMadeIt said she wrote the lyrics to basically all of Formation. 

Jonny Coffer who co-wrote and co-produced Freedom said "Beyoncé is really involved at all stages, she runs the show and will say what she likes and doesn't like and is always making suggestions. She knows exactly how she wants it to sound and how to get there."

Rapper-producer MeLo-X, who had a hand in writing "Hold Up," produced "Sorry," and scored the album's accompanying film said "She has a way of creating that I've never seen before as an artist, she produces, alters and arranges tracks in ways I wouldn't think of."

MNEK who contributed to songs like 'Hold Up' says that when he met Beyoncé, she already had the idea for each song to correspond to a different title card in the film, featuring words like "Intuition" or "Redemption." "She told me, 'This is the direction I want the lyrics to go, but the great thing about her team was that they were just like, 'We asked you to be a part of this because we like what you do, so just do your thing.' I did a few verse things, and she heard one bit, that middle eight, and loved it."

Jack White said "I was really happy to work with her. She took just sort of a sketch of a lyrical outline and turned into the most bodacious, vicious, incredible song. I don't even know what you'd classify it as -- soul, rock and roll, or whatever it is. 'Don't Hurt Yourself' is incredibly intense; I’m so amazed at what she did with it."

Sia said that Beyonce "visits each room and will contribute and let us know what she’s feeling and what she's not feeling. Lyrically, melodically, anything. She’s very Frankenstein when she comes to songs. She’ll say, ‘I like the verse from that. I like the pre-chorus from that. Can you try mixing it with that?’"

With each collaborator we get a clear story, that not only did Beyonce contribute to writing and producing the album herself, but she oversaw everything her collaborators did,  gave clear direction over what she wanted, had a greater vision in mind and was able to curate the ideas and talents of her team and piece them together to create a cohesive piece of work that suited her vision.

In the end what was just a lyrical sketch, a sample, a melody, a theme, a beat, an instrumental, a pre-chorus turns into a complete song. All these ideas merged together by Beyonce, the executive producer.  The album was created by Beyonce, a team of people working towards her vision and by Beyonce curating their work, directing them and mixing their ideas together to satisfy her greater vision.

We can't expect artists to be superhumans who are the best songwriters, best producers, the best lyricists, the best instrumentalists who can adapt to every genre and are masters at every aspect of the album creation process. Lemonade encompasses a variety of genres including R&B, pop, reggae, blues, rock, hip-hop, soul, funk, Americana, country, gospel, electronic and trap. I can't think of anyone who could create such a cohesive, yet diverse piece of work by themselves. If you want to create an album that's so ambitious then you need to collaborate with a wide range of writers and producers who specialise in certain genres and you need to be able to direct this team in order to make sure the result is cohesive.

Beyonce is a brilliant director and executive producer who is able to conceptualise a vision for her work, knows where her talents lie and is able to direct and curate the work of a team of talented musicians in order to create a piece of work that is diverse, critically acclaimed and commercially viable. 

The samples and amount of writers are not something that should be used to drag Beyonce, the size of her team is a reflection of how ambitious the project was. It's a reflection of how wide the musical scope of this album is and how it encompasses so many genres, ideas and themes with such expertise. The acclaim the work has received is a result of the depth of the work, not just thematically but also musically and visually, and how cohesive the work is despite the wide range of influences and collaborators. Such cohesiveness is the result of the executive producer Beyonce, who effectively directed her team and curated their work to serve her grand vision for the project."

This isn't how most albums are created, but it's narrow minded to think that '2 people sitting in a room with guitars' is the only true and valid way to create music. Beyonce clearly acted like a Director here, that takes talent and a creative vision.

"I would give credit to every single writer and producer on Lemonade, not to mention everyone involved in the making of the film. Without them, Beyonce wouldn't be what she is."

But what, no credit to the executive producer? No credit to the woman who appears the most as a writer and producer? no credit to the woman whose team was working towards her clearly laid out and directed goal? No credit to the woman who is credited as the second director for the visual element?

Come on! That's like giving credit to "every single crew member on The Revenant" rather than admitting  Iñárritu was the creative brains behind the project  We know that her team contributed greatly to the project! What your saying sounds like an acceptance speech! Is it that hard to just say "I give the most credit to Beyonce, she was executive producer, she contributed more creatively than any other person, she directed a team of people to work towards her vision"?

Every single writer, producer and director is given their fair credit for what they contributed. Beyonce is the main creator, she was the brains behind it, she was the executive producer. We know that not only from the credits, but from her collaborators, that she was involved not only in actually writing and producing the album herself - but also by directing her team in terms of what lyrics she wants, what production she wants and by weaving together the music and ideas of her team to create something new.

"Most creative albums of the year? I highly contest that. I think of originality when I think of creative.". 

Cool, and there isn't an album out there like Lemonade  You are free to contest the creative merits of Lemonade all you like, but the opinions of experts, the universal acclaim and the accolades for excellence all seem to count for a lot more than your personal opinion (or my personal opinion) when having a serious discussion about it's merits.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but if we are trying to have a conversation about whether Beyonce deserves credit for making Lemonade (it's crazy to me that, that's genuinely the only thing I'm arguing for when it seems so obvious) it's important to note that the work received extremely high acclaim on it's release, was a commercial success and has topped most lists for best album of the year. The universal acclaim and the accolades it has received would be indicative of quite a creative accomplishment, whether you personally find it creative or not.

It's also an indication of the quality of the album, the wide scope of influences and genres and the depth of the work. It's a reflection of how well it achieved it's ambitious goals - something that simply couldn't have been achieved by one person, or two people in a room with a guitar. The creative achievements and universal acclaim are some indication that regardless of personal taste, the album is of a very high quality. It highlights just how ambitious Lemonade was as a project, regardless of whether the album was made in a 'traditional' way perfectly tailored to your standards - what's undeniable is that the result was one of the most creative albums of the year (and that's the words of publications such as  Rolling Stone, Billboard,  Stereogum, Complex, NME, Consequence of Sound and a range of other reputable publications) and it's acclaim is undeniably a result of how Beyonce approached this album. No one person could have delivered a work so diverse and expansive as Lemonade writing and producing everything themselves.

You put down your opinion very well and I certainly respect your way of looking at things. I don't mean that I think an artist should do everything by themselves or that there is only one legit way of collaborating. Everything I that I say is more an answer to the obsessed fans who exaggerate her involvement rather than Beyonce herself more than anything. And critics, well, I've always struggled to agree with them, as anyone who's ever seen my rants about them can attest. Suffice to say, I think they can be very inconsistent and weirdly lacking in musical knowledge history at times. But even though I don't think Lemonade is by any means a masterpiece, I can certainly feel quality in it and can appreciate the effort put in to create something amazing. I just get a bit tired of hearing it be constantly praised when I think there's better out there, that's all.

8 hours ago, Harry said:

Well I always find it amazing that people who criticise her think they know the inner process on all of her albums despite literally all of her collaborators saying how creative, talented and involved she is. I'm not saying she writes every word and I'm not saying that her involvement isn't exaggerated either. But for people to suggest that orchestrating a project like Lemonade just because there are samples and other artists involved is foolish. If you think successfully sampling music is a lazy task then I suggest you try it yourself and see just how tough it is. That's why someone like Kanye IS incredibly gifted musically because it involves a lot of vision and creativity. Hip-hop as a whole was literally founded on this practise, so  dismissing sampling as an art form is to devalidate an entire genre. Very misguided.

Once again, Bey's credits aren't a problem. If she is allowed a credit for changing a word, then your problem is with how credits work. Not her. You have no idea what happens in her studio and neither do I, but the collaborators that have worked with her do indeed know and they have spoken.

If our standard is that every single part of an album must be executed by one person for the artist to deserve acclaim, then you may as well delete the majority of your iTunes library. Including Lana and Gaga. Sure Bey's list of collaborators is longer but it's not concealed. People criticise her for how many people worked on Lemonade and say she's fraudulent, then use a list of credits that SHE provided as a receipt? It's actually really laughable that you can't see why that makes no sense. 

Then again I know you have your mind made up about Bey due to superficial reasons that we won't go into now so I know this whole response will be entirely in vein. Oh well. 

I'm not dismissing sampling as an art form, I just think it's different to creating your own original beat and should thus be critiqued differently. Well, yes, I am annoyed more at the business of how credits work as Beyonce is far from the only artist who does this.  Some of her collaboraters say she's hugely involved, others, not so much. I've never seen Beyonce talk about her albums like Gaga does. Not saying she doesn't write at all, but her true involvement remains shrouded in mystery.

Like I said above, I don't claim that every album must be created by one person, I was just saying that it is possible and that some albums involve more solo involvement than others. I never said she was fraudulant regarding her new work because she does indeed provide the credits, I'm talking about the times in the past when she inserted credit into other people's songs despite the fact that she didn't change them lyrically.

I have no superficial reasons for disliking her (except that seeing her get endlessly praised is a bit annoying), any critique I have made of her comes purely based on her music and personality, just like I do every other artist. Your response isn't in vain, I do get it, but it's just the audience reaction that I'm criticising more than anything and as you said, that's nothing to do with her.

But anyway, no hard feelings. You have your opinion, I have mine. I've had a really bad day and don't want to make things worse.

[Mr Ricky 9,056]

Holy **** guys.  

These essays and over the top constructive replies. Some people can learn from this. 

[thediamxnds 275]

soooooooo many essays

i wonder how teachers feel

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

[BlondeQueenOfGGD 25,454]

Gosh, the essays instead of stupid gifs! I never thought I'd see the day!