Who is a bigger Superstar? Gaga or Beyonce?

[mitchellok 14]

Biggest? Bey's curvier and taller so I think she would weigh a bit more so I'll vote Bey.

[display name 4,360]

Of course, I prefer Gaga in every way, but Beyoncé has been slaying as of late, so her.

[Didymus 34,379]

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

It's clear that this may now be a formula Beyonce will continue to use.

You continue to make up lies. You claim Beyoncé has used a formula for Beyoncé, which first of all she hasn't even used (see below), and then you claim Beyoncé has repeated that formula with Lemonade, which she also didn't use and thus didn't repeat.

Overview to make sure you respond correctly:

Beyoncé (2013):
* December 13: exclusive release on iTunes for 7 days
* December 20: physical release
* December 21: free screening of all the 17 video's in New York
* January 26: Grammy performance
* February 19: BRIT performance
* June 13: screening of all the 17 video's at the Los Angeles Film Festival
* June 14: start of the ticket sale for the On the Run Tour with Jay-Z
* June 25: U.S. tour in support of the album with Jay-Z
* June 29: BET performance
* September 20: entire recorded show (in France) shown on HBO
* November 24: re-release with 10 professionally recorded Mrs. Carter Tour performances as a bonus dvd, plus a separate EP release "Beyoncé: More Only" for the ones who already bought the album, with the same bonus dvd. The release was critically acclaimed, so don't bring me the "that's another trick no effort was put into", it was noted for its value as a re-release.

So yes she did do a promo streak before tickets for her tour went on sale, and to respond to what you said in an earlier post (that you didn't understand why Beyoncé included Beyoncé songs on her ending tour): she included songs in her tour supporting 4 because most of Europe wouldn't see the On the Run Tour, since there were only two dates in France. Note how she didn't return to France for the last leg of the Mrs. Carter Tour - it was planned.

So in all fairness, Beyoncé was an entirely traditional album release excluding the fact that she announced her album or sold singles in advance, and excluding the fact that she went on a joint tour instead of doing a solo one (though I don't find that in any way something to use against her, since she had just been on tour from 2013 to 2014 and is now already back on a solo tour with a new album in 2016, with plenty of material from Beyoncé included. Besides, many of the performances of the Mrs. Carter Tour involving new material were broadcast anyway for those who didn't have a chance to see it on an earlier leg.

Lemonade (2015):
* February 6: "release" of Formation (private video on YouTube)
* February 7: Superbowl performance
* February 7: announcement of the Formation Tour
* April 23: entire short film on HBO featuring all of her new songs excl. Formation
* April 23: album and short film exclusively on TIDAL
* April 25: official digital release
* April 27: start of the tour, featuring 8 (out of 10) new tracks
* May 6: official physical release

If you seriously think this is the same strategy then..

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Now she's done this formula twice in a row to massive success, she's not going to stop. Her fans will have to buy tickets and not know what they're getting for it and be on tenderhooks in the days leading up to the first date forevermore. Because if she goes back to traditional releases, the singles will flop and she'll be called unoriginal for going back to the old way.

So yeah, she only did the formula once, first of all (see above).

Second of all, what a load of CRAP She's not releasing singles because her new material is not even radio friendly. XO and maybe Drunk in Love was an exception, and these were actually released as singles. Both were met critical acclaim and placed on several critics' best of lists (Drunk in Love notably by Pitchfork who presented it as #44 on a lit of the 200 best songs of the decade, as well as being #1 on Rolling Stone's best of 2014 list). XO sold nearly 1.500.000. I doubt it would be called a flop if it sold less, due to the acclaim the song and the video got.

As for Drunk in Love, it won two Grammy's, was the greatest airplay gainer on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop airplay charts for three consecutive weeks (it made it to #1 eventually), debuted the highest of any Beyoncé single ever on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop chart (#2). The song also debuted on #12 on the Billboard chart, which is her highest debut on the chart ever, equalling it with Ring the Alarm. It made it to #2, which makes it Beyoncé's highest position on the chart since Single Ladies more than five years earlier. It also spent eight more weeks in the Top 10, getting a 3x Platinum certification for 3.000.000 copies. In the UK the song made it to #9 on the UK charts (#3 on the R&B charts), making it her 17th top 10 hit in the UK (fun fact for you especially: she has more top 10 hits there than in the U.S.) It also got a Platinum certification for 600.000 copies. At its peak it was the 8th most digitally purchased song in Europe. Another remarkable achievement: a Platinum certification in Denmark for 2.600.000 streams.

She obviously has no reason to fear if her most experimental R&B track ever received such international acclaim and commercial success, and if you believe otherwise, I can only conclude that, again, you're being very biased.

As for Lemonade, I can't think of any track except Formation and Daddy Lessons and maybe All Night to send to radio. Formation was not released ordinarily, but I think that has more to do with the fact that the point of that release was that it would be talked about (for the right reasons). As for other singles, they might still come, though I don't see the point of that since she has no music video's which are a big part in making your song widely successful. She made a short film as a visual statement accompanying her concept album. That to me is a lot more admirable and interesting than being "scared" that will latch on and to just go for a traditional release, since that secures more success. I find it very odd that you choose to reverse that fact and call a non-traditional release a safe move

Besides, if you're so harsh on Beyoncé, what about Lana? Where are her singles? Where are her music video's for every song? Didn't you call Beyoncé lazy? What does that make Lana who won't even go on tour to promote her album? Beyoncé did three tours in three years and released two solo albums in the same timespan. And even if you bring the "yeah, but she doesn't have to write the albums" argument, I won't ask your opinion about how lazy it is to do three tours in three years and be on set to shoot 27 music video's in that same time period. 'cause I don't think you're delusional enough to seriously call that lazy.

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Yes, releasing 2 songs pre-tour was a very sneaky move because the fans thought it was going to be part of the album and these were little promo singles or something. But they didn't make the album and she's not cared about them ever since. So, they were there to trick people. Pure and simple.

Again, wrong. And I was wrong too, as it turns out. There were three new songs and they were all included in her tour in full, my bad. One of them was for her H&M campaign so that doesn't count (in fact, it's even quite admirable she made a whole song for that), one of them actually is on Beyoncé (liar) and the other is actually being performed again on the Formation Tour Guess you don't have the facts straight again. Besides, a remix was made of Standing on the Sun for the platinum edition of Beyoncé so no, she didn't forget about those tracks. Another fable.

Besides, you can, again, easily make the same case for Gaga. She performed Glitter and Grease as the second song on the setlist for two years and then abandoned it too, as well as Living on the Radio which went viral (among the fans) as one of the new tracks for BTW. And don't forget Princess Die or Cake Like Lady Gaga. Were those tricks too? At least the Beyoncé fans actually have finished recordings of all those three songs I mentioned, either on an album, in a commercial, or on a professionally recorded live track. Bye.

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I'm sorry, but when you pay top dollar for a touring experience, you'd better damn well have an idea about what you're getting for that. If it's a greatest hits tour, make it clear. If it's supporting a new album yet to be released, make it clear. If it's a collection of completely random songs, make it clear. If you don't, you'll piss people off.

Except that to every person except you it was obvious that the Mrs. Carter Tour was a tour that would promote 4 songs most of all since that was her recent release for which she had not toured (residencies exluded), and that it was a concept tour that would be a meditation on her marriage and the new role Beyoncé felt she had to adopt. She wanted to make a statement about that, and the underlying feminist messages were noted and intensely discussed online before her tour even started, because of Beyoncé's promotion of the tour with images and statements. So yes, we knew exactly what it was gonna be and you are a lying snake.

Besides, she didn't ever piss people off with her tours The latest "trick" ones are even her most critically acclaimed, so who the hell are you trying to delude but yourself, I wonder..

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

These artists will fool and deceive you for as long as you let them get away with it. Take a stand, let them know that you won't consume whatever they throw at you without question.

Except you're not a fan, not buying Beyoncé's album, not going to her tours, you're just bashing her online when all her other fans are loving what Beyoncé is delivering. Who the **** cares about you being unsatisfied and projecting that opinion on to everyone else? How arrogant can you be? She spent more time crafting her recent projects than any of her competitors and you have the audacity to demand her fans to be unsatisfied and "stand up" to her as if she is not delivering an absolutely brand new album and tour experience every single time, despite the amount of time between them is remarkably short?

I didn't see this overcritical mess of posts when Gaga delivered 10% of what she promised for ARTPOP and didn't deliver what she described her tour to be for artRAVE. It wasn't a "rave" at all, it barely incorporated fashion and technology, and the music arrangements (and even the choreographies for her hit songs) were identical to her previous tours. Yet when you take only a superficial glance at Beyoncé's tours (which you claim are slapped together tricks to squeeze out money from her fans) you'll see that nearly every song is re-arranged with a brand new choreography and a stunning visual companion piece in an innovative stage design. Who are you kidding? And no, I'm not bashing Gaga here, I'm just again underscoring the fact that you use completely different standards for artists you should be treating equally based on their output.

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Gaga has never put out tour dates before an album (like I said, TFM, which is considered an EP by some and is only 34 minutes in length and was offered as a reissue of TF in most regions, would hardly require a tour all of its own and TF didn't have a proper arena tour, so it was more in support of that than anything).

Except the tour aesthetic was entirely linked to that 34 minutes EP and was a notable move away from her TF atmosphere both in terms of visuals and stage design. I thought artists had to clearly let their fans know what they should be expecting. Guess I caught you using two standards once again. What a shame.

Besides, everyone who had heard Bad Romance before those tickets went on sale obviously knew they weren't getting a TF rehash. Both the sound and the visuals were completely different. And before you start screaming: "See! They did know what it was gonna be like!", Formation knocks on the door to silence you.

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I said artists who have confidence in their abilities and respect their fans don't need to do this.

Well, then I'm excited to see you demand all the unreleased songs and multiple music video's Gaga promised for ARTPOP in some other threads. Or didn't she just abandon every single release idea she hyped us with in 2012? Didn't she just let the app timer go off without saying a word? Didn't she release two perfumes she afterwards admitted she didn't want to release? Didn't she?

Where is her respect then? Even if you don't like Beyoncé (god knows I haven't liked her output until 2013) she DELIVERS for her fans and extremely frequently. After 18 years she is still on the cutting edge of what pop music can bring to the table and now she's even bringing her fans 20x the visual treat fans of pop artists usually get. Yet you claim her to be a lazy fraud who is ripping off her fans with sub-par products. You cannot claim this is truthful and objective when you are still here stanning for Gaga, who you claim is an artist with artistic authenticity and can do no wrong. Hell, there's even a difference between selling your tickets in advance to your album! My goodness!

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I didn't say Beyonce was unsuccessful commercially, I said the sales weren't all that in he grand scheme of things for an album that was supposedly such an event and "everyone" knew the songs from (I mean, it only sold 100k or more in 3 countries).

So now you're hopping from "SHE HAS NO AUTHENTICITY, SHE'S A BAD ARTIST!" to "SHE DOESN'T SELL! SHE'S A BAD ARTIST!". Hilarious. The fact that her experimental album doesn't sell as well as an album jam packed full of hits that have already dominated the radio for months should actually be a logical connection.

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

And I didn't say the reviews centred more on the visuals than the music

Well, technically you didn't, but you did say: "But, ironically, the focus hasn't been completely on the music. It was on the videos for every song, the whole surprise of the thing. That's what was talked about more than the actual music by the public at large."

So obviously the reviews fit in there too. Besides, I just don't have the intellectual non-capacity to take the "they were overexcited because of the fact that there were visuals" argument seriously. You can't back that up with anything, so that's just your own opinion with no objective foundation, which you claim is the case for these posts.

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I listened to the album without visuals and found it just ok. And I can honestly say that the videos improve things. But music isn't about videos, it's about music, and without the videos, these songs are, for the most part, lacking. It's the same for all artists. Videos are a great distraction tool.

That's funny, I hate the video's and I think the album is a masterpiece. Guess we don't all have the same opinion as you, how shocking. Maybe I'm an anomaly who doesn't respond to the automatic law of "when you have visuals, you automatically think the music is better because of the eventful mix of it all". In fact, I couldn't even get through the album without at least 10 listening sessions because it was so long and not at all an easy listen. Complete deviation from what she usually does (just the standard structure Gaga still uses in all her songs), so it was actually difficult to get into but extremely rewarding when you note all the details, the lyrical value of each song, and the flow of the thing. Which, surprise, is exactly what the reviews noted as well.

I don't even think I watched any of the video's more than once, and most of them I didn't even watch halfway through. I also find it quite unbelievable that every critic who reviewed the album saw those video's at all. In many reviews they're only referred to without being described, and I think the reviews had to come through so quickly due to the fact that it was a surprise release, that I find it a bit unbelievable that the reviews are all built on the experience of watching them. But whatever, it's overrated yada yada.

If video's are such a great distraction tool, then I guess all video's for every single ****ing single release is a distraction tool, especially when you make an 9-minute video about a 3 minute song that's essentially about partying and not wanting someone to call you 'cause you're having fun at the club. And don't give me "but the video was artistic and innovative" 'cause it was essentially a rehash of what she did for Paparazzi and Bad Romance. She's betrayed, someone gets killed, product placement, product placement, product placement. And nudity. But no, you're talking about a fleshed out visual album/short film and calling it a lazy distraction to make money. K gurl.

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Spending more on songwriting and co-production? Don't make me laugh. She barely played a role in under half this album, hence the upwards of 6 co-writers on 5 tracks (16 overall on Hold Up).

First off, the album uses a gazillion (interestingly chosen) samples, the writers of which are all credited. We know she uses writing camps but we also know she obsesses about every single instrument (confirmed by Sia who hates writing for her for that reason), so yawn.

Again: double standard. Gaga literally sang over an instrumental she just bought and changed a few details to. 8 writers for Applause. Again, double standard. They're both very involved in their product (Gaga obviously more in terms of the build-up, even though we know she can also just take a finished production and just write over it) so I don't see any good reason to paint Beyoncé as some lazy non-artist. When we compare any pop artist to someone like Grimes who writes and produces an entire (pop) album on her own, they're both lazy scammers. So where are you then?

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

And actually, all her albums have been well-received until now, look it up. She's never had reception a la ARTPOP in her life.

I have looked it up.. ARTPOP and I Am... Sasha Fierce got the exact same Metacritic score minus one point (61 and 62 respectively) and similar reviews: basic, boring, no real emotion, just repeating tricks, yawn; and 4 was well received in theory but did receive a backlash from many of the casual fans.

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

She's always been overrated.

Again, easy to say, harder to explain. Skip the bs and just finally come out with your personal opinion instead of bringing out all this extra crap to somehow convince yourself and others (not working) that your opinion is not a subjective one. God.

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I didn't say that people consider Beyonce's best material was a long time ago, I'm just talking about legends in general. Everyone says it, so why do critics still praise their sub-par modern efforts?

lmao come on. Destiny's Child was not even ever acclaimed, and their last album (which came out after Dangerously in Love) was bashed. And if you're seriously gonna claim that "long ago" is 2003 So no, nobody agrees with your assessment that Beyoncé's oldest stuff is the best (which isn't a case you can make for every legend either btw) and, again, you haven't explained why Beyoncé's "modern" (bitch pls) stuff is subpar. I mean, I personally can't even understand anyone agreeing with that ludicrous idea, but I can respect someone's opinion about that perfectly when they simply state why and leave it at that, not this "my opinion is based on facts and everyone says so except the critics and the entire fanbase, but whatever I'm still gonna pretend it's true" bs. So petty and unnecessary.

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

And I think it's just because the material is her most solid and there's only 2 bad songs on the whole thing, as opposed to her other albums which are more hit and miss and have multiple terrible tracks. It's also Beyonce doing RnB and soul, which suits her best

And this isn't enough You spend nearly half a page on explaining why Beyoncé is a fraud who rips off her fans with some sort of imaginary strategies and then you devote a sad two sentences on the actual core of the matter: I don't like her work.

Guess what, the critics think there are no fillers on her recent albums and you can sure believe that the majority of listeners agree. And how are Beyoncé and Lemonade not R&B and soul inspired?

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I just get frustrated when I see something get praised in such an overblown way when it's not sonically stunning by any extent of the imagination. I just wonder what people see in it.

Well, wonder in silence instead of using very biased and sometimes just wrong information to pretend your opinion is more important. I wonder what people see in Dangerously in Love and pretty much every album pre-Beyoncé but I remember there's such a thing as subjective taste. I think you are blowing everything hugely out of proportion.

And I also think you need to pay some serious attention to Beyoncé's last two new records. If you're a Lana fan and you like Ultraviolence and Honeymoon, I don't see why you can't appreciate Beyoncé and Lemonade. After all, Lana deviated massively from Born to Die and focused more on atmosphere, more evocative production and less on pop format and radio friendliness. Why can't you make the connection? I don't understand it. Unless you're a Born to Die stan

[VANTABLACK 7,787]

17 minutes ago, Didymus said:

You continue to make up lies. You claim Beyoncé has used a formula for Beyoncé, which first of all she hasn't even used (see below), and then you claim Beyoncé has repeated that formula with Lemonade, which she also didn't use and thus didn't repeat.

Overview to make sure you respond correctly:

Beyoncé (2013):
* December 13: exclusive release on iTunes for 7 days
* December 20: physical release
* December 21: free screening of all the 17 video's in New York
* January 26: Grammy performance
* February 19: BRIT performance
* June 13: screening of all the 17 video's at the Los Angeles Film Festival
* June 14: start of the ticket sale for the On the Run Tour with Jay-Z
* June 25: U.S. tour in support of the album with Jay-Z
* June 29: BET performance
* September 20: entire recorded show (in France) shown on HBO
* November 24: re-release with 10 professionally recorded Mrs. Carter Tour performances as a bonus dvd, plus a separate EP release "Beyoncé: More Only" for the ones who already bought the album, with the same bonus dvd. The release was critically acclaimed, so don't bring me the "that's another trick no effort was put into", it was noted for its value as a re-release.

So yes she did do a promo streak before tickets for her tour went on sale, and to respond to what you said in an earlier post (that you didn't understand why Beyoncé included Beyoncé songs on her ending tour): she included songs in her tour supporting 4 because most of Europe wouldn't see the On the Run Tour, since there were only two dates in France. Note how she didn't return to France for the last leg of the Mrs. Carter Tour - it was planned.

So in all fairness, Beyoncé was an entirely traditional album release excluding the fact that she announced her album or sold singles in advance, and excluding the fact that she went on a joint tour instead of doing a solo one (though I don't find that in any way something to use against her, since she had just been on tour from 2013 to 2014 and is now already back on a solo tour with a new album in 2016, with plenty of material from Beyoncé included. Besides, many of the performances of the Mrs. Carter Tour involving new material were broadcast anyway for those who didn't have a chance to see it on an earlier leg.

Lemonade (2015):
* February 6: "release" of Formation (private video on YouTube)
* February 7: Superbowl performance
* February 7: announcement of the Formation Tour
* April 23: entire short film on HBO featuring all of her new songs excl. Formation
* April 23: album and short film exclusively on TIDAL
* April 25: official digital release
* April 27: start of the tour, featuring 8 (out of 10) new tracks
* May 6: official physical release

If you seriously think this is the same strategy then..

So yeah, she only did the formula once, first of all (see above).

Second of all, what a load of CRAP She's not releasing singles because her new material is not even radio friendly. XO and maybe Drunk in Love was an exception, and these were actually released as singles. Both were met critical acclaim and placed on several critics' best of lists (Drunk in Love notably by Pitchfork who presented it as #44 on a lit of the 200 best songs of the decade, as well as being #1 on Rolling Stone's best of 2014 list). XO sold nearly 1.500.000. I doubt it would be called a flop if it sold less, due to the acclaim the song and the video got.

As for Drunk in Love, it won two Grammy's, was the greatest airplay gainer on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop airplay charts for three consecutive weeks (it made it to #1 eventually), debuted the highest of any Beyoncé single ever on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop chart (#2). The song also debuted on #12 on the Billboard chart, which is her highest debut on the chart ever, equalling it with Ring the Alarm. It made it to #2, which makes it Beyoncé's highest position on the chart since Single Ladies more than five years earlier. It also spent eight more weeks in the Top 10, getting a 3x Platinum certification for 3.000.000 copies. In the UK the song made it to #9 on the UK charts (#3 on the R&B charts), making it her 17th top 10 hit in the UK (fun fact for you especially: she has more top 10 hits there than in the U.S.) It also got a Platinum certification for 600.000 copies. At its peak it was the 8th most digitally purchased song in Europe. Another remarkable achievement: a Platinum certification in Denmark for 2.600.000 streams.

She obviously has no reason to fear if her most experimental R&B track ever received such international acclaim and commercial success, and if you believe otherwise, I can only conclude that, again, you're being very biased.

As for Lemonade, I can't think of any track except Formation and Daddy Lessons and maybe All Night to send to radio. Formation was not released ordinarily, but I think that has more to do with the fact that the point of that release was that it would be talked about (for the right reasons). As for other singles, they might still come, though I don't see the point of that since she has no music video's which are a big part in making your song widely successful. She made a short film as a visual statement accompanying her concept album. That to me is a lot more admirable and interesting than being "scared" that will latch on and to just go for a traditional release, since that secures more success. I find it very odd that you choose to reverse that fact and call a non-traditional release a safe move

Besides, if you're so harsh on Beyoncé, what about Lana? Where are her singles? Where are her music video's for every song? Didn't you call Beyoncé lazy? What does that make Lana who won't even go on tour to promote her album? Beyoncé did three tours in three years and released two solo albums in the same timespan. And even if you bring the "yeah, but she doesn't have to write the albums" argument, I won't ask your opinion about how lazy it is to do three tours in three years and be on set to shoot 27 music video's in that same time period. 'cause I don't think you're delusional enough to seriously call that lazy.

Again, wrong. And I was wrong too, as it turns out. There were three new songs and they were all included in her tour in full, my bad. One of them was for her H&M campaign so that doesn't count (in fact, it's even quite admirable she made a whole song for that), one of them actually is on Beyoncé (liar) and the other is actually being performed again on the Formation Tour Guess you don't have the facts straight again. Besides, a remix was made of Standing on the Sun for the platinum edition of Beyoncé so no, she didn't forget about those tracks. Another fable.

Besides, you can, again, easily make the same case for Gaga. She performed Glitter and Grease as the second song on the setlist for two years and then abandoned it too, as well as Living on the Radio which went viral (among the fans) as one of the new tracks for BTW. And don't forget Princess Die or Cake Like Lady Gaga. Were those tricks too? At least the Beyoncé fans actually have finished recordings of all those three songs I mentioned, either on an album, in a commercial, or on a professionally recorded live track. Bye.

Except that to every person except you it was obvious that the Mrs. Carter Tour was a tour that would promote 4 songs most of all since that was her recent release for which she had not toured (residencies exluded), and that it was a concept tour that would be a meditation on her marriage and the new role Beyoncé felt she had to adopt. She wanted to make a statement about that, and the underlying feminist messages were noted and intensely discussed online before her tour even started, because of Beyoncé's promotion of the tour with images and statements. So yes, we knew exactly what it was gonna be and you are a lying snake.

Besides, she didn't ever piss people off with her tours The latest "trick" ones are even her most critically acclaimed, so who the hell are you trying to delude but yourself, I wonder..

Except you're not a fan, not buying Beyoncé's album, not going to her tours, you're just bashing her online when all her other fans are loving what Beyoncé is delivering. Who the **** cares about you being unsatisfied and projecting that opinion on to everyone else? How arrogant can you be? She spent more time crafting her recent projects than any of her competitors and you have the audacity to demand her fans to be unsatisfied and "stand up" to her as if she is not delivering an absolutely brand new album and tour experience every single time, despite the amount of time between them is remarkably short?

I didn't see this overcritical mess of posts when Gaga delivered 10% of what she promised for ARTPOP and didn't deliver what she described her tour to be for artRAVE. It wasn't a "rave" at all, it barely incorporated fashion and technology, and the music arrangements (and even the choreographies for her hit songs) were identical to her previous tours. Yet when you take only a superficial glance at Beyoncé's tours (which you claim are slapped together tricks to squeeze out money from her fans) you'll see that nearly every song is re-arranged with a brand new choreography and a stunning visual companion piece in an innovative stage design. Who are you kidding? And no, I'm not bashing Gaga here, I'm just again underscoring the fact that you use completely different standards for artists you should be treating equally based on their output.

Except the tour aesthetic was entirely linked to that 34 minutes EP and was a notable move away from her TF atmosphere both in terms of visuals and stage design. I thought artists had to clearly let their fans know what they should be expecting. Guess I caught you using two standards once again. What a shame.

Besides, everyone who had heard Bad Romance before those tickets went on sale obviously knew they weren't getting a TF rehash. Both the sound and the visuals were completely different. And before you start screaming: "See! They did know what it was gonna be like!", Formation knocks on the door to silence you.

Well, then I'm excited to see you demand all the unreleased songs and multiple music video's Gaga promised for ARTPOP in some other threads. Or didn't she just abandon every single release idea she hyped us with in 2012? Didn't she just let the app timer go off without saying a word? Didn't she release two perfumes she afterwards admitted she didn't want to release? Didn't she?

Where is her respect then? Even if you don't like Beyoncé (god knows I haven't liked her output until 2013) she DELIVERS for her fans and extremely frequently. After 18 years she is still on the cutting edge of what pop music can bring to the table and now she's even bringing her fans 20x the visual treat fans of pop artists usually get. Yet you claim her to be a lazy fraud who is ripping off her fans with sub-par products. You cannot claim this is truthful and objective when you are still here stanning for Gaga, who you claim is an artist with artistic authenticity and can do no wrong. Hell, there's even a difference between selling your tickets in advance to your album! My goodness!

So now you're hopping from "SHE HAS NO AUTHENTICITY, SHE'S A BAD ARTIST!" to "SHE DOESN'T SELL! SHE'S A BAD ARTIST!". Hilarious. The fact that her experimental album doesn't sell as well as an album jam packed full of hits that have already dominated the radio for months should actually be a logical connection.

Well, technically you did, but you did say: "But, ironically, the focus hasn't been completely on the music. It was on the videos for every song, the whole surprise of the thing. That's what was talked about more than the actual music by the public at large."

So obviously the reviews fit in there too. Besides, I just don't have the intellectual non-capacity to take the "they were overexcited because of the fact that there were visuals" argument seriously. You can't back that up with anything, so that's just your own opinion with no objective foundation, which you claim is the case for these posts.

That's funny, I hate the video's and I think the album is a masterpiece. Guess we don't all have the same opinion as you, how shocking. Maybe I'm an anomaly who doesn't respond to the automatic law of "when you have visuals, you automatically think the music is better because of the eventful mix of it all". In fact, I couldn't even get through the album without at least 10 listening sessions because it was so long and not at all an easy listen. Complete deviation from what she usually does (just the standard structure Gaga still uses in all her songs), so it was actually difficult to get into but extremely rewarding when you note all the details, the lyrical value of each song, and the flow of the thing. Which, surprise, is exactly what the reviews noted as well.

I don't even think I watched any of the video's more than once, and most of them I didn't even watch halfway through. I also find it quite unbelievable that every critic who reviewed the album saw those video's at all. In many reviews they're only referred to without being described, and I think the reviews had to come through so quickly due to the fact that it was a surprise release, that I find it a bit unbelievable that the reviews are all built on the experience of watching them. But whatever, it's overrated yada yada.

If video's are such a great distraction tool, then I guess all video's for every single ****ing single release is a distraction tool, especially when you make an 11-minute video about a 3 minute song that's essentially about partying and not wanting someone to call you 'cause you're having fun at the club. And don't give me "but the video was artistic and innovative" 'cause it was essentially a rehash of what she did for Paparazzi and Bad Romance. She's betrayed, someone gets killed, product placement, product placement, product placement. And nudity. But no, you're talking about a fleshed out visual album/short film and calling it a lazy distraction to make money. K gurl.

First off, the album uses a gazillion (interestingly chosen) samples, the writers of which are all credited. We know she uses writing camps but we also know she obsesses about every single instrument (confirmed by Sia who hates writing for her for that reason), so yawn.

Again: double standard. Gaga literally sang over an instrumental she just bought and changed a few details to. 8 writers for Applause. Again, double standard. They're both very involved in their product (Gaga obviously more in terms of the build-up, even though we know she can also just take a finished production and just write over it) so I don't see any good reason to paint Beyoncé as some lazy non-artist. When we compare any pop artist to someone like Grimes who writes and produces an entire (pop) album on her own, they're both lazy scammers. So where are you then?

I have looked it up.. ARTPOP and I Am... Sasha Fierce got the exact same Metacritic score minus one point (61 and 62 respectively) and similar reviews: basic, boring, no real emotion, just repeating tricks, yawn; and 4 was well received in theory but did receive a backlash from many of the casual fans.

Again, easy to say, harder to explain. Skip the bs and just finally come out with your personal opinion instead of bringing out all this extra crap to somehow convince yourself and others (not working) that your opinion is not a subjective one. God.

lmao come on. Destiny's Child was not even ever acclaimed, and their last album (which came out after Dangerously in Love) was bashed. And if you're seriously gonna claim that "long ago" is 2003 So no, nobody agrees with your assessment that Beyoncé's oldest stuff is the best (which isn't a case you can make for any legend either btw) and, again, you haven't explained why Beyoncé's "modern" (bitch pls) stuff is subpar. I mean, I personally can't even understand anyone agreeing with that ludicrous idea, but I can respect someone's opinion about that perfectly when they simply state why and leave it at that, not this "my opinion is based on facts and everyone says so except the critics and the entire fanbase, but whatever I'm still gonna pretend it's true" bs. So petty and unnecessary.

And this isn't enough You spend nearly half a page on explaining why Beyoncé is a fraud who rips off her fans with some sort of imaginary strategies and then you devote a sad two sentences on the actual core of the matter: I don't like her work.

Guess what, the critics think there are no fillers on her recent albums and you can sure believe that the majority of listeners agree. And how are Beyoncé and Lemonade not R&B and soul inspired?

Well, wonder in silence instead of using very biased and sometimes just wrong information to pretend your opinion is more important. I wonder what people see in Dangerously in Love and pretty much every album pre-Beyoncé but I remember there's such a sing as subjective taste. I think you are blowing everything hugely out of proportion.

And I also think you need to pay some serious attention to Beyoncé's last two new records. If you're a Lana fan and you like Ultraviolence and Honeymoon, I don't see why you can't appreciate Beyoncé and Lemonade. After all, Lana deviated massively from Born to Die and focused more on atmosphere, more evocative production and less on pop format and radio friendliness. Why can't you make the connection? I don't understand it. Unless you're a Born to Die stan

 

But me after reading all this 

 

But I love how thorough u are 💚

[StrawberryBlond 14,458]

5 hours ago, Didymus said:

 

Long essay.

You really don't need to explain this much. From someone who frequently makes long posts, I'd urge you to tone it down.

Of course the strategy isn't the exact same, but it's extremely similar. Both albums dropped suddenly. The only difference is that Lemonade technically had a single but it was extremely hard to get hold of and if you hadn't watched the SB, you wouldn't have had a clue. Lemonade also had somewhat of an announcement beforehand, so we could prepare ourselves whereas Beyonce dropped completely out the blue. But that's it. Both full albums dropped at once, both completely visual album. The only difference being that one had a continuous video. These were necessary little changes that Beyonce made to stop it being completely the same as last time. But I don't know what new angle she'll spin for the next album. And of course she did a promo trail before the album, that was the whole idea behind the Beyonce love-in that occured around her SB headlining set. She did everything except release new music so that by the time the new album rolled around, everyone would be here for it. Yes, I know why she did Beyonce songs last minute. My only question is why she didn't devote more time of the tour to the new album. Initially, I wondered if the Formation tour was still going to heavily promote the last album, since America didn't see much of it (no, On The Run doesn't count, it's a completely different show and it's co-headlined with Jay, which might have put her fans off from seeing it). And yes, I do think the co-headlining tour was unnecessary as there was no duets album they had released - it was nothing but pure greed and trying to get new fans by leeching off each other's fanbases. One of the most pointless and transparent tours there has ever been.

And because her new material isn't radio friendly, she's afraid of flopping, hence, not even making them singles. And just because something is critically acclaimed doesn't mean it'll be a hit. Ok, so XO sold 1.5 million. Does the whole world know the song? No. Does the whole of America even know the song? No. Regardless of how a song sells, if no one but the fans remembers it, it's nothing but a fan hit. And I know what Drunk In Love achieved (and the fact Jay was on it was the biggest plus, it's well known that females can struggle to get hits without male rap features - see how many of Rihanna's songs needed a feature to become hits). But it's not been long enough to determine if it's one of her most defining hits. I know only her fans and music critics really know of it. It can be pointless trying to tell a Beyonce fan that not all her material is widely known. They seem to think everything she does is legendary. I can only name 6 songs that most of the public could recognise from Beyonce in all these years. I once heard Beyonce fans talk about how Countdown had massive impact. On what planet?

Like I said above, Lemonade isn't bothering with singles because none of them could smash. Beyonce's had a problem with getting hits before now (she's lucky if she gets one hit per album nowadays) so she's decided to just throw the towel in almost completely in order to make herself look like she's not flopping. Well, a non-traditional release becomes a safe move if it works out the first time and you keep doing it, which is what Beyonce did. The same way that one hit wonders get their hit with an experimental song, so their next single sounds like a re-hash of it, in the hopes of getting the same success. That turns experimental into safe. It's the same strategy. "People like them, let's make more of them" is the battle cry in media and marketing today. By doing the thing that was once considered a risk over and over, you ironically become less challenging. Most artists who do an alternative release (a free album, a 2 song album, an album with no title, etc). only do it once then never again. Because you can only do each individual trick once to get a good effect. Do it again and you become redundant. Beyonce may be laughing on the way to the bank now but she may regret all this "album all at once and no singles" move in years to come when the public struggle to remember anything she released post 2013 because there were no proper singles to properly define the era for the public at large and that's how the public remember the albums. Weird releases don't go on to be remembered, I find. Tradition is the way to go.

Besides, if you're so harsh on Beyoncé, what about Lana? Where are her singles? Where are her music video's for every song? Didn't you call Beyoncé lazy? What does that make Lana who won't even go on tour to promote her album? Beyoncé did three tours in three years and released two solo albums in the same timespan. And even if you bring the "yeah, but she doesn't have to write the albums" argument, I won't ask your opinion about how lazy it is to do three tours in three years and be on set to shoot 27 music video's in that same time period. 'cause I don't think you're delusional enough to seriously call that lazy.

What do you mean, where are Lana's singles? She's made 3 videos for songs from Honeymoon. I don't need music videos for every song. That doesn't define being lazy. And Lana has apparently announced a tour supporting Honeymoon. I never called Beyonce lazy when it came to touring and shooting music videos. I said she was lazy when it came to songwriting. I don't know if you've noticed but I'm all about the music. The videos and touring are just nice appetisers, not the main course. When you're a singer/artist, your #1 priority should be making good music and improving your musical abilities, not videos and touring. As much as I would miss it, I'd rather get a perfect album from Gaga every time than a tour with every album. I'd rather get 5 perfect music videos for 5 perfect singles than get 14 music videos for every song on the album, even the mediocre ones. The music is the #1 priority and a place where I will not accept slacking. And Beyonce gets a LOT of help to write. Maybe she should drop the other stuff and focus on becoming a more involved writer of her own bodies of work. Gaga works hard on every aspect of her career, Beyonce works hard on just 2 elements of it these days. It's weird because her old material actually has less writers than it does now. I guess she's so busy with all the other visual stuff that she's let songwriting slide. Look at how involved she was in every release - look how few co-writers she had all these years. Now look at Lemonade's credits. One of these things is not like the others. What happened?

So what where the 3 new songs? Standing On The Sun, Grown Woman and what? Why didn't you name them? Are you talking about the beginning part of Flawless that originally called Bow Down/I Been On that leaked before the album release? If so, that doesn't count - it's a teeny little interlude and part of a bigger song later. And of course her H&M campaign counts - if it's a new song, it's a new song, as is Grown Woman from the Pepsi ad. Yes, a remix for the platinum edition of Beyonce. A remix. For a platinum edition (of which Beyonce usually releases every album). Irrelevant. More like she was just desperate for something to fill the tracklist with, seeing as she only released 2 new songs. And you're seriously comparing this to the likes of Glitter and Grease, Living On The Radio and Princess Die? Are you serious? TFM was already released when she perfomed G&G and she said LOTR was just a random track that wasn't going to make the album. And BTW was already out when she sang Princess Die and again made it clear that it was "unlikely to be on my next album but I wanted to share it with you anyway." This is the kind of thing real artists do. They write songs all by themselves that get rejected by their labels, so they give it as a present to their fans live, so they can capture the moment forever, even if it never gets an official release. That's not who Beyonce is - every song she makes is orchestrated by a team and she never writes on her own, meaning there are no hidden gems that she would have loved to release but wasn't allowed to.

No, it wasn't obvious at all. The promo trail for 4 had ended a long time ago and the public had moved on, so the fans logically concluded that it was too much of a gap to start touring with it, so it must be supporting new as-of-yet-unreleased material. I mean, 4's last single was released on April 23, 2012. The first date of Mrs Carter didn't begin until April 13, 2013. Who waits a whole year to tour after the final single? Fans just say it was because she was pregnant but in that case, why bother with a tour at all? By the sounds of what Jay said on Glory about the miscarriage pre-Blue, it sounds like Beyonce didn't know when this baby was going to come along, so it wasn't like she planned to release 4 and then get pregnant. I don't know about you, but after I'd just had a baby, I wouldn't want to tour immediately afterwards with an album that was a year old that the public had moved on from. Mrs Carter wasn't a tour for 4 that got delayed due to pregnancy - it was all part of a scheme to get people to love Beyonce again by singing a whole bunch of her old stuff as well as songs from 4. If it was for 4, she'd have performed all the songs and bonus tracks but she didn't. For a 15 track album (including bonuses), only singing 8 songs from it was pretty poor.

The length between Beyonce's albums is not "remarkably short," - she takes 2.5 - 3 years between albums and she can write and record in between touring legs. That's not short, that's the average time between albums across the board. And notice how you didn't bring up the other names that I discussed, Bon Jovi and Kate Bush, because you're so determined to paint me as only criticising Beyonce when in reality, I criticise anyone using this "secretive tour" model? I don't like it when artists treat the public like they're stupid and like they'll accept anything without question, so I think it's important that we let these artists know that we run the show. If they want our money, we need details. You wouldn't buy anything else is life without knowing what you're getting for the money, would you? Why is buying a concert ticket any different?

The stuff people were complaining about Gaga not delivering was stuff related to the app and so on, which didn't concern me. And I enjoyed the tour immensely but maybe the budget was cut somewhat because the album didn't sell as well as hoped? I don't mind if her arrangements and choreography is the same for her old hits - she's not been around so long that she needs to rework them. And Iike I said before, touring comes second for me, it's the music I live for. I don't care how dance-tastic Beyonce's tours are unless she's singing good music during them. I've already said that she's not lazy when it comes to touring, just lazy at songwriting. For the record, if Beyonce added an 8 track release onto her current one and continued with the same tour, or did what Gaga did with TFM/MB, I wouldn't criticise her. Because that is a different matter and it's well established that your audience will continue to support you whatever new material you release to add on to it. So, I'm not applying different standards at all. But taking over 2 years between albums, starting over from scratch with a completely new album that your fans have never heard and making them pay for tickets before they hear it? That is bad.

Gaga does respect her fans but her label has the final say. The fans get what the label allows them to get. If they say no more singles, no more music videos, no tour, whatever, the artist just has to do it. That's the place Gaga was in and she was very lucky that she even got a tour, all things considered. It's not like it's Gaga's choice to not deliver on promises, it's all the label's fault. But Beyonce is not like that - she was managed by her dad and now her husband and is partly signed to her own independent label. This grants her career freedoms that Gaga does not have. Let's not pretend that Gaga hasn't wanted to do a music video for every track since the beginning. But her label was clearly saying no. She has plenty of freedoms due to being the primary songwriter, composer and visionary for her work but everything else is down to the label, just like most artists. Beyonce has more freedom and that's why she always does exactly what she wants and delivers on her promises and if you can't see that, then who's the biased one now?

I didn't say "She doesn't sell, she's a bad artist." Where did you get that idea from? I merely pointed out that her fans saying everyone was buying the album and the whole world knew these songs is false.

Yes, when I said "the public at large," I was referring to exactly that, not the critics. The critics and the public are 2 different things. I mean what I say, I don't imply. Of course my opinion about being overexcited at the visuals is exactly that. I didn't say I have facts to back up every opinion I have. People really like to put words into my mouth, don't they?

Well, if you think the album is great without the videos, then good for you. But you might be one of the few seeing as most people say the exact opposite - that they can't listen to the album without the videos. Which I think is very telling. Also, several listens to note the details, flow, lyrical value? Seriously? It's a very basic album, nothing much to be revisited. There were only 2 tracks that I went back to after one complete listen-through in order to validate my original feelings and analyse them a bit more.

Yes, all music videos act as distraction, even Gaga's. I don't even like Telephone, but the video makes it easier for me to get through for the simple reason on story and distraction.

Yes, I realise that the sampled writers must be credited, but a writer's still a writer. Doesn't matter what the context is.

TIHTY is a one off thing. It likely won't happen again. I was just glad she had the chance to win an Oscar for something, even if it wasn't her best and I'm not afraid to admit that. And there are so many co-writers on Gaga's songs because unlike everyone else, she credits everyone. She credits people who change one word. She credits sound engineers. She credited RedOne on Gypsy even though he played no part in it because she was reminded of one of their productions when she wrote the song. She'd probably credit the guy who brought the refreshments if she could. Everyone who's ever worked with her say how amazing she is with credits and how she does it for everyone, even if they insist their role wasn't big enough and that no one else is like her with this generosity. I sometimes fear that people look at Gaga's credits and just assume she writes something here and there when in reality, it's 95% her, as verified by all her team.

Metacritic is one site, it doesn't account for much (and their eventual score is always off anyway as the actual review is not the score that Metacritic reports it as - they always go higher than what is. I've seen 3/5 reviews get listed as 60% instead of 50% on Metacritic, what's with that?). I judge the reception by the 10 individual critics scores listed on Wikipedia. By the way, Wiki removed Slant's review of Lemonade and I'm sure it was just a coincidence that it was the lowest score. And no, Sasha Fierce got better reception than AP. Based on the Wiki review listings, SF got a B+, a B, a B-, a 3.5/5, a 5.7/10, three 3/5's, a 4/10 and a 2.5/5. AP got a B, two 3.5's, two 6/10's, a 2.5/4, three 3/5's and a C-. So, very close, yes, but Beyonce edged it with three B's of some variety whereas Gaga just had one. Overall, SF got good critical reception outside of critic scores too. It won 5 Grammys out of 8 nominations and AP didn't even get so much as a nomination. Beyonce also won a ton of other awards for that album whereas Gaga was lucky to even get nominations. Yes, 4 did get a backlash from casual fans, but we're not talking about them, this is about the critics.

2003 was 13 years ago. That's only "not long ago" to a historian. And I meant "modern" as in "what she's making today." I said that her debut was her best, that's it. 4 her second best, Lemonade her third best, Beyonce her fourth best. And there's a gnat's wing of a difference between them. I have explained why some of her work is sub-par before. It has bad beats - that's the biggest problem. And they can sound irritating (the production on Diva actually makes me feel physically seasick and her chorus vocals sound like she's got a cold "ubba hustler, ubba ubba hustler"). From her last 2 albums, I'd say her worst songs were Blow (awful disco beats and lyrics that are not Beyonce at all), No Angel (terrible vocals on the verses, Hold Up (terrible beat), Sorry (awful genericism all round) and Formation (a contender for the worst track she's ever released for ego and misuse of social issues). I judge albums by how many good tracks there are out of the tracklist, however long that may be and the quality of each track. Her debut has the best ratios. It's that simple. I never said my opinion was law. I only apply facts when talking about other stuff.

No, I just summed up in a nutshell why I thought her debut was her best, like you asked me to do. The rest of my time was devoted what I think of her marketing strategies. I never claimed it was anything else.

And the critics have their opinions and I have mine. And I never said her last 2 albums weren't RnB and soul inspired. That's why I said that these 2, 4 and her debut are her best, unlike the pop deviations with B'day and SF.

I have a right to state my opinion, thank you. I won't "wonder in silence." I don't pretend my opinion is more important, I just like to offer up a different point of view that the crowd like to drown out and see if, with evidence, people can understand a bit more. I can go into an indepth musical analysis of each track, but not today. When was the last time you listened to Dangerously In Love? If its been a while, go back and listen. Naughty Girl, Baby Boy, Be With You, Speechless and Gift From Virgo are my ultimate favourites.

I can appreciate Beyonce and Lemonade...as ok albums, nothing more. No, I don't think they're anywhere near the level of quality that Lana has in her music. They're polar opposite artists, how can you compare them? Indeed, Lana deviated from BTD with a moody record with rock inspirations and then went for another new sound with Honeymoon, all masterpieces in their own way. There's good non-radio friendly songs and bad non-radio friendly songs, you know. Alternative means different things to different people. Plus, Lana creates masterpieces almost completely on her own, unlike Beyonce. And she was always about atmosphere and production in her music, that never changed, it was just different production. BTD is my favourite album from her but all her albums are perfect in different ways.

Now, can you make a more condensed rebuttal without making me work on a reply for hours? This is exhausting!

[Didymus 34,379]

@StrawberryBlond

Again, 100% opinion, backtracking or ignoring of things I already countered. This is a waste of my time, quite honestly, especially when you get a sneer about how your posts are too long (which is only the case because you continue to make false claims which I want to address in detail).

I repeated my points enough for people to see where I was going, so I'm satisfied with such that conclusion. You continue on connecting your personal opinion to Beyoncé's career moves. If that makes you feel smarter than the people who enjoy her latest work, people you represent as nothing more than deceived sheep, then I applaud you for deceiving yourself so effortlessly.

Enjoy the Formation World Tour's success.

[Good Meets Bad 55]

It took Beyonce three years as well to make another album so that's not the case 

[FGGrayson 9,670]

well, i always thought Beyoncé is overrated af, so... i wouldn't literally even care if she walks in front of me

[gagaisitalian 3,573]

Beyonce is until Lady Gaga steps up her game.

[fede ARTPOP 6,594]

GAGA will be bigger, shes a legend. One of a kind.

 

Beyonce is just Beyonce 

[holy scheisse 22,028]

Listen... 

ARTPOP was gaga's 4

we can expect gaga's beyonce and lemonade for lg5 and lg6

[Gilly 475]

anyone who thinks Gaga is a bigger superstar than BEYONCE is clearly not sane. 

[Katsuki Bakugo 9,788]

Gaga is a better performer, singer and writer. But she is not a better dancer or pop culture master. Bey's team and Bey herself (dancing) are. 

[Katsuki Bakugo 9,788]

Not @Didymus and @StrawberryBlond duking it out with those Thesis's on Bey's Career. Yet Didy delivered the t e a honey. 

[Caesium 6,022]

Not people writing essays when the answer is a simple "Beyoncé", no debate