AquaFire Witch 160 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I can't believe people support the Black Lives Matter movement. All they do is intimidate, bully, blow whistles in people's face, curse, spit, yell, censor freedom of speech and scream death to police. They won't be remembered for anything positive. All Lives Matter, because nobody ever said Black Lives Don't Matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 17,289 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 16 minutes ago, Simon said: Ew that hitler-bush comparison is not only disgusting but also highly anti Semitic. Ew ew ew ew ew. Shocked a mod posting it. It's really inappropriate. What I posted wasn't even an endorsement of it's contents It was a historical document, that I got from a news site discussing ACT UP as a gay rights movement, that represented the sort of documents that these AIDS activists used at the time. As I mentioned these posters were at times extreme and confronting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 17,289 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 45 minutes ago, AJH219 said: And tbh, I was 100% onboard with her demands about adding more people of color into the Toronto Pride event planning (or whatever). But then they have to go and throw a goddamn hissy and demand that NO policemen be allowed back into the event? What in the literal fck? Look,I get police brutality is a thing. But come on, driving a nail between the two groups doesn't solve anything. Alas, these people don't want change. I am so over this all cops deserve to be punished because of the actions of a few. They're judging an entire subset of people just like they themselves are judged. That doesn't sit right with me. Until they change their tactics, they will continue to garner ZERO respect from me. The gay community wouldn't have allowed police floats in pride parades while sodomy was still illegal and when gay people of all colours and genders were being attacked and profiled by the police. For many LGBT people, especially those of colour, the police brutality 'thing' is a major issue. Black trans women especially are still profiled and arrested at higher numbers. Black trans women are also the most likely to be pushed into sex work (44% more likely) due to a complete lack of employment opportunities as well as other issues. These women probably don't feel safe calling the police if they have been raped or sexually assaulted because they are not going to be believed or in some cases might be arrested for sex work. Cops are not being 'punished' because they are not allowed in a pride parade. Toronto Pride is now simply saying "There are members of our community that are still, statistically, unfairly profiled and often times violently mistreated by the police. Until this is solved, we can't welcome you into our pride parades to celebrate with us". These pride parades began as protests for the rights of LGBT people, there are still members of our community that we need to fight and protest for. http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/which-blacklivesmatter-the-killings-no-ones-talking-about https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/hes-not-done-killing-her-why-so-many-trans-women-were-murdered-in-2015 I don't think it's a bad thing to pay attention to the most afflicted in our community, I don't think it's a bad thing to protest against the police on behalf of the members of our community still suffering at the hands of police brutality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanWinchester 41,390 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 3 hours ago, Bebe said: http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/which-blacklivesmatter-the-killings-no-ones-talking-about https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/hes-not-done-killing-her-why-so-many-trans-women-were-murdered-in-2015 These stats aren't Toronto/Canadian stats. I get that black people are still marginalized, but the US has far more severe crap than what we have here. It's not exactly an honest thing to project US police brutality over Canadian police. Flyin' like a 1000 Doves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 17,289 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 30 minutes ago, A Gaga Lad said: These stats aren't Toronto/Canadian stats. I get that black people are still marginalized, but the US has far more severe crap than what we have here. It's not exactly an honest thing to project US police brutality over Canadian police. Yes, that's fair it is U.S statistics, but I think you would be naive to think that black trans women don't find themselves in similar positions in Canada. In fact similar treatment and similar discrimination has been reported in Canada. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/sumaya-ysl-death-toronto-police-investigate-death-of-young-somali-trans-woman-in-canada-10069335.html "Canada not only fails to protect trans women, but it's polices harm trans women. Canada still locks up trans women with men in federal prisons. Ontario only stopped incarcerating trans women with men this year and it's a problem in all provinces and territories. Trans women who largely go to prisons because of survival crimes like sex work and petty theft. Who are trying to survive in a country where 50 per cent of trans womenlive off of less than $15 000 a year. Where women's shelters in many places across Canada can legally outright deny trans women help, and do. Where women's shelters will deny help to trans women unless they can prove they have had genital surgery. Canada is country where 43 per cent of trans women will attempt suicide. " http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/sophia-banks/trans-women-canada_b_8183692.html http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/trans-women-of-color-face-an-epidemic-of-violence-and-murder-673 1/4 chance you will be harassed by police officers if you are trans in Ontario http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/10/18/transgender-issues-canada-election_n_8323144.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartySick 172,545 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 4 hours ago, Bebe said: They are just asking for better representation in leadership roles (and other roles) of Black trans women, black queer people and indigenous folk. I don't think it's a bad thing that these QUEER black activists are demanding more visibility and tolerance within the LGBTQ community. The call for the police to be excluded was ridiculous (because you can't preach tolerance and exclusion at the same time) but I'm here for their issues to be recognized as well. Pride is for everyone Whimsical bitch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 17,289 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 1 minute ago, PartySick said: The call for the police to be excluded was ridiculous (because you can't preach tolerance and exclusion at the same time) but I'm here for their issues to be recognized as well. Pride is for everyone I'm not so against the exclusion of the police as a form of protest though tbh. These pride marches started as a protest against discrimination and police brutality and as long as there are members of the LGBT community who are facing discrimination, violence and mass incarceration at the hands of the police I think it's fair to say "You can't march alongside us as if you are supportive when you fail to protect members of our community and continue to profile and incarcerate them at high rates". It's not an attack on all individual police workers, it's a critique of the heteronormative structures in place within the police force and justice system that still systematically targets trans women of colour more than any other group. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJHolland 12,725 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 6 hours ago, Bebe said: Please be more respectful when discussing this. It's clearly a sensitive issue and the last thing we need in this thread is people calling others "mental" or sarcastically calling people "genius". Once BLM and their supporters stop hijacking funerals for murdered gay men and women, I'll give them an ounce of respect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJHolland 12,725 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Bebe said: I'm not so against the exclusion of the police as a form of protest though tbh. These pride marches started as a protest against discrimination and police brutality and as long as there are members of the LGBT community who are facing discrimination, violence and mass incarceration at the hands of the police I think it's fair to say "You can't march alongside us as if you are supportive when you fail to protect members of our community and continue to profile and incarcerate them at high rates". It's not an attack on all individual police workers, it's a critique of the heteronormative structures in place within the police force and justice system that still systematically targets trans women of colour more than any other group. You're right, it has nothing to do with self responsibility and the fact that gay people actually commit crimes at a higher rate than straight people. It's the fault of heteronormative cops. Good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 17,289 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Just now, MJHolland said: Once BLM and their supporters stop hijacking funerals for murdered gay men and women, I'll give them an ounce of respect. This isn't about respecting BLM or their supporters this is about respecting other people in this forum and refraining from personally insulting people on this forum when talking about sensitive issues. On the topic of BLM though, you did this exact thing in the other thread too In the thread "Black Lives Matter Crash LGBT Event In Toronto". Firstly, nobody associated with BLM has hijacked a funeral. You must be talking about the interrupted vigil. Instead of explaining what's so disgusting and thuggish about BLM protesting for more inclusion and leadership roles for black queer and LGBT people within Toronto pride, as they are doing here, you bring it back to the one woman who interrupted a vigil. Like... I felt uncomfortable when that woman interrupted the vigil. She made it about her in a space where it shouldn't have been about her. But you can't keep using that one example in an attempt to delegitimize an entire movement and every protest they have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 17,289 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 20 minutes ago, MJHolland said: You're right, it has nothing to do with self responsibility and the fact that gay people actually commit crimes at a higher rate than straight people. It's the fault of heteronormative cops. Good. How bizarre is it that minority groups just happen to all be scummy thugs? If only these gross minority LGBTQ POC could act like more the nice straight white men.... I worry about those nice, white Christian boys - they watch the television and might end up getting corrupted by these awful, violent and scary minorities! They are all criminals! Everything is all their fault! 1/4 of all trans women in Ontario have reported being harassed by police officers. There are places in New York where trans women are searched and arrested by cops for having CONDOMS in their purse because they take that as evidence they are sex workers. Trans women aren't facing more violence, sexual assault and police discrimination because they lack self responsibility.... Transphobia is real... And the problems with the discrimination of LGBTQ people of colour are systematic. Trans women of colour face the most amounts of violence, sexual assault and workplace discrimination. They face more harassment from police, they are more heavily penalised within the justice system..... That's not something these people are choosing... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanWinchester 41,390 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 2 hours ago, Bebe said: Yes, that's fair it is U.S statistics, but I think you would be naive to think that black trans women don't find themselves in similar positions in Canada. In fact similar treatment and similar discrimination has been reported in Canada. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/sumaya-ysl-death-toronto-police-investigate-death-of-young-somali-trans-woman-in-canada-10069335.html "Canada not only fails to protect trans women, but it's polices harm trans women. Canada still locks up trans women with men in federal prisons. Ontario only stopped incarcerating trans women with men this year and it's a problem in all provinces and territories. Trans women who largely go to prisons because of survival crimes like sex work and petty theft. Who are trying to survive in a country where 50 per cent of trans womenlive off of less than $15 000 a year. Where women's shelters in many places across Canada can legally outright deny trans women help, and do. Where women's shelters will deny help to trans women unless they can prove they have had genital surgery. Canada is country where 43 per cent of trans women will attempt suicide. " http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/sophia-banks/trans-women-canada_b_8183692.html http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/trans-women-of-color-face-an-epidemic-of-violence-and-murder-673 1/4 chance you will be harassed by police officers if you are trans in Ontario http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/10/18/transgender-issues-canada-election_n_8323144.html I'll just cosign what @PartySick said. 2 hours ago, PartySick said: The call for the police to be excluded was ridiculous (because you can't preach tolerance and exclusion at the same time) but I'm here for their issues to be recognized as well. Pride is for everyone CP24 has interviewed and quoted LGBTQ police specifically, and they find it heartbreaking that they could not join the parade next year (one of the officers interviewed happened to have this year as the first attended). 2 hours ago, Bebe said: I think it's fair to say "You can't march alongside us as if you are supportive when you fail to protect members of our community and continue to profile and incarcerate them at high rates". Perhaps consider those officers are also under discrimination and severe pressure not to interfere? Don't Ask Don't Tell ring a bell? Flyin' like a 1000 Doves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 17,289 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 26 minutes ago, A Gaga Lad said: Perhaps consider those officers are also under discrimination and severe pressure not to interfere? Don't Ask Don't Tell ring a bell? Firstly, I don't even understand at all what point you are trying to make. Secondly, nobody is stopping or trying to stop LGBTQ police officers from joining the pride celebrations. The goal is to stop the uniformed and OFFICIAL police floats. The statement is against the police force as an organisation that still enforces laws targeted at the most vulnerable in our community - it's not against any specific police officer LGBT or otherwise. The pride parades started as a protest, they were born out of a protest from the treatment of the police against our community. Today there is still clearly a need to protest and I think it's fair to say "We can't endorse the police organisation as pro LGBTQ while there are still systematic problems within the police organisation that unfairly target our community". It's a statement saying "We can't accept your organisation into our pride celebrations while you continue to target members of our community". Not only is that completely fair but it represents exactly what these pride parades were created for. LGBT and police relations have come a long way, but the experience that white LGBT folk have is far different from the experience our POC peers face. Lets not leave them behind... I recommend reading these articles: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/joshua-ostroff/toronto-pride-black-lives-matter_b_10801712.html http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/07/03/black-lives-matter-toronto-pride-parade-changes_n_10798402.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanWinchester 41,390 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 @Bebe i'll take my sources directly from local news, thank you. They're set to tackle more of the issue today. BLM being part of LGBTQ must be celebrated but LGBTQ police need to shun part of their identity and profession, somehow that's okay? Why not offer solutions to bridge the gap and answer the problem instead of excluding and pushing the institution in question? Maybe don't act like bigger victims in an event that covers more than just black LGBTQ? Not saying they face no problems and let me make it clear, I'm all for equality but the way BLM approaches these things are tasteless and also tend to forget they are not the ONLY minority Flyin' like a 1000 Doves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 17,289 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Just now, A Gaga Lad said: @Bebe i'll take my sources directly from local news, thank you. They're set to tackle more of the issue today. Okay, I mean I don't think it would hurt to hear the story from multiple outlets but you do you. You haven't really even attempted to counter any of my points though, so I don't suppose that this conversation is going anywhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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