Why do people ignore Madonna's ephebophilic character?

[petty 9,412]

30 minutes ago, Kayla said:

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When I first clicked the link I thought you had quoted me and was saying I personally called her a pedophile  Then I saw the tag and who you really quoted  

"mostly hate fueled personal accusations and attacks towards M."

Are you sure?

65 Members have posted in this thread. 
~15 have commented in a neither pro- nor anti-Madonna way, or responded in a way not directly related to the OP.
~ 23 have commented in a way that indicates negative response towards Madonna. 
~ 37 have posted in defense and favor of Madonna. 

So actually, the thread is mostly defending Madonna against the less-common examples of accusations. 

[Bellatrix 34,639]

2 minutes ago, thotiana said:

she doesn't confirm he was legal! stop being dense

She doesn't confirm he wasn't legal either so stop judging her on loose grounds.

As it is fiction it doesn't really matter either. No one has done anything wrong. Non-authors kan write fake stories too. I have written several of them and if they reflected myself I would probably have been convicted

[petty 9,412]

1 minute ago, Bellatrix said:

She doesn't confirm he wasn't legal either so stop judging her on loose grounds.

As it is fiction it doesn't really matter either. No one has done anything wrong. Non-authors kan write fake stories too. I have written several of them and if they reflected myself I would probably have been convicted

i feel like we're going in circles here so

 

bye

[Bellatrix 34,639]

Just now, thotiana said:

i feel like we're going in circles here so

 

bye

Yeah, we do when you never try to understand. Bye darlin'

[StrawberryBlond 13,751]

2 hours ago, Kayla said:

Also on this route, it implies that boys are fine to make their own sexual choices at a teen age but girls are not. It's clear that the story does not describe rape or taking advantage of another person, but it still does seem inappropriate based on current societal sex standards as they relate to the age of the people involved.

People are missing the fact that, as a writer, Madonna intentionally incorporated imagery to really send home the message that he was a young teen.
Like mentioning he didn't have pubic hair- if people think she meant he was "shaved" they need to pay attention in a literature class.
Y'all should know damn well what she meant by that line; she meant he young enough that the pubic hair hadn't come in. 

However, it is important too to remember that the writings in the sex book were meant to represent a character. Hell, didn't Nirvana make a song sung from the perspective of a rapist? That doesn't mean Kurt Cobain was molesting people; it's creating a character. And characters don't always have to make choices or have fantasies that are appropriate. 

Also important to remember that here we are criticizing Madonna for writing fiction when many male artists actually acted on these things and didn't get too much **** for it.  

Yes, I view it as abuse no matter what gender it happens to. It's sad that society has socialised boys into thinking that if they are seduced by an older woman, it's hot, it's a thrill and there is no way that they would dislike it. I find that very creepy and sad. Yet, when it's a girl, we're socialised into thinking that being seduced by an older man is wrong, abusive, heartbreaking and that there is no way we could like it. It's like...make up your mind society! Stop with the double standards! Decide one way or the other, but stop thinking gender makes a difference. As long as society looks at the case of a girl differently, their justification for a boy going through the same thing doesn't mean anything.

And thank you so much for saying that she left his age out as a deliberate artistic choice. Writers make choices for very specific reasons. While not qualified in literature, one thing I have always heard from literature students, the literary educated and professional authors is that it is very important for the writer to always explain and answer any questions the reader has within the writing. Some things are ok to be left ambiguous, others are not. And certainly, when writing a sexual story involving a young person, their age is not something that should be up for debate and interpretation. Either explicitly state their age or say "he was about..." followed by the age. But flat-out not putting the age or any estimation of the age, instead suggesting the age with the use of eyebrow-raising descriptions that bring to mind an image of a pubescent/pre-pubescent boy...that is problematic. And it would not be seen as harmless if it was written about a girl. Seriously, the mention of no pubic hair on a young person of school age should never bring to mind the idea of "maybe they shave?" to any law-abiding adult's mind. Madonna's a smart woman - she wanted a reaction out of people with a controversial turn of phrase, so she did it. She did not want a reasonable, rational explanation to leap into our minds when she read that.

But regardless, I want to make it clear that I never accused her of actually doing these things or seriously wanting to do these things in reality. And I'm relieved that it was clarified as a pure work of fiction. I guess as long as a fantasy remains a fantasy, it's fine. But so saying, I would be none too pleased if I got a partner who confessed to me that one of his biggest fantasies was taking an inexperienced, young girl's virginity in a 'taking advantage' kinda way or that he had fantasies about barely legal girls. That kind of thing just puts me right on edge. So, why do we accept it from women but not from men? That's the question that I really want answered from all of this.

1 hour ago, Snow said:

@StrawberryBlond wtf?! How dare you? So now noone without a literary degree can write fiction with fictious character? Are you high? Thats The most moronic and ridicilous thing you have yet uttered in your bs essays. Jesus! Are you now the authority who decided what is actual literature and who is allowed to be a author and who gets to write fiction. Get off your high horse! 

Do you have any clue how many of The greatest authors of all time have no education in said Profession? 

This is no different from saying Jr Martin is pedophile or Rowling is a Wizard and Gaga a pervert murderer. Cant you get through your head that authors aren't The same as their fictious character in fiction!! 

Besides Madonna has said personally multiple times this is NOT what she personally believe. So what heck are you making assumptions that shes only writing her own fantasies or something or that she isn't capable to invent fiction. Thats your own uneducated and biaded bs.

Now go make a thread about Martin and Rowling for murdering innocent children and pedophilia or any hundred writer that has ever written about The subject.

You'rso arrogant!

No, I said non-professional writers with no literary qualifications must have their work looked at a bit differently. Critics look at it differently, the public looks at it differently. After all, celebrities turn their hand to anything now, even if they don't have the qualifications for it. They make perfumes, fashion lines, apps and even write books. But it's not their full-time job, it's just a little hobby to make some extra money and extend their brand. That's different to someone who has got the qualifications for and has worked really hard for these professions. Therefore, the amount of intention and talent a celebrity could put into a book is questionable. I've certainly seen fanfic erotica written by virginal teenagers that was better than what that excerpt showed.

Yes, I gather that some authors had no education at all but the point is, they clearly had a talent for novel writing and it was clearly the path for them. Celebrities, like most of us, will not have that talent for novel-writing, however, especially if they're not educated in how to do it right. Reading something by a professional author is totally different from reading an amateur writer's work who doesn't do this job full time.

No, a writer isn't the same as their fictitious creation but when it comes to writing sex scenes, a lot of what's written stems from the writer's personal taste. That's why, if we see an inappropriate sex scene in a movie, a lot of us say: "What kind of sick mind does that director have?" How we write sex scenes is a projection of our personal turn ons, so how you write them is relevant to your true feelings. Madonna wrote that fantasy because it was her fantasy, not the fantasy of a fictitious character. She partly wrote the book to fulfill her own fantasies, right? It's an output of what's in her head and she's using the name Dita as a pen name of sorts, even though we know it's her. She says this isn't what she believes (meaning, this isn't what she'd do in real life) but it's clear that this is what you imagines in her wildest fantasies. If it didn't turn her on, she wouldn't have written it. I've written plenty of sexual stuff myself. I've been planning to compose my own book of sexual fantasies of some time now. But it will only contain my fantasies and mine alone, not things that other people might like. And I will clearly state people's ages, leaving it in no doubt. Even though 16 is the legal age in my country, I'd rather every character was at least 18, as that's an age where you can do a lot more things, as well as sex and it's also an age where I view people as being more emotionally ready for sex and there's no sense of "barely legal" anymore.

As I said before, I treat professional authors differently. I even own Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita and I think the 1997 film adaption was very good, although difficult to watch and you feel a bit guilty for appreciating it.

45 minutes ago, Psychedelic said:

I respect your views, but as you can see many people in here disagree with them. You should really attempt to understand once and for all that this is not the type of place where people will be happy with those views you have on how people even should dress, act and behave. Expressing them every now and them wouldn't be such an issue, this is a discussion forum at the end of the day but your constant backlash has become an anoying thing to many.

I know you're always respectful in the way you conduct your opinions, but when you have people in a forum who love dressing wild, acting crazy at clubs and doing all those thing you condemn. Guess what? Your opinions become disrespectful to some. Because you're frequently judging a way of living many of us share.

I knew you could notice I was referring to you but I din not quote you because I know that making you understand this above, will be like reading poems to a horse.

Well, you don't seem to respect my views, seeing how you bashed them so horribly. You didn't engage intellectually, it was all: "Your opinion doesn't match mine, so it sucks." And no, sorry, I am under no obligation to censor my views just because some people in this community might not like them. Some liberal you are - don't air your views in the company of people who might not like them. As a liberal myself, I think controversial opinions should be up for representation anywhere. Aren't liberals supposed to be against censorship? You can't pick and choose when it applies to you. Notice how I've never told anyone that they don't have a write to state their opinion, no matter how much I disagree with it? So, what gives you the right to say that to me? Maybe you could extend me the same courtesy. And really, you cite my views as a "backlash?" No, it's having an opinion, just like you.

If you think I'm so respectful in my opinions, then you should be replying respectfully. I gather that my opinions could be controversial to some, but disrespectful? Come on. If you live a certain life that's not appreciated by everyone, you should expect some criticism for it. That's life. And you just said I put them down respectfully, so how are they disrespectful? Understand that I say a lot of what I do to help people, make them question things, realise their rights, make them strong within themselves. If there's a way of life that I deem to be harmful or problematic, I feel the need to say something about it as a compassionate person.

And there you go, insulting my intelligence by comparing me to a horse. Believe it or not, it's possible to understand what someone's saying but still disagree with it. That's how I feel about what you're saying. If you're so fussed about not disrespecting people, maybe you should apologise to me for shouting that nobody wants me here. I don't know what could get more disrespectful than that.

[elijahfan 24,462]

3 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

That's a completely different matter and trust me, I am first in line to criticise men for marrying young women. I don't think anyone should be dating people outside their age range, male or female. I'd actually point out, on the contrary, that women are treated better for being with younger men. It makes them appear hot, they're cougars (that can be said in a positive way as well as negative), they're MILFs, they're being a feminist who's doing just what men do, you go girl! And I find this attitude disgusting and a huge double standard. So many things that are seen as awful if a man does it is acceptable for a woman to do. I don't know what world you live in, but men being remotely interested in a very young girl is considered to be a borderline criminal. When a woman does it, it's hot. As a woman myself, I disapprove of this double standard and think it makes my gender look bad.

We must be living in 2 different worlds then.

[Dorothy Gale 7,575]

Anyone defending Madonna is obviously a deluded Stan or a pedogay.

[Snow 1,582]

@StrawberryBlond I'll just say no, she definately did not write to turn herself on nor are they her fantasies. Nor does authors really even do that. Its about talking about taboos of female sexuality to provoke ppl to think and question why women are always The object in sexual fantasies but never The ones having The fantasies and that fantasies are always from men's point of view, it is/was a taboo itself. Thats The point shes making and provoking ppl to discuss. This particular story is surely on purpose made counterpoint to The cliche Lolita fantasy of men. It IS purely fiction and ment as Such, even humoreous and tongue in cheek. As you would know should you go a few pages back where receipts were provided for that and Madonna's comments on it.

I applaude her for doing this back in The day! Sexual liberation is always great!

And you are  making presumptions again about her and about authors in general and how they work, like you would actually know that.. FYI, SEX is actually pretty well written as is her other works.

But Im sick and tired of discussing these topics with you. Let's just disagree and you can keep writing your essays as The high authority and expert of Everything. 

[Whispering 18,865]

Saw this about a year or two ago and thought it was pretty disgusting. If this fantasy story had been released in the last decade by any popular artist, or if this book from Madonna with this fantasy story had been released in the last decade, the outrage would have been potentially career ending. In fact, I don't think it would get printed and published today. 

Most boys begin puberty between the ages of ten and fourteen. This story is a creepy fantasy that should have really been kept to oneself.  

[StrawberryBlond 13,751]

28 minutes ago, elijahfan said:

We must be living in 2 different worlds then.

I''m in the UK, by the way. You can easily enter another person's world - just research online articles and see what's happening in other places and other viewpoints. If you'd do that, you'd see women get excused left right and centre for stuff that we'd drag men for. You probably see it so often that you don't even notice it. That's how pervasive it is. Look up the horny/suggestive comments given by any female judge to an attractive male contestant on a singing reality show for proof of what women get away with saying that we don't even question, but men would be pulled up for.

16 minutes ago, Snow said:

@StrawberryBlond I'll just say no, she definately did not write to turn herself on nor are they her fantasies. Nor does authors really even do that. Its about talking about taboos of female sexuality to provoke ppl to think and question why women are always The object in sexual fantasies but never The ones having The fantasies and that fantasies are always from men's point of view, it is/was a taboo itself. Thats The point shes making and provoking ppl to discuss. This particular story is surely on purpose made counterpoint to The cliche Lolita fantasy of men. It IS purely fiction and ment as Such, even humoreous and tongue in cheek. As you would know should you go a few pages back where receipts were provided for that and Madonna's comments on it.

I applaude her for doing this back in The day! Sexual liberation is always great!

And you are  making presumptions again about her and about authors in general and how they work, like you would actually know that.. FYI, SEX is actually pretty well written as is her other works.

But Im sick and tired of discussing these topics with you. Let's just disagree and you can keep writing your essays as The high authority and expert of Everything. 

What are you even saying? They're her fantasies, she admitted it's stuff that turns her on, that's why she made it. She says in that excerpt at the beginning that they are her fantasies. Not just fantasies, her fantasies. Yes, she did this to provoke taboos, but they also happened to be fantasies of her own. Yes, you could say this particular fantasy was meant to counteract the cliche Lolita fantasy but that doesn't make it ok. Underage fantasies are problematic no matter who they are about. Also, she phrases it in a way that is so amateurish, so childish. Not like a professional. It doesn't sound like it's written by a woman of experience. And I acknowledged that I'd read the excerpt and accepted that it was a work of fiction, which made me feel better about it...but not completely.

I am making a presumption of her work based on how professional writers say that they work and using basic common sense. Unlike you, I'm not biased in adoration for Madonna, I look at this from a purely logical standpoint, not through rose-tinted fan glasses. And I think this work is right up there with the 50 Shades series for literary quality (none at all). Just my opinion, which you've said I am welcome to have.

Yes, we can agree to disagree but the next time you quote me, could you please be more respectful? And I don't think I'm the high authority and expert of everything. I've said this many times. I just feel my opinions very strongly, that's all. Just like you. You certainly always write as if you have authority on everything, especially when it comes to Madonna.

[Bellatrix 34,639]

44 minutes ago, AntiPotCrusader said:

Anyone defending Madonna is obviously a deluded Stan or a pedogay.

Anyone not defending Madonna is obviously a pathetic hater.

[Sizzily 14,543]

Living for these title changes tho.

[elijahfan 24,462]

43 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I''m in the UK, by the way. You can easily enter another person's world - just research online articles and see what's happening in other places and other viewpoints. If you'd do that, you'd see women get excused left right and centre for stuff that we'd drag men for. You probably see it so often that you don't even notice it. That's how pervasive it is. Look up the horny/suggestive comments given by any female judge to an attractive male contestant on a singing reality show for proof of what women get away with saying that we don't even question, but men would be pulled up for.

... that wasn't me asking for being educated, that was me saying "let's agree to disagree". I mean I'm from France, we're obviously from the same "world"  But I mainly think we're all talking about 1000 different things here.

[Pop 4,541]

16 hours ago, KURUSHITOVSKA said:

wtf.

Homophobia (says the word "fag" to a gay man as an insult)

Racism (used the N-word, attack black men in interviews, queen of cultural appropriation)

Pedo (wrote and published pedophile ****, has a history of dating boys that could be her sons)

[Snow 1,582]

6 minutes ago, Pop said:

Homophobia (says the word "fag" to a gay man as an insult)

Racism (used the N-word, attack black men in interviews, queen of cultural appropriation)

Pedo (wrote and published pedophile ****, has a history of dating boys that could be her sons)

Excuse me? Is this about M? Jesus christ, what The heck is your problem and obsession to come to M threads to troll with lies and hate and fueling unnecessary flaimbait with this and likes of "Madonna is not a legend". -_-  

Is this really okey on ggd call ppl with these names that are obvious lies? Is this now acceptable behaviour?