Lady Gaga's Sexist Subtext

[SpadesToStart 1,655]

Of course sexism and misogyny are in Gaga's phrases, they're in all of our lexicon because our society is inherently quite sexist at this point in time.  Not to mention the fact that Gaga was raised in a very traditional family that probably didn't pay a lot of attention to political correctness or gender roles.

Also, people put Gaga on way too high of a pedestal for social issues.  I remember when people were bitching because she wasn't commenting on some Black Lives Matter issue.  She is a normal person whose primary concern is her art, and I don't expect her to be a paragon of virtue on every social front.

To the OP, while this conversation is important and relevant, the fact that you're centering it on Gaga and judging specific things she has said is unfair.

[Hellspont 1,468]

Delete this site

[Jester 6,197]

This thread is still alive 

 

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

18 hours ago, Gracious Gaga said:

Hi, thank you.  I appreciate your advice and concern for me in regards to health anxiety, stress, and depression.  That is very kind of you and definitely something that I will take into action from here on out!  While I truly don't spend each and everyday obsessing over this, when something triggering comes up, however, I will speak out about it.

Please be aware of the millions of people who actually are negatively impacted by society in this exact way and never end up finding the strength to pay no mind to it and sometimes take their lives because they don't ever feel stable in today's society.   All I dream to do is make the world a safer place for people like that- and I think you and I both know those people exist everywhere.  And I am not someone who is going to brush that off as "no big deal, there's bigger issues in the world"...I am aware of many different issues in the world, please understand that- but today's thread is about this one in particular. 

If someone here supplied evidence as to why society is better off keeping these types of sexually objectifying and stereotyping and classifying phrases, then I would consider those opposing views to be more valid and a conversation worth having..but if people are only going to disagree/tell me I'm wrong solely because they feel I'm "obsessive" or "overthinking" or "too sensitive"...that's not really what my argument is about, and I personally don't think it is a strong or convincing counter argument on their behalf (in regards to the issue discussed in OP). While yes I do appreciate your advice up here, it doesn't really counter my objective).  

I think it's unhealthy how far you've let this topic go on for, though. I've had my fair share of online arguments in my time but it hasn't gone on for 32+ pages or has been over such a minor issue. I'd rather you put your time and effort into a more meaningful issue. You should be dissecting the things genuine sexists say, not something that Gaga, feminist and LGBT supporter, says without analysing what she said before she said it. As humans, we're not supposed to overanalyse everything we say and if you do, you're not living.

I do understand the issue you're talking about but the problem is, you've got the wrong end of the stick. Sometimes, what is abundantly clear to someone, isn't so clear to someone else. I honestly don't see how you've come to the conclusion that you have based on what Gaga said. It's obvious that she was meaning: "They were afraid of showing emotion because as men, they're raised to keep a strong upper lip. I would have no issue with them crying, but you know, I respect their choice to cover it up." That's it. I don't see anything wrong with that and I'm going to tell you why below.

You say you want to be given a valid reason as to why we need to keep these limiting stereotypes and roles in our society. Well, while I don't support those things, I will say that your belief that it's just men who are bound to these laws of not crying isn't quite correct. Don't you think women ever feel embarrassed to cry too? I know I do. I prefer to cry alone. Because showing high levels of emotion like that can be unsettling for others, you're conscious about your red eyes and facial contortions, you're afraid that your cause for crying won't be seen as valid by those around you and you fear that you'll be seen as weak and too overly sensitive. I've had to hold back from crying around bullies before because I knew that seeing my tears would mean they would have won. This is something that affects men and women. It is absurd to think that it's purely a man's issue. Music is one of my reasons for living and I've been emotionally moved by many a song in my time and have shed a lot of tears over them but the idea of doing that in front of anyone else makes me break out in a sweat unless I'm at a funeral or something. Even being a woman, and knowing that I can easily cry without criticism, I'm afraid to do it. Ironically, one of the reasons is that I'd be seen as a typical sensitive woman crying, our only way of dealing with emotion because we're weak (and that's certainly not the image I want to project). Apart from my childhood (a very reasonable period in which to cry), I have only let myself cry in front of others a handful of times and only over something massive, like death. In a situation that big, I don't care who witnesses it. But anything else, I bite my lip and get on with it, crying seems like an over-exaggeration. While I can fully understand why someone would cry over a song, I know a lot of others don't, so I try not to do it in front of others. Sometimes gender doesn't come into it, it's about personal image, regardless of gender. Society teaches all of us to put on a brave face. That if we do cry, we shouldn't do it for long. That crying is a bad thing. It's more society that has to change its views on crying in general as opposed to the implications of it from each gender.

I get the feeling that you've only talked to other men about this matter and that's why you've not considered this. If you cast the net wider and spoke to everyone, you'd be surprised at how so many of us experience the same problems that we usually consider gender/race/sexuality specific. You might find that we all have more in common than we think.

12 hours ago, SilkSpectre0 said:

I can't believe there are people on gaga daily using 'SJW' as an insult. It used to only be asshole conservatives who thought the concept of social justice was a waste of time.

An SJW isn't the same as a person who fights for equality. An SJW is someone who nitpicks, who looks for any excuse to be offended, over-analyses, sees issues where there are none, insults everyone else's intelligence by assuming they're ignorant, is offended on behalf of others even if the people in question are not, thinks they are morally superior to anyone who hasn't researched the broad spectrum of social issues that they have, reside behind computer screens venting instead of actually challenging people in reality and prefers to live in echo chambers where they only converse with others who hold their exact same opinion. They aren't interested in changing the people who hold negative views, they just want to recruit more people who think the same as them for no other reason than to build an army that does nothing. People should not aim to be an SJW, but rather to be someone with a clear head on their shoulders who fights for true equality, researches things from a logical point of view, questions their own theories, takes the bad with the good and works on challenging those who think otherwise.

[Chic 20,830]

7 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I think it's unhealthy how far you've let this topic go on for, though. I've had my fair share of online arguments in my time but it hasn't gone on for 32+ pages or has been over such a minor issue. I'd rather you put your time and effort into a more meaningful issue. You should be dissecting the things genuine sexists say, not something that Gaga, feminist and LGBT supporter, says without analysing what she said before she said it. As humans, we're not supposed to overanalyse everything we say and if you do, you're not living.

I do understand the issue you're talking about but the problem is, you've got the wrong end of the stick. Sometimes, what is abundantly clear to someone, isn't so clear to someone else. I honestly don't see how you've come to the conclusion that you have based on what Gaga said. It's obvious that she was meaning: "They were afraid of showing emotion because as men, they're raised to keep a strong upper lip. I would have no issue with them crying, but you know, I respect their choice to cover it up." That's it. I don't see anything wrong with that and I'm going to tell you why below.

You say you want to be given a valid reason as to why we need to keep these limiting stereotypes and roles in our society. Well, while I don't support those things, I will say that your belief that it's just men who are bound to these laws of not crying isn't quite correct. Don't you think women ever feel embarrassed to cry too? I know I do. I prefer to cry alone. Because showing high levels of emotion like that can be unsettling for others, you're conscious about your red eyes and facial contortions, you're afraid that your cause for crying won't be seen as valid by those around you and you fear that you'll be seen as weak and too overly sensitive. I've had to hold back from crying around bullies before because I knew that seeing my tears would mean they would have won. This is something that affects men and women. It is absurd to think that it's purely a man's issue. Music is one of my reasons for living and I've been emotionally moved by many a song in my time and have shed a lot of tears over them but the idea of doing that in front of anyone else makes me break out in a sweat unless I'm at a funeral or something. Even being a woman, and knowing that I can easily cry without criticism, I'm afraid to do it. Ironically, one of the reasons is that I'd be seen as a typical sensitive woman crying, our only way of dealing with emotion because we're weak (and that's certainly not the image I want to project). Apart from my childhood (a very reasonable period in which to cry), I have only let myself cry in front of others a handful of times and only over something massive, like death. In a situation that big, I don't care who witnesses it. But anything else, I bite my lip and get on with it, crying seems like an over-exaggeration. While I can fully understand why someone would cry over a song, I know a lot of others don't, so I try not to do it in front of others. Sometimes gender doesn't come into it, it's about personal image, regardless of gender. Society teaches all of us to put on a brave face. That if we do cry, we shouldn't do it for long. That crying is a bad thing. It's more society that has to change its views on crying in general as opposed to the implications of it from each gender.

I get the feeling that you've only talked to other men about this matter and that's why you've not considered this. If you cast the net wider and spoke to everyone, you'd be surprised at how so many of us experience the same problems that we usually consider gender/race/sexuality specific. You might find that we all have more in common than we think.

An SJW isn't the same as a person who fights for equality. An SJW is someone who nitpicks, who looks for any excuse to be offended, over-analyses, sees issues where there are none, insults everyone else's intelligence by assuming they're ignorant, is offended on behalf of others even if the people in question are not, thinks they are morally superior to anyone who hasn't researched the broad spectrum of social issues that they have, reside behind computer screens venting instead of actually challenging people in reality and prefers to live in echo chambers where they only converse with others who hold their exact same opinion. They aren't interested in changing the people who hold negative views, they just want to recruit more people who think the same as them for no other reason than to build an army that does nothing. People should not aim to be an SJW, but rather to be someone with a clear head on their shoulders who fights for true equality, researches things from a logical point of view, questions their own theories, takes the bad with the good and works on challenging those who think otherwise.

Solid post, I agree with everything presented here. Your description of SJW's is fair and spot on!

[Gracious Gaga 17,163]

16 hours ago, SilkSpectre0 said:

I really can't believe the amount of people on gaga daily who hold transphobic, homophobic or misogynistic views. I can't believe there are people on gaga daily using 'SJW' as an insult. It used to only be asshole conservatives who thought the concept of social justice was a waste of time. Gaga wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the work of others in creating a more equal society that has inspired her and yet there's people here who don't see equality between men and women/eradicating transphobia and homophobia as important. Do you know who you Stan? 

 

16 hours ago, SilkSpectre0 said:

I'd say gender roles affect the whole of society so you're wrong there. It's actually a handful of people who are privileged enough to not be harmed by them so if that's you enjoy but please just leave the rest of us to talk about it. 

This and this.

Who would've thought lady gaga fans of all people would be so against such a relevant and important issue .  Through this thread I think I've learned that gaga daily is simply a shade throwing outlet for little monsters.  A way for one to feel better than another.  Very disappointed with the inconsistency of kindness throughout this fan base.  Isn't that what being a little monster should be about? Changing the world and making it a better place for all of us "freaks" (as lady gaga said on the monster ball tour) so we thus become just as normal and accepted in society as today's average supremacy

 

[Jigglygoth 2,432]

You are being overly dramatic IMO. 

And you're using the term "sexist" too lightly. I think that, partly, this kind of superficial complaints gave feminism a bad image to those who are not familiar with the movement and its history. 

It's ok for you to voice your opinion, always, but you should reconsider your judgment on this particular matter, and refrain from being overly sensitive when it comes to gender isdues. Not because you should be scared of being wrong (which in this case you are), but because you may stain a noble movement like feminism by being so passionate on your rather ignorant suggestions.

[Sister 9,907]

I personally do not like when people use these old and supposedly cute little nods to old stereo types and I always cringe as they always pull the slight and cutesy giggle about it, it's repulsive. I feel like our world should be well beyond these old fits of awful majority rules definitions, BUT I do know that the world is not as progressive and nonjudgmental as I am, so I allow this stuff to happen, when it's casual and with perfect strangers or just groups of passive people in small talk, but I do expect more of people that I spend time with or whom also usually appear to be beyond common and old fashioned rules and would be leaders of the correct and progressive new game of our future.

So, while it's disappointing, it is also not such a big deal and just appears a sudden display of ignorance, most times. I can't hold it against someone or I would have the whole world become a heavy and unnecessary blanket of disappointment. It does need to quit being a "go to" social communication act of invoking a giggle or cheap approval nod. It's disingenuous.

[Duella Dvil 10,183]

This mess is still commencing 

[SilkSpectre0 547]

You know this thread wouldn't have so many pages if people who just came to bash people for having a discussion on gender roles had just not commented. although in a way I'm glad as they've outed themselves as rather bigoted 

[SilkSpectre0 547]

@StrawberryBlond my main issue is with you and others giving people that label. Who are you to say what I fight for? I'm a grown adult who runs a feminist organisation, I march and protest and raise money. I start petitions. I'm an activist. And yet anyone who doesn't want said activism done tries to shut people up with this SJW label and I'm not falling for it. There is nothing I am doing and my generation is doing that isn't the same as activists in the past and yet people try to say 'oh people aren't activists they're just annoying SJW . Every time peopl try to point out inequality there are people who say they are nitpicking/overly sensitive because it's an easy way to shut someone down . SJW doesn't mean anything of what you said, that's just how you fe about people who are called SJWs. ...You go on to say people should be educating themselves about issues/ fighting to change them well big surprise for you...dialogue is often the first and a very important step!! So kindly just sit down if you aren't interested in entering a dialogue it's not difficult. 

[666 others 1,856]

48 minutes ago, SilkSpectre0 said:

@StrawberryBlond my main issue is with you and others giving people that label. Who are you to say what I fight for? I'm a grown adult who runs a feminist organisation, I march and protest and raise money. I start petitions. I'm an activist. And yet anyone who doesn't want said activism done tries to shut people up with this SJW label and I'm not falling for it. There is nothing I am doing and my generation is doing that isn't the same as activists in the past and yet people try to say 'oh people aren't activists they're just annoying SJW . Every time peopl try to point out inequality there are people who say they are nitpicking/overly sensitive because it's an easy way to shut someone down . SJW doesn't mean anything of what you said, that's just how you fe about people who are called SJWs. ...You go on to say people should be educating themselves about issues/ fighting to change them well big surprise for you...dialogue is often the first and a very important step!! So kindly just sit down if you aren't interested in entering a dialogue it's not difficult. 

This.

As far as I am aware, the term SJW getting a negative meaning has a murky history behind it. Game developer Zoë Quinn got positive reviews for her game "Depression Quest", which for some reason triggered a harassment campaign against her and other women game developers, including a series of rape and death threats. Those who came to the harassed women's defence were labelled as SJWs by the harassers so that their protest could be ridiculed and their motives could be questioned.

The rampant use of the term SJW as an insult on a GGD thread is saddening imo.

[Adakam 2]

Coming at Gaga for sexism because of 2 phrases is like coming at Mario Bros for videogame violence because you stump turtles.

I get your point and agree with what youre trying to say, but you seriously are focusing on the smallest form of sexism in the industry with the least sexist artist to ever exist.

I agree that you gotta start somewhere to change the world, but this is not the way, and youre giving these words more power than they actually have.

And I gotta say that getting upset at people who dont agree with you or saying that they dont have an argument because of their quick responses is wrong, you need to ask yourself why are they telling you that?

[Bye 3,947]

I am so over people getting offended by everything and wanting to rewrite our spoken language. Having balls is an expression (no matter if its origin is sexist in nature) and I will keep using it if I have to (all while ignoring the PC brigade).

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

12 hours ago, SilkSpectre0 said:

@StrawberryBlond my main issue is with you and others giving people that label. Who are you to say what I fight for? I'm a grown adult who runs a feminist organisation, I march and protest and raise money. I start petitions. I'm an activist. And yet anyone who doesn't want said activism done tries to shut people up with this SJW label and I'm not falling for it. There is nothing I am doing and my generation is doing that isn't the same as activists in the past and yet people try to say 'oh people aren't activists they're just annoying SJW . Every time peopl try to point out inequality there are people who say they are nitpicking/overly sensitive because it's an easy way to shut someone down . SJW doesn't mean anything of what you said, that's just how you fe about people who are called SJWs. ...You go on to say people should be educating themselves about issues/ fighting to change them well big surprise for you...dialogue is often the first and a very important step!! So kindly just sit down if you aren't interested in entering a dialogue it's not difficult. 

I don't know you well enough to speculate what you are and what you are not, but as long as you are honestly fighting for change and not over-analysing then I won't view you as an SJW. I don't like it when any social cause gets labelled as whiny SJW's every time because some of these causes are genuinely sound. But when I see, for example, campaigns about nonsense like "Ban Bossy," that's when they deserve to be labelled as SJW. Over-analysing, nonsense, over-sensitivity, failure to notice the stuff that actually is worth fighting for. Fighting for social justice is one thing, inventing issues that don't exist and treating everyone else like ignorant fools is quite another. I'm perfectly fine to enter a dialogue...provided it isn't invaded by people who just want to hear their way of thinking and not think outside the box (ironically, what they think they're doing). One of the things SJW's do is attempt to shut down anyone who doesn't like their way of thinking and be utterly hostile, even when no one is attacking them. You can't have a calm, dignified, logical, forward-thinking discussion about social issues when there's SJWs around.