Why do people ignore Madonna's ephebophilic character?

[Poot 719]

I don't see the big deal, it's not like he's a kid.

[MaryJaneHolland 77,348]

8 hours ago, Omar Vela said:

Madders defending their perverted queen ...

It's not about defending her... She didn't write how old she was when that happened... maybe she was 19, 20, 21 etc, right?? Maybe it's smth that has

never happened 

[Lucas 22,664]

I don't understand why it's bad, obviously the teenage boy wanted to have sex with her too, it's not like she forced him

[Roomingfree77 244]

19 hours ago, thotiana said:

this was brought up on another forum and i was srsly disgusted after reading this. she should've been jailed! this is all types of fxcked up

I remember get'n crabs way back then and thinking, Man I wish this was syphilis and I could fix it with some penicillin instead of all this f*ck'n laundry...

[petty 9,412]

yikes, yall are still being messy, biased and uneducated up in here?

get that hit thread i guess

[AJH219 4,448]

10 hours ago, JbGaga said:

Gaga and Madonna can both do wrong and have done wrong. Dare I say they are human like the rest of us? Only a fool would say otherwise tbh

You're entitled to think that, but I choose to believe otherwise. They only way I'd change that stance is if they outright murder someone. Until then, I'll continue to wearing my rose colored glasses and live in a delusion of happiness, not pure hatred for two amazing women . 

[Kayla 7,595]

22 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Whether it was real or not, that is a pretty sick fantasy. Now, while there was no mention of him actually being underage, she sure put in a lot of graphic descriptions that suggested that he was very young, under-age young: "teenage boy," "a virgin," "barely any pubic hair," "he never went to school," "he wasn't very big, he was a baby." None of this is coincidental, it's meant to be titillating and appeal to your darker, creepy side. And that's all very well...but don't bring borderline underage characters into it. If they're young, make it blatantly clear that they are legal. But don't overemphasise the youth, don't fetishise the youth, don't make it sound like they are attractive purely because of their youth. But she's doing all these things here and its disgraceful.

Let's put this another way...take this passage and switch the genders. It's a man talking about sex with a teenage girl, that she was a virgin and had barely any pubic hair and didn't go to school and hung out at his house and slept over at his when her parents kicked her out. Now, would you say: "don't judge, it's just harmless fantasy?" No, a man wouldn't get away with writing this. Notice when the subject is a boy, some of you said he had barely any public hair because he was a late developer or shaved? That shouldn't be the train of thought you go down when you hear this. But if it was a girl described as having no pubic hair, would you assume she was a late developer or had shaved? No, you'd assume she was underage. Because we look at boys and girls sexual situations differently. At the end of the day, this was one hell of a creepy story, real or not. And it's wrong how women are not questioned when they appear to have sick fantasies involving very young boys but when men do it, they're villified. Some feminism.

Also on this route, it implies that boys are fine to make their own sexual choices at a teen age but girls are not. It's clear that the story does not describe rape or taking advantage of another person, but it still does seem inappropriate based on current societal sex standards as they relate to the age of the people involved.

People are missing the fact that, as a writer, Madonna intentionally incorporated imagery to really send home the message that he was a young teen.
Like mentioning he didn't have pubic hair- if people think she meant he was "shaved" they need to pay attention in a literature class.
Y'all should know damn well what she meant by that line; she meant he young enough that the pubic hair hadn't come in. 

However, it is important too to remember that the writings in the sex book were meant to represent a character. Hell, didn't Nirvana make a song sung from the perspective of a rapist? That doesn't mean Kurt Cobain was molesting people; it's creating a character. And characters don't always have to make choices or have fantasies that are appropriate. 

Also important to remember that here we are criticizing Madonna for writing fiction when many male artists actually acted on these things and didn't get too much **** for it.  

[StrawberryBlond 13,751]

20 hours ago, elijahfan said:

Oh really? What I can see for sure is old guys getting married to young chicks without anyone saying anything. On the other hand, an older woman doing the same with younger guys is despised and called names. I have no idea what world you seem to be living in here, but that is the real double standard of this situation, not the other way around.

That's a completely different matter and trust me, I am first in line to criticise men for marrying young women. I don't think anyone should be dating people outside their age range, male or female. I'd actually point out, on the contrary, that women are treated better for being with younger men. It makes them appear hot, they're cougars (that can be said in a positive way as well as negative), they're MILFs, they're being a feminist who's doing just what men do, you go girl! And I find this attitude disgusting and a huge double standard. So many things that are seen as awful if a man does it is acceptable for a woman to do. I don't know what world you live in, but men being remotely interested in a very young girl is considered to be a borderline criminal. When a woman does it, it's hot. As a woman myself, I disapprove of this double standard and think it makes my gender look bad.

20 hours ago, Psychedelic said:

6. Someone close this, before that person with the Lana avatar starts writing Bibles about how sexuality should be limited to what a certain group of people think it's right. Especially NOT in a forum dedicated to an artist that fight for the right of people with different types of sexuality.

7. NOBODY IS COMITTING A CRIME HERE. Go back to Curch for your narrow-mindind way of thinking opinions. PLEASE

Of course GGD doesn't deserve soemone like that. Gaga and her fans fight for right to freedom of being, freedom of expressing yourself, expressing your sexuality, (of course without compromising some else's integrity... something which isn't happening here, AND NEVER HAPPENS WHENEVER THIS PERSON WRITES HER ESSAYS, SOOOO...)

 

WE DON'T DESERVE THIS PERSON, THANK YOU!

Wow, cowardly bullying there. Not saying my name is cowardice. Not quoting me or @'ing me is cowardice. Doing all this hoping I won't notice is cowardice. I notice everything, don't think you can hide. If my "Bibles" are too much for you, don't read them. And don't even try to compare the things I say about sex to the rights of people with different sexualities. That has nothing to do with the things I write.

I fight for the right to freedom of being, expressing yourself and sexuality...as long as it doesn't harm other people or oneself. I believe in respecting other people's values and morals and being considerate of everyone's physical and emotional state. There's some type of expression that is damaging. I speak out about that. Don't you dare suggest that I repress people with my views.

Wow, spelling out your bullying in capital letters. Loud and proud. Some people have no shame. I think it's so ironic how you criticise me for apparently not allowing people the right to express themselves and then go on to call my opinions worthless and scream that this forum doesn't deserve me, which can be very damaging to a person's self-esteem, especially if you don't know their backstory. Irony, thy name is Psychedelic.

20 hours ago, Snow said:

Omg people now get a hold of yourselves you are making Fuss about NOTHING. Its fiction and not about M. Do you know how many hundreds of works of literature and novels there are about this subject or theme!?! And some are hailed as The greatest works of literature. Are you causing uproar? Are you BURNING them ALL! No, because its fiction about a tabo theme. 

Oh and btw, did M as an author even ever say this was great? Its about TABOOS mainly.

Oh and go check you sick FANFIC pages and their content too! (Also present Invest etc.)

Now go attack nearest library since you are so morally offended by The subject in that FICTION.

Amen

Professional authors and popstars without so much as degree in literature writing some sexual fantasises are two completely different things. A professional knows what they're doing, they are real crafters and storytellers, they can dream up points of view that are completely different to their own, yet immerse themselves in these characters completely. On the other hand, anyone can write a sexual fantasy and the fantasises that we write are our own, they are the things that interest us. Madonna is hardly writing a story of a character of a character. She's just putting her own fantasises to paper. Don't overthink it. It may be under the guise of a character, but it's still her thoughts.

You always jump to such a dramatic conclusion in these situations and I don't know why. It's quite a typical reaction from a sexually liberal person - think anyone who quibbles any theories of sexual freedom must be supporting extreme conservatism and oppression. It's BS and it's offensive to people who simply want sexuality to have a humane approach. If you're so open about sexuality, why, according to you, can there only be one expression of it - the most explicit, free-wheeling one? Doesn't a middle ground exist for you?

20 hours ago, Didymus said:

Oh girl.

David Bowie f-cked a 14 year old virgin girl. Jimmy Page later had sex with the same girl. Never heard of the groupies of that time? Male rock stars got away with everything. The Rolling Stones and Chuck Berry had lyrics about underage girls and nobody gave a ****, even though there were statutory rape laws already back in the 70s. Jerry Lee Lewis had sex with a 13-year old in the 50s. Bill Wyman had sex with a 14-year old. Don Henley drugged a 16-year old in the 80s. Prince also had his teenage lover (sex at 17) and he wrote songs about her too. Marvin Gaye had sex with a 17-year old. No one bothered to defend those girls and even now people quickly pass off the whole phenomenon as "something of the time".

Nothing is even mentioned of these things usually, esp. with icons like Bowie and Prince. But you're complaining about a self-presented fictional fantasy? Get your priorities straight. It's sickening how Madonna is always thrown under the bus just because she pissed people off ever since she started in the 80s. The level of added scrutiny she faces is absurd compared to how statutory rape is just happily ignored and forgotten from male legends who actually did something criminal.

And I think those things are bad too. Only thing is, everybody thinks it's disrespectful to bring this stuff up when someone's died and they were so beloved, so to avoid having hell rained down upon me, I didn't say a thing. But I have no respect for child abusers of any kind, I can assure you. Indeed, people do pass off the phenomenon as "something of the time" and that's wrong. I don't care how long ago something happened, it's still relevant. These incidents happened when there were age of consent laws in place, when pedophilia was defined and there were laws in place against it. These men had no excuse.

I'm having problems with a fantasy because of exactly that - she was fantasising about an ambigously borderline underage boy. Our fantasies are, duh, our fantasises. If it doesn't turn us on, it's not our fantasy. So, writing about it as her fantasy means she was fantasising about an ambiguously borderline underage boy. I don't treat Madonna any better or worse than anyone else - if I see someone doing something I think is wrong, I say it, regardless of who they are. Oh, you think statutory rape is taken seriously when it's the female being the instigator? Look up any news story about a female teacher seducing a teenage boy and the comments section is filled with stuff like: "Bet he was a total legend in the changing room after this," "Looks like she gave him an education he'll never forget!" "If all my teachers were as hot as her, I'd have paid more attention in school!" This is exactly what happened when a teacher in Stirling (a place not far where I live) did just that. Here was the article about the aftermath of it and her punishment: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2590042/Married-teacher-affair-16-year-old-pupil-struck-off.html

Just 2 years on the sex offenders register and no prison sentence. What a frickin' load. To quote one commentator: "She's just lucky that she's female. Had it been a male teacher, he would have put in prison quicker than you can say 'gender equality'." If we woman want gender equality, we've got to get used to being treated like men in court. Make no mistake, women are treated so much more leniently when it comes to doing sexual stuff with young boys, be it in reality or fantasy.

20 hours ago, Bellatrix said:

If you write a story about a killer doesn't mean you want to actually kill someone, right?

See what I said to Snow a few quotes above.

20 hours ago, CrazyMonster said:

Girls shave too.

That's exactly what I said. I said that yes, if it was a girl, the argument that she could have been a late developer or shaved is a valid statement, but...it shouldn't be your first thought. And it certainly ISN'T most people's first thought when the subject is a girl.

20 hours ago, samthekid said:

of course not because men and woman are different. Men are dominant and bestial. For women it's more sensual (idk exactly because i'm a guy). 

I notice that you said you were high when you said this in a later post, but even so, you should really do some better research on women. We don't all fall under this stereotype, you know. A woman can take just as much control of a sexual situation as a man, be more dominant and not care about the sensual side at all. Women are just as complex as men and there's all different kinds with different takes on sex. Honestly, sensuality is all fine and good but I really can't stand how that word is so often used to describe "classy sexuality" or "a woman's idea of sexy." It's just a different facet of sexuality, that's all. And anyone can appreciate it, not just women.

[Kayla 7,595]

19 hours ago, Bellatrix said:

Signed, sealed, delivered.

But I guess that's not gonna make any changes, the other mods will keep being biased as f*ck.

Please cut this out. Haroon changed the title in an attempt to make it less damaging (from "acts" to "fantasies") and now I'm going to change it from "fantasies" to "character."

Don't treat us poorly just because we're not handling a thread the exact way you want us to. Where you see something problematic, we see a discussion.

And frankly, I think it's great people are bringing up a writing from decades ago that is clearly still causing controversy today. How many other expressions of sexuality from that time are still this polarizing? Madonna was ahead of her time when it came to this stuff, and this thread is highlighting the importance of discussing artwork and interpreting artistic intention. 

Now excuse me while my apparently anti-Madonna biased self goes and continues to defend her in this thread. 

[Snow 1,582]

@StrawberryBlond wtf?! How dare you? So now noone without a literary degree can write fiction with fictious character? Are you high? Thats The most moronic and ridicilous thing you have yet uttered in your bs essays. Jesus! Are you now the authority who decided what is actual literature and who is allowed to be a author and who gets to write fiction. Get off your high horse! 

Do you have any clue how many of The greatest authors of all time have no education in said Profession? 

This is no different from saying Jr Martin is pedophile or Rowling is a Wizard and Gaga a pervert murderer. Cant you get through your head that authors aren't The same as their fictious character in fiction!! 

Besides Madonna has said personally multiple times this is NOT what she personally believe. So what heck are you making assumptions that shes only writing her own fantasies or something or that she isn't capable to invent fiction. Thats your own uneducated and biaded bs.

Now go make a thread about Martin and Rowling for murdering innocent children and pedophilia or any hundred writer that has ever written about The subject.

You'rso arrogant!

 

[petty 9,412]

@StrawberryBlond

[Snow 1,582]

13 minutes ago, Kayla said:

Please cut this out. Haroon changed the title in an attempt to make it less damaging (from "acts" to "fantasies") and now I'm going to change it from "fantasies" to "character."

Don't treat us poorly just because we're not handling a thread the exact way you want us to. Where you see something problematic, we see a discussion.

And frankly, I think it's great people are bringing up a writing from decades ago that is clearly still causing controversy today. How many other expressions of sexuality from that time are still this polarizing? Madonna was ahead of her time when it came to this stuff, and this thread is highlighting the importance of discussing artwork and interpreting artistic intention. 

Don't you understand this either?! How is it okey to call M a pedophile and glorifying child rape over what a fictious character in fictious story in a work of fiction does?! Again, there's a hundred authors that have done The same?! Are they now pedophiles? Why do ppl watch GoT for instance or read The books? They are much worse... 

This has NOTHING to do with M. Sure its great to discuss The topic and that was her intention (like many other taboos in The book) But its not ok to just flaimbait and call M  pedophile!

[Kayla 7,595]

3 minutes ago, Snow said:

@StrawberryBlond wtf?! How dare you? So now noone without a literary degree can write fiction with fictious character? Are you high? Thats The most moronic and ridicilous thing you have yet uttered in your bs essays. Jesus! Are you now the authority who decided what is actual literature and who is allowed to be a author and who gets to write fiction. Get off your high horse! 

Do you have any clue how many of The greatest authors of all time have no education in said Profession? 

This is no different from saying Jr Martin is pedophile or Rowling is a Wizard and Gaga a pervert murderer. Cant you get through your head that authors aren't The same as their fictious character in fiction!! 

Besides Madonna has said personally multiple times this is NOT what she personally believe. 

Now go make a thread about Martin and Rowling for murdering innocent children and pedophilia or any hundred writer that has ever written about The subject.

You'rso arrogant!

 

She's been kind to others when posting, so please treat her with the same respect. Insults are not necessary. 

[Kayla 7,595]

Just now, Snow said:

Don't you understand this either?! How is it okey to call M a pedophile and glorifying child rape over what a fictious character in fictious story in a work of fiction does?! Again, there's a hundred authors that have done The same?! Are they now Why do ppl watch GoT for instance or read The books? They are much worse... 

This has NOTHING to do with M. Sure its great to discuss The topic and that was her intention (like many other taboos in The book) But its not ok to just flaimbait and call M  pedophile!

Did you read my post?

I agree with you on your thoughts of Madonna's writing; she's making a character, it's not representative of Madonna, people who are vilifying her for it are being delusional, etc. For ****'s sake. 

And we're not calling M a pedophile. The thread title was specifically changed to what the story actually was- an ephebophilic fantasy. And this "flamebait" has opened up some great conversation, albeit controversial. 

[petty 9,412]

2 minutes ago, Snow said:

Don't you understand this either?! How is it okey to call M a pedophile and glorifying child rape over what a fictious character in fictious story in a work of fiction does?! Again, there's a hundred authors that have done The same?! Are they now Why do ppl watch GoT for instance or read The books? They are much worse... 

This has NOTHING to do with M. Sure its great to discuss The topic and that was her intention (like many other taboos in The book) But its not ok to just flaimbait and call M  pedophile!

Just because it's a "work of fiction" doesn't mean it's ok. Other works of fiction like this have been highly criticized because they attribute to child rape culture. The "fiction" alludes to a woman sleeping with a boy in his teens no matter what way you want to twist things!

& this has everything to do with madge because she is the author of the story we are criticizing. it's really not rocket science! You are getting overly offended because you love Madonna. Which is okay but don't expect to make people change their minds with your views on it.