BLM stall Toronto Pride for 30 minutes

[DeanWinchester 41,390]

1 minute ago, Bebe said:

 Okay, I mean I don't think it would hurt to hear the story from multiple outlets but you do you. 
You haven't really even attempted to counter any of my points though, so I don't suppose that this conversation is going anywhere.

I just expounded my previous post

[Bebe 17,289]

27 minutes ago, A Gaga Lad said:

@Bebe i'll take my sources directly from local news, thank you. They're set to tackle more of the issue today.

BLM being part of LGBTQ must be celebrated but LGBTQ police need to shun part of their identity and profession isn't, somehow that's okay?

Why not offer solutions to bridge the gap and answer the problem instead of excluding and pushing the institution in question? Maybe don't act like bigger victims in an event that covers more than just black LGBTQ? Not saying they face no problems and let me make it clear, I'm all for equality but the way BLM approaches these things are tasteless and also tend to forget they are not the ONLY minority

LGBTQ police don't need to shun part of their identity and profession. As pointed out in one of the articles you refuse to read:

"Const. Chuck Krangle, a gay cop, wrote an open-letter to Pride organizers about BLM's demands.

His hurt feelings are legitimate, of course, though he also noted "I do not speak for the police, and I do not speak for the LGBTQ community. I speak as an individual, one who saw his first Pride, only to be excluded from the next." Nobody said he couldn't come next year as an individual, the demand was about uniformed cops on official floats.

He also did not in any way discuss why BLM may be opposed to police floats or reforms that might improve community relations, and even made a point of saying "I have never been made to feel discriminated against."

That's great for him, but he also admits the struggles of people before him made that possible. What he does not admit is that other people who aren't white gay men may not be so fortunate when it comes to avoiding discrimination.

The most notable thing to me, just a straight, white ally, about the BLM backlash is the lack of concern for more marginalized members of the community. It can obviously be tough being a white gay man and even tougher being a white lesbian but what about queer and trans minorities who are facing a host of intersecting prejudices, even from their Pride compatriots?"

 

It's not about BLM being celebrated over other LGBT people, it's about giving a voice to the LGBTQ members of colour. Where do you want these people to go? They are talking about the treatment of LGBT people, they just so happen to be POC as well. You say this event "covers more than just black LGBTQ" but frankly right now it hardly includes them. What about their issues? Are they not a part of our community?

As of now POC LGBTQ members consist of the most vulnerable of our community. Their issues matter and if we are an inclusive community we should be fighting for them as well. As the BLM Toronto co-founder said: ""We are not taking any space away from any folks. When we talk about homophobia, transphobia, we go through that too... It should be a cohesive unit, not one against the other. Anti-blackness needs to be addressed and they can be addressed at the same time, in the same spaces."

As of now, when we let in official police floats, we are essentially endorsing them. We are saying that they are LGBTQ friendly. The reality is that our most vulnerable LGBTQ members don't feel the same way, they still face harassment and discrimination at the hands of cops.  It's not some form of discrimination to disallow an organisation that actively fights against members of our community from marching in OUR pride parade. Pride Parades have always been about protest and until the rights of our most vulnerable members are secured and until the police stop targeting members of our community we should continue to protest. 

The fact that you're more concerned with the right for the police to have an official float than the right for our trans community to walk down the street without being harassed, assaulted or arrested for trivial matters speaks volumes. They are a part of our community and we should be united behind them protesting the police treatment of our LGBT members.

Pride is OUR space. Police officers don’t signal safety for many black queer and trans people. Police are a group of people who have brought so much trauma and so much violence to our community. POC LGBTQ members deserve a space where they feel safe, that space should be pride. Until the police reform their policies and stop targeting our members they shouldn't be represented at pride. LGBTQ police officers are absolutely welcome to come along and celebrate pride, but an organisation that still harrasses and targets LGBTQ people is not welcome.

[Melech 9,900]

8 hours ago, Bebe said:

What I posted wasn't even an endorsement of it's contents

It was a historical document, that I got from a news site discussing ACT UP as a gay rights movement, that represented the sort of documents that these AIDS activists used at the time. As I mentioned these posters were at times extreme and confronting.

So you agree BLM can Be inappropriate 

[DeanWinchester 41,390]

3 minutes ago, Bebe said:

LGBTQ police don't need to shun part of their identity and profession. As pointed out in one of the articles you refuse to read:

"Const. Chuck Krangle, a gay cop, wrote an open-letter to Pride organizers about BLM's demands.

His hurt feelings are legitimate, of course, though he also noted "I do not speak for the police, and I do not speak for the LGBTQ community. I speak as an individual, one who saw his first Pride, only to be excluded from the next." Nobody said he couldn't come next year as an individual, the demand was about uniformed cops on official floats.

It's not about BLM being celebrated over other LGBT people, it's about giving a voice to the LGBTQ members of colour a voice. Where do you want these people to go? They are talking about the treatment of LGBT people, they just so happen to be POC as well. You say this event "covers more than just black LGBTQ" but frankly right now it hardly includes them. What about their issues? Are they not a part of our community?

You raise several good points. You really do.

But the exclusion really contradicts the philosophy of inclusion, and forcing LGBTQ police not to put their uniforms on is still forcing them to not be proud of their entire identity.

And again, I get that they are POC+LGBTQ and thus are part of the community but when they asked around in Toronto, many (non-whites, non-blacks) responded that they feel the police shouldn't be excluded and that is stepping over the LGBTQ who happened to be police, and the black LGBTQ shouldn't answer for everyone in the community, which is a good point. Just because you're a member doesn't mean only you have problems, or that you take priority or that you get to speak for everybody else. It just seems to me (and bothers me) that these days when someone says "person of color" it almost always has to equate to being black. Take the oscars for example: the black community had every right to be angry, but aren't they forgetting the asians, the hispanics, the native americans? Don't those minorities have even less opportunity/exposure? Are other minorities complaining about sports that are dominated by blacks?

Anyway, I've been repeating myself now. I'd rather see how this one develops and see if either sides have more to offer.

[Bebe 17,289]

24 minutes ago, Simon said:

So you agree BLM can Be inappropriate 

I'd say that BLM can be extreme, loud and belligerent like all other civil rights groups. That doesn't make their message wrong and it doesn't make it okay to dismiss them or every protest. These groups rise out of a sense of injustice, hopelessness and anger. BLM are angry that their young black men are dying on the streets. Such movements are not going to be polite, courteous and mindful of your sensibilities and it's almost unreasonable to expect them to be.

I don't think they crossed a line at all in this instance, but if a small group or individual does inevitably cross a line at some point then it would be wrong to paint the movement in that one shade. The gay rights movement had their belligerent, extreme and, clearly, offensive moments due to the massive anger of people dying - but I'm sure we'd all agree that we are thankful for their efforts and that it would be unfair to paint the gay rights movement as extreme or 'inappropriate'. BLM are also angry people are dying, that expression of anger isn't always going to be pretty - sometimes it will be confrontational and sometimes it will be ugly.

Like I said, I didn't like when that girl identifying with BLM hijacked the Orlando Vigil to make things about her. I thought that was inappropriate, but I also think it would be inappropriate to call BLM bullies, thugs or despicable as a result of such an incident. 

[SKANK 14,288]

Firework display, time to protest Obama's drone policy.

Hot dog eating competition, time to protest factory farming.

See someone in a stripped shirt, time to protest for-profit mass incarceration and capital punishment.

Have to pee at Target, mine as well protest discriminatory trans bathroom legislation.

See someone with Greek letters on their shirt, time to protest rape on college campuses.

Go on a beer run, stop to protest in the name of legalization of recreational drugs.

See two kids playing with super soakers, demand their parents support rational gun control legislation.

See someone with a broken arm, break their other arm as protest for Universal Health Care.

Park in a Taco Bell drive thru as an immigration reform protest.

I'm so weary of it all.

[Bebe 17,289]

5 minutes ago, A Gaga Lad said:

You raise several good points. You really do.

But the exclusion really contradicts the philosophy of inclusion, and forcing LGBTQ police not to put their uniforms on is still forcing them to not be proud of their entire identity.

And again, I get that they are POC+LGBTQ and thus are part of the community but when they asked around in Toronto, many (non-whites, non-blacks) responded that they feel the police shouldn't be excluded and that is stepping over the LGBTQ who happened to be police, and the black LGBTQ shouldn't answer for everyone in the community, which is a good point. Just because you're a member doesn't mean only you have problems, or that you take priority or that you get to speak for everybody else. It just seems to me (and bothers me) that these days when someone says "person of color" it almost always has to equate to being black. Take the oscars for example: the black community had every right to be angry, but aren't they forgetting the asians, the hispanics, the native americans? Don't those minorities have even less opportunity/exposure? Are other minorities complaining about sports that are dominated by blacks?

Anyway, I've been repeating myself now. I'd rather see how this one develops and see if either sides have more to offer.

It's really not an exclusion though... These LGBTQ police can absolutely express the fact that they are gay and policeman in next year's pride parade and it would be wonderful to see them do that! What wouldn't be nice to see though, is an officially recognised  and therefore endorsed police float.

The survey where respondents feel the police shouldn't be 'excluded' doesn't mean anything. These people can be wrong and imo they are absolutely wrong and ignorant.

Again, nobody is saying  that their issues take priority, people are just saying "pay attention to our issues as members of this community! Don't just ignore our issues!".

This isn't the Police Pride Parade. Pride is OUR space and POC LGBTQ members are included in that space. Police officers don’t signal safety for many black queer and trans people. Police are a group of people who have brought so much trauma and so much violence to our community. POC LGBTQ members deserve a space where they feel safe, that space should be pride. Until the police reform their policies and stop targeting our members they shouldn't be officially represented at pride. LGBTQ police officers are absolutely welcome to come along and celebrate pride, but an organisation that still harrasses and targets LGBTQ people is not welcome.

As this is an LGBT pride event, LGBTQ police officers or any police officers that wish to join the event are more than welcome! They can all wear shirts that read: "Gay Police Officer!" or something cute like that. For Toronto Pride to endorse the police organisation themselves though when they still unfairly harass and target members of our community is a different story though.

[Melech 9,900]

18 minutes ago, Bebe said:

I'd say that BLM can be extreme, loud and belligerent like all other civil rights groups. That doesn't make their message wrong and it doesn't make it okay to dismiss them or every protest. These groups rise out of a sense of injustice, hopelessness and anger. BLM are angry that their young black men are dying on the streets. Such movements are not going to be polite, courteous and mindful of your sensibilities and it's almost unreasonable to expect them to be.

I don't think they crossed a line at all in this instance, but if a small group or individual does inevitably cross a line at some point then it would be wrong to paint the movement in that one shade. The gay rights movement had their belligerent, extreme and, clearly, offensive moments due to the massive anger of people dying - but I'm sure we'd all agree that we are thankful for their efforts and that it would be unfair to paint the gay rights movement as extreme or 'inappropriate'. BLM are also angry people are dying, that expression of anger isn't always going to be pretty - sometimes it will be confrontational and sometimes it will be ugly.

Like I said, I didn't like when that girl identifying with BLM hijacked the Orlando Vigil to make things about her. I thought that was inappropriate, but I also think it would be inappropriate to call BLM bullies, thugs or despicable as a result of such an incident. 

I'm suspicious of them, simply from their anti Semitic remarks now and then. And being angry doesn't excuse being discriminatory to other groups. 

Thkigh no one said their message for equality is wrong.

[Bebe 17,289]

Just now, Simon said:

I'm suspicious of them, simply from their anti Semitic remarks now and then. And being angry doesn't excuse being discriminatory to other groups. 

Thkigh no one said their message for equality is wrong.

I haven't heard of BLM being anti-semetic tbh. That's a new one I haven't heard of. 

[Alcina Dimitrescu 1,157]

I told you the bitchfit they threw at "All Life Matter" comment was just the beggining. Eddie was right, like always.

[REALITY 80,166]

9 hours ago, MJHolland said:

I'm 100% serious. How the **** is this racial profiling? There are plenty of white people and other races apart of BLM, unfortunately. And second of all, you don't know my race. 

Black Lives Matter is a thug movement. They have done nothing this month other than hijack vigil after vigil for the Orlando victims, to hijacking gay pride events in the US and Canada just to prompt their agenda that has only heightened racial tension. Black Lives Matter is the scum of the Earth. 

The only other group with the audacity to hijack the Orlando shooting victims vigil/funeral was the West Boroh Baptist Church. BLM activists can rot in hell right next to them for all I care. 

Racial Profiling - [noun] The use of race or ethnicity as grounds for suspecting someone of having committed an offense.

Calling them a "thug movement" and calling every one of their member a "degenerate thug" because the majority of them are black is racial profiling. You're saying that they do nothing but criminal or criminal-like activities because why else would you complain about them?

Would you use the alternative and say "All Lives Matter"? Legitimate question, because saying "All Lives Matter" is a PC way of saying "You're lives matter, whatever, but what about our lives?!". Black Lives Matter does not mean that only Black lives matter, but White lives, Asian lives, Hispanic lives, etc. etc. 

Again, I'm not condoning what they did, it wasn't right, and some members do do extreme things like hijacking vigils and pride events, but they're philosophy is in the right place, would you be saying the same thing if gay people/gay rights activists did the same? Would you be calling them "degenerate thugs", the "scum of the Earth"??

[Melech 9,900]

15 minutes ago, Bebe said:

I haven't heard of BLM being anti-semetic tbh. That's a new one I haven't heard of. 

http://forward.com/opinion/326278/why-campus-blacklivesmatter-protests-are-bad-for-the-jews/

http://www.seattlemet.com/articles/2015/8/26/fizzaug2615

Not to mention their anti-Zionism 

 

[Bebe 17,289]

2 minutes ago, Simon said:

http://forward.com/opinion/326278/why-campus-blacklivesmatter-protests-are-bad-for-the-jews/

http://www.seattlemet.com/articles/2015/8/26/fizzaug2615

 

 

The campus article seems to be about how these protests are bad because of university administrators being insensitive to Jewish students because they are overwhelmed by the protestors and don't have time for them. 
The campus administrators should absolutely make time to hear and act upon any concerns from Jewish students, but it's not the fault of BML protestors for simply protesting.

The second article seems to be an isolated case if I'm honest. 

I'm sure there are absolutely problems with intersectionality that need to be addressed. Anti-semitism in any movement should not be tolerated. I just think you could find the same traces of racism, anti-semitism, sexism within the LGBTQ community too. I think there are a lots of problems with intersectionality that affects all movements - not just exclusively BLM. You see it also with 'white feminism'. 

[DemeLarell 931]

I don't really support or agree with their actions BUT what do you expect when another minority group gets more attention from the media and the government than the other. So in order to be heard they have two options at this point.

1. Merge with the LGBT community and create an even louder statement. (which would be my first option)

Or

2. Hijack the attention the LGBT community is receiving which is what they chose. 

As humans we tend to divide when we are wounded. BLM is just as wounded as the LGBT community and they are so angry that everyone didn't give their issues as much attention as the LGBTs issues. 

I am black but I'm not associated with the BLM movement. I like boys but i wouldn't say i am a part of the LGBT community. I don't want to be put into a box because doing so creates division which breeds prejudice mentalities. 

[TiphEret 1,320]

9 hours ago, Simon said:

Ew that hitler-bush comparison is not only disgusting but also highly anti Semitic. Ew ew ew ew ew. Shocked a mod posting it. It's really inappropriate.

How is it anti semitic?