Who is a bigger Superstar? Gaga or Beyonce?

[Gypsy Life 118,907]

The essays 

[Roomingfree77 244]

Ask me when they get to be mine and Madge's age... 

[StrawberryBlond 13,754]

18 hours ago, Didymus said:

@StrawberryBlond

Again, 100% opinion, backtracking or ignoring of things I already countered. This is a waste of my time, quite honestly, especially when you get a sneer about how your posts are too long (which is only the case because you continue to make false claims which I want to address in detail).

I repeated my points enough for people to see where I was going, so I'm satisfied with such that conclusion. You continue on connecting your personal opinion to Beyoncé's career moves. If that makes you feel smarter than the people who enjoy her latest work, people you represent as nothing more than deceived sheep, then I applaud you for deceiving yourself so effortlessly.

Enjoy the Formation World Tour's success.

I never claimed that all of it was fact. You just interpret it that way. And I did acknowledge everything, I just condensed it down. I criticised the length of your posts because a lot of it was unnecessarily long and you repeated things in different ways. My posts may be long but I always shorten or omit things that go on a bit. I've researched Beyonce extensively, so you didn't need to go into the detail you did.

I don't feel smarter than others, I just think they way they've come to their conclusions is a bit eyebrow raising and there's reasons behind why this may have been the case. You don't agree with them, fine, but don't call me an arrogant liar just for stating my opinion.

And that's always the parting shot from a Beyonce fan, isn't it? Seethe while she pulls in money. As if that genuinely gets to us or something. At least say something a bit more original.

[KaanBTW 5,225]

I picked Beyonce but I believe they are very different. 

[Didymus 33,832]

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I never claimed that all of it was fact. You just interpret it that way.

 

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I don't feel smarter than others

"This isn't being cynical, this is clearly the truth."

"I don't pull things out my ass to bring Beyonce down."

"I judge every artist fairly."

"I base a lot of my opinions on facts and basic common sense. Just remove the fan goggles for a while and look at things rationally and you may see some of my points."

"These artists will fool and deceive you for as long as you let them get away with it. Take a stand, let them know that you won't consume whatever they throw at you without question."

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I've researched Beyonce extensively

Yet you had to backtrack constantly. From "she's using the same strategy to rip off her fans twice!" to the embarrassing "well, both albums dropped suddenly" as the only connection between era's. From "she's obligating you to buy her album" to the simple ignoring of the fact that Beyoncé offered her entire visual component of the project for free for two days on HBO days before the iTunes release, previewing all but one of her songs (the 10th being already given away for free on TIDAL weeks before).

And the flip flopping of arguments is terrifying. You accuse Beyoncé of just releasing a basic country inspired track (Daddy Lessons) but I guess that country road version of BTW and that 90's Shania Twain rip-off Yoü and I (which I love btw) and her entire jazz era are signs of her artistic integrity, yeah right. Yes you do use a double standard which is most amusingly shown by the fact that you keep insisting there is a difference between Gaga selling Monster Ball tickets before her album came out, and Beyoncé selling Formation Tour tickets before Lemonade came out. Apparently the difference is that Lemonade has 2 more songs on the album and that the Monster Ball's complete change of visual aesthetic and stage persona was forgivable because TFM was only a re-release (even though Gaga directly contradicted that before the album even came out). Come on.

Until yesterday you didn't even know that the original writer of If I Were a Boy defended Beyoncé against the accusations made about her when the story of Beyoncé buying the track from her was released to all hell ("Beyoncé is always excused" my ass). No, you used the old, fake version of that story to drag Beyoncé down in another thread - I guess you didn't base that on facts, or didn't care, then. You also dismiss the first-hand testimony of world-famous songwriter Sia who expressed her dislike for writing for Beyoncé because she "obsesses about every single instrument line", talking about the writing sessions for 2013's Beyoncé.

No, you claim Beyoncé is not involved in her music anymore and spent more time on it in the old days even though it's beyond clear that she was 10x more unfair about her credits than now (as if she was the main writer for all songs on Dangerously in Love and B'Day), even though the descriptions of her working processes are still 100% the same from 2003 (esp. 2006) until now. But no, you base it all on some light-headed Wikipedia readings. You don't even care that Beyoncé included all the writers of all the samples for Lemonade: it still counts, even though you can't even hear anyone singing because the samples are so intricately mixed into the finished tracks. But no, the production is basic and the visuals are misleading everyone. And her name too. I guess that explains why I Am... Sasha Fierce got called basic and boring, then - I guess her name didn't work then (and don't come up with Wikipedia review observations pls, if you seriously call scrolling down the Critical Reception and Charts and Certifications sections of Wikipedia "extensive research" then please get your head checked).

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

And that's always the parting shot from a Beyonce fan, isn't it? Seethe while she pulls in money. As if that genuinely gets to us or something. At least say something a bit more original.

That's not why I said it. I said it because you keep bringing this doom scenario about Beyoncé as if her fans are finally going to "stand up to her" soon and are going to be pissed off because, oh my goodness, Beyoncé didn't allow them to hear her new music before they had to buy tickets! How dare she! And when they and the critics love the tour they're just brainwashed! No, her strategy is about to fall through, 'cause she can't sell a single anymore, and you can't use that strategy forever, so she may be laughing now, but she'll learn! Tradition is the best! We'll see. All I can see right now is Lemonade doing better in its first week worldwide than Beyoncé did. Too bad.

[Chuckles 2,545]

OMG....

[Gagaplayer315 13,118]

I really dont care about Beyonce at all

[StrawberryBlond 13,754]

1 hour ago, Didymus said:

"This isn't being cynical, this is clearly the truth."

"I don't pull things out my ass to bring Beyonce down."

"I judge every artist fairly."

"I base a lot of my opinions on facts and basic common sense. Just remove the fan goggles for a while and look at things rationally and you may see some of my points."

"These artists will fool and deceive you for as long as you let them get away with it. Take a stand, let them know that you won't consume whatever they throw at you without question."

Yet you had to backtrack constantly. From "she's using the same strategy to rip off her fans twice!" to the embarrassing "well, both albums dropped suddenly" as the only connection between era's. From "she's obligating you to buy her album" to the simple ignoring of the fact that Beyoncé offered her entire visual component of the project for free for two days on HBO days before the iTunes release, previewing all but one of her songs (the 10th being already given away for free on TIDAL weeks before).

And the flip flopping of arguments is terrifying. You accuse Beyoncé of just releasing a basic country inspired track (Daddy Lessons) but I guess that country road version of BTW and that 90's Shania Twain rip-off Yoü and I (which I love btw) and her entire jazz era are signs of her artistic integrity, yeah right. Yes you do use a double standard which is most amusingly shown by the fact that you keep insisting there is a difference between Gaga selling Monster Ball tickets before her album came out, and Beyoncé selling Formation Tour tickets before Lemonade came out. Apparently the difference is that Lemonade has 2 more songs on the album and that the Monster Ball's complete change of visual aesthetic and stage persona was forgivable because TFM was only a re-release (even though Gaga directly contradicted that before the album even came out). Come on.

Until yesterday you didn't even know that the original writer of If I Were a Boy defended Beyoncé against the accusations made about her when the story of Beyoncé buying the track from her was released to all hell ("Beyoncé is always excused" my ass). No, you used the old, fake version of that story to drag Beyoncé down in another thread - I guess you didn't base that on facts, or didn't care, then. You also dismiss the first-hand testimony of world-famous songwriter Sia who expressed her dislike for writing for Beyoncé because she "obsesses about every single instrument line", talking about the writing sessions for 2013's Beyoncé.

No, you claim Beyoncé is not involved in her music anymore and spent more time on it in the old days even though it's beyond clear that she was 10x more unfair about her credits than now (as if she was the main writer for all songs on Dangerously in Love and B'Day), even though the descriptions of her working processes are still 100% the same from 2003 (esp. 2006) until now. But no, you base it all on some light-headed Wikipedia readings. You don't even care that Beyoncé included all the writers of all the samples for Lemonade: it still counts, even though you can't even hear anyone singing because the samples are so intricately mixed into the finished tracks. But no, the production is basic and the visuals are misleading everyone. And her name too. I guess that explains why I Am... Sasha Fierce got called basic and boring, then - I guess her name didn't work then (and don't come up with Wikipedia review observations pls, if you seriously call scrolling down the Critical Reception and Charts and Certifications sections of Wikipedia "extensive research" then please get your head checked).

That's not why I said it. I said it because you keep bringing this doom scenario about Beyoncé as if her fans are finally going to "stand up to her" soon and are going to be pissed off because, oh my goodness, Beyoncé didn't allow them to hear her new music before they had to buy tickets! How dare she! And when they and the critics love the tour they're just brainwashed! No, her strategy is about to fall through, 'cause she can't sell a single anymore, and you can't use that strategy forever, so she may be laughing now, but she'll learn! Tradition is the best! We'll see. All I can see right now is Lemonade doing better in its first week worldwide than Beyoncé did. Too bad.

Those quotes are taken out of context. I've never said my opinion is truth or the only one that matters. I only say things about basing opinion of facts when looking at technical aspects and marketing.

I haven't backtracked at all, you just think I have. You're convincing yourself that I'm tying myself in knots to get the last word when I have remained steadfast in all my opinions.

I don't have double standards. I never said I liked Gaga's country version of BTW and You And I is a southern rock inspired ballad, which explains the country edge. But yes, I do think that and her jazz standards are a sign of her artistic integrity because she can do any genre with ease, whatever genre she does, you'd think this was her full-time genre, she's that multi-talented, a talent that only comes around occasionally. Beyonce on the other hand, needs a lot of help to do a different genre and struggles to wear it well. It's like she's playing dress up, but with music. And I never said TFM was a re-release, I do consider it an album. But it was released like a re-release and it was sold with TF as part of a package deal in the majority of the world. So it was seen as one and the same, therefore, a tour before it was released was understandable, among other reasons. Beyonce has no valid reason for putting out tickets in advance of the album, yet pure egotism, expecting her fans to love whatever she puts out.

It doesn't matter to me if BC Jean was ok with it or not. The point is, I didn't like it. Opinions - they're not illegal yet. Point is, Beyonce was credited on the writing credits until later re-issues and is still on the production credits - explain that! And yeah, Sia said Beyonce obsesses over every instrument line - yeah, that other people have composed for her! They make the art and she critiques it and modifies it! Hardly a creator!

I don't think she wrote everything back then, but surely less writers = more personal involvement, right? How is Wiki unreliable in this instance? The credits have been perfect, down to a tee. And of course she credited the samples, that's what you have to do by law! She was actually criticised in the past for not including a credited sample for Run The World, so she's probably extra careful now. And there's more to extensive research than Wiki viewings and even so, other than her official site, where else can I find out information on her? Wiki contains true information and links to articles and as they're celebrities, this information is verified, prevented from being changed in places and resumed immediately to fact if anyone maliciously alters the page (Beyonce's page even has the little padlock symbol on the top right corner to verify that parts are semi-protected from being changed), so what's unreliable about it?

I didn't say her fans would give up on her for sure. I just said it might happen. Already, there are fans complaining that there wasn't any tunes to dance to on Lemonade and they want the old Beyonce back, that she's too serious now. Eventually, what goes up, must come down. As Gaga fans, we should know that. When you're this popular, the backlash is going to be inevitable at some point. I just hope her fans are ready for it.

But whatever. You have your opinion, I have mine. Let's agree to disagree and be done with it.

[Yanko 9,860]

ddd sb, girl you lost give it up

 

[StarstruckIllusion 47,219]

glad to see that 55% of the people here have sense. Sorry cupcakes, Bey is currently bigger . 

[Didymus 33,832]

10 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

And yeah, Sia said Beyonce obsesses over every instrument line - yeah, that other people have composed for her! They make the art and she critiques it and modifies it! Hardly a creator!

This is what I mean. I never said Beyoncé was a songwriter, in fact, I even literally said myself she relies on other people to bring her vision to life - and I also said that this, in my opinion, was fine, since this is just what mainstream pop stars (incl. Gaga who relies on her producers to a significant extent) do. You can even be happy if they do it at all. I already said that compared to someone like Grimes, both Gaga and Beyoncé look like non-creators, but that this wasn't a big deal because, again, we're talking about mainstream pop here.

So I have myself said that, yes, Beyoncé is not a "creator", yes, Gaga is more involved in the build-up from the ground up of her music. And now I have to listen to this "hardly a creator!" bs again like I haven't already acknowledged that pages ago. The point was that you claimed she was less involved now than she was back in the day, which is a fiction you literally invented to be able to defend your "Beyoncé and Lemonade are basic" opinion. "less writers = more personal involvement" girl.. don't sink that low, that is entirely untrue.

10 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

But whatever. You have your opinion, I have mine. Let's agree to disagree and be done with it.

Indeed. That's what I said from the beginning. I respect your opinion, but I don't respect you having to come up with some lame half-true "facts" to back it up. There's no need to call Beyoncé an overrated, lazy deceiver who spellbinds the critics and fans into thinking she's significant in any way, who steals money from her fans using subpar products and maliciously designed hype, to say you don't like her new albums.

That's what this has been about from the beginning. It's weak, tired, and see-through. I mean..

11 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

And I never said TFM was a re-release, I do consider it an album. But it was released like a re-release and it was sold with TF as part of a package deal in the majority of the world. So it was seen as one and the same, therefore, a tour before it was released was understandable, among other reasons.

11 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

You And I is a southern rock inspired ballad, which explains the country edge.

But Daddy Lessons is an uninspired country rip-off

11 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Beyonce on the other hand, needs a lot of help to do a different genre and struggles to wear it well. It's like she's playing dress up, but with music.

This reminds me of any random Gaga hater about her jazz and rock covers

You clearly do use double standards or you wouldn't discredit an entire artist as a whole with irrelevant info instead of just focusing on the specific topics at hand: who is the biggest superstar? In a thread about if Beyoncé can pull off many genres, sure, you can bring your own opinion regarding Beyoncé's rock, jazz and other covers, but why do it here? In a thread about Beyoncé's involvement in her music and visuals, sure you can expand on your thoughts about it, but why do it here? In a thread about Beyoncé's business tactics, sure, you can present your thoughts about why you think they might be dishonest to her fans.

But that's not what you do. You enter in a full attack on an entire artist's legitimacy just because you are too arrogant to write your opinion just like everyone else. You have to throw everything you have on an artist on a huge mountain of criticism, no matter how little it contributes to the conversation. That's annoying, it's unfair, but most of all: it shows you are using a double standard from the get-go. Your posts literally read exactly like what a Gaga hater would say about her: everything she does is a trick, bad, illegitimate, overrated, and embarrassing compared to some other figure presented as the height of artistic creation or whatever. Your actual arguments clearly take only a secondary role, as many times they're not even consistent or valid.

That's what it's about. This is not about me discrediting your opinion, I'm absolutely fine with it. But I'm not fine with this act you're pulling in various threads, because it's transparent and someone simply has to call you out for it, just like I'd like people to call me out on being unfair or using weird and invalid arguments. Yet you keep pretending you've been consistent, well.. the only thing you've been consistent in is your blind hatred towards anything Beyoncé has done since 2013. Whatever targets you could find to fire at were a bonus. I find that desperate and I wanted to engage in a conversation about that, because, like I literally said: I think your posts would be a lot more interesting if you just presented your opinion about a certain topic fairly and without unnecessary bs. And I mean that.

[Gardevoir 9,414]

On 30.04.2016 at 5:15 PM, Bae said:

Gaga is so cute. Her dancing can be really good if she tried. 

The thing about Gaga is that several first concerts of her tours she dances her ass off, but then she gets a little lazy about the choreography. I guess it's monotony.

[phoenixxx 33]

Both are hugely talented and superstars in the real sense of the word, but in very different ways.

Beyonce's more produced - she's an incredible diva, a real superstar, but historically she's been more of a 'product' than a creative artist. She's been in the public eye since forever - she's a seasoned pro and has a fantastic team of experts directing her every move more or less. Her more recent work is slightly different -  more personal, and with more creative integrity, but that's a very recent development.

Gaga's an auteur - a massive risk taker, somewhat mercurial and chaotic at times - she'll start a hundred different projects but has come up with a hundred more ideas and moved on before she's finished them. She's more ADHD, but that brings with it a whole load of creativity - new ideas and inspirations. She's very headstrong - she cannot and will not be tamed by execs and image consultants. 

Bey is all about consistency, Gaga is all about change.

Chalk and cheese

 

[Roomingfree77 244]

11 minutes ago, phoenixxx said:

Both are hugely talented and superstars in the real sense of the word, but in very different ways.

Beyonce's more produced - she's an incredible diva, a real superstar, but historically she's been more of a 'product' than a creative artist. She's been in the public eye since forever - she's a seasoned pro and has a fantastic team of experts directing her every move more or less. Her more recent work is slightly different -  more personal, and with more creative integrity, but that's a very recent development.

Gaga's an auteur - a massive risk taker, somewhat mercurial and chaotic at times - she'll start a hundred different projects but has come up with a hundred more ideas and moved on before she's finished them. She's more ADHD, but that brings with it a whole load of creativity - new ideas and inspirations. She's very headstrong - she cannot and will not be tamed by execs and image consultants. 

Bey is all about consistency, Gaga is all about change.

Chalk and cheese

 

My Uncle was a Farmer and did all things regarding farming and he was the one that explained it to me that you

"Gotta let a bird dog hunt if you both wanna eat"

 

[StrawberryBlond 13,754]

10 hours ago, Didymus said:

This is what I mean. I never said Beyoncé was a songwriter, in fact, I even literally said myself she relies on other people to bring her vision to life - and I also said that this, in my opinion, was fine, since this is just what mainstream pop stars (incl. Gaga who relies on her producers to a significant extent) do. You can even be happy if they do it at all. I already said that compared to someone like Grimes, both Gaga and Beyoncé look like non-creators, but that this wasn't a big deal because, again, we're talking about mainstream pop here.

So I have myself said that, yes, Beyoncé is not a "creator", yes, Gaga is more involved in the build-up from the ground up of her music. And now I have to listen to this "hardly a creator!" bs again like I haven't already acknowledged that pages ago. The point was that you claimed she was less involved now than she was back in the day, which is a fiction you literally invented to be able to defend your "Beyoncé and Lemonade are basic" opinion. "less writers = more personal involvement" girl.. don't sink that low, that is entirely untrue.

Indeed. That's what I said from the beginning. I respect your opinion, but I don't respect you having to come up with some lame half-true "facts" to back it up. There's no need to call Beyoncé an overrated, lazy deceiver who spellbinds the critics and fans into thinking she's significant in any way, who steals money from her fans using subpar products and maliciously designed hype, to say you don't like her new albums.

That's what this has been about from the beginning. It's weak, tired, and see-through. I mean..

But Daddy Lessons is an uninspired country rip-off

This reminds me of any random Gaga hater about her jazz and rock covers

You clearly do use double standards or you wouldn't discredit an entire artist as a whole with irrelevant info instead of just focusing on the specific topics at hand: who is the biggest superstar? In a thread about if Beyoncé can pull off many genres, sure, you can bring your own opinion regarding Beyoncé's rock, jazz and other covers, but why do it here? In a thread about Beyoncé's involvement in her music and visuals, sure you can expand on your thoughts about it, but why do it here? In a thread about Beyoncé's business tactics, sure, you can present your thoughts about why you think they might be dishonest to her fans.

But that's not what you do. You enter in a full attack on an entire artist's legitimacy just because you are too arrogant to write your opinion just like everyone else. You have to throw everything you have on an artist on a huge mountain of criticism, no matter how little it contributes to the conversation. That's annoying, it's unfair, but most of all: it shows you are using a double standard from the get-go. Your posts literally read exactly like what a Gaga hater would say about her: everything she does is a trick, bad, illegitimate, overrated, and embarrassing compared to some other figure presented as the height of artistic creation or whatever. Your actual arguments clearly take only a secondary role, as many times they're not even consistent or valid.

That's what it's about. This is not about me discrediting your opinion, I'm absolutely fine with it. But I'm not fine with this act you're pulling in various threads, because it's transparent and someone simply has to call you out for it, just like I'd like people to call me out on being unfair or using weird and invalid arguments. Yet you keep pretending you've been consistent, well.. the only thing you've been consistent in is your blind hatred towards anything Beyoncé has done since 2013. Whatever targets you could find to fire at were a bonus. I find that desperate and I wanted to engage in a conversation about that, because, like I literally said: I think your posts would be a lot more interesting if you just presented your opinion about a certain topic fairly and without unnecessary bs. And I mean that.

However you choose to interpret it, she's not much of a creator and that's just a fact. I don't know how you could possibly deny the idea of "less writers = more personal involvement." What, so you believe in the opposite? How does that make any sense?

Thing is, I have to bring up this stuff so that people can find my opinion more valid. It's hopeless trying to make Beyonce fans understand why her music is mediocre at times. You explain and they don't accept it, they just say you're pressed. So, you have to bring up other stuff like how there are people making this type of music better and aren't getting the praise for it or she didn't even really create the work that they're claiming came from her, etc.

You and I and Daddy Lessons are on two different levels. I actually like DL, but it's just above average, Y&I is perfect. Beyonce sounds like an inexperienced person trying out country and just finding their feet whereas Gaga sounds like she's been doing this style since she was knee high. One sounds amateur, one sounds professional. And let's not forget that Gaga can play instruments too. Part of the reasons she slays Y&I live is because she plays piano. Beyonce can't play an instrument, so she can't truly bring the authenticity of DL because she can't play guitar. People who are doing covers of that song right now on YouTube are more authentic than her. Most country artists can play at least one instrument, so when you sing a country song without instrument playing, it takes down your authenticity.

It doesn't sound like something Gaga haters would say at all. Maybe in the old days, not now. Now people know that Gaga writes all her stuff and that she can do multiple genres. And that she carries them off with ease. She's doing all this stuff early in her career too. This is the first time Beyonce ever done anything this experimental, after 13 years of being solo. That seems inauthentic. In just 8 years, Gaga has released 2 risky albums, a covers album with an old man and dabbled in a few genres and now it looks like she's starting to learn electric guitar and is taking more risks with her next release. Yet, its taken Beyonce 13 years to take a proper risk. That just strikes me as someone who thought being experimental is trendy now so she may as well try it.

Bringing up those things is relevant to judging who is the bigger superstar, though. A superstar has star power and that star power enables them to sell records, tickets, etc. A superstar is also somebody multi-talented (in my opinion), can basically do everything and someone who can create (if they're an artist). And I also think a superstar doesn't need to resort to tricks to get success because pure talent is enough to see them through. So, I think my criticisms of Beyonce's inability to pull off mutiple genres with ease (and without help), her lack of involvement in the creation of her work and her shady business tactics to get sales are 100% relevant to judging if she's a superstar or not.

I'm not too arrogant to state my opinion, it's just my opinion is loaded with fact behind it. And for goodness sake, stop saying it's what a Gaga hater would say - I've seen that phrase thrown around here so often and it means nothing because we're talking about 2 different artists. Obviously, I don't agree with the criticisms of Gaga and believe these criticisms do not apply to her. But do these same criticisms apply to other artists? Of course! So, how is it a double standard?

Oh, that's funny, you want to be called out if you're being unfair or using weird or invalid arguments...I did that yesterday concerning Beyonce stealing If I Were A Boy and you brushed me off. But I found your opinion unfair, weird and invalid, so why didn't you want to entertain a different way of looking at things? You don't seem so keen to have your opinion critiqued like you claim. And I haven't had blind hatred towards everything Beyonce since 2013 (and I disliked her since roughly 2007, by the way!). When she's good, I praise her. I've already said her debut was her best album and 4, Lemonade and Beyonce being her second bests. I've always said she was a good singer, dancer and all-round performer. I thought her live performance of Ave Maria at her I Am tour was stunning and made me see, for just a moment, what her fans see in her. While her ways of expressing it are problematic, I've praised her for being proud to call herself a feminist. I praised her for taking a risk with Lemonade. So, no, I am not blind with hatred - I am fair towards all artists. Just because I don't kiss their asses when it's trendy doesn't mean I'm being overly critical. I like to think what I originally said was stating my opinion fairly and without BS and I do think it's very interesting if you bring up some insider knowledge. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's unfair and BS. I've found that a lot of Beyonce fans get angry when you present them with the truth because deep down, they know it's true and they can't stand it because it topples their idea of stanning for an impossible goddess who does everything right. Like I said, I'd happily go into an indepth analysis of Lemonade but now isn't the time. I did post a review of it when it came out, though.