Madonna pulls an 16 yo girl's top down at her Brisbane show

[Psychedelic 1,098]

8 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Yeah. Pulling someone means to kiss them, in a sexual way that is. I think Australians might use it too. I never liked the term. And pairing it with "slap on the ass" makes it even worse. You've basically just said: "This is the kind of girl who you would use as a sex object."

There is so much wrong with this, I don't even know where to begin. You're a guy. And a lot of guys don't seem to understand how women can be offended and why it hurts us so much. Let me get this straight - it's only wrong if it's a man doing it? How does that work out? Surely, anyone touching you without your permission is wrong? It's double standards but the only double standards people want to call out is the sleeping around idea, every other double standard is fine, apparently. The fact you don't see a woman exposing another woman as wrong is absolutely shocking. Being told to lighten up is something women deal with constantly in so many situations. It's a way of silencing us, telling us we're silly to feel emotion, being told by society to just put up with it. There is nothing lighthearted about exposing someone in public and it doesn't make you a prude for thinking so.

Now, I don't agree with the idea that pulling down men's pants is funny. I don't think anyone should be doing it, male or female. But at least it only exposes their underwear - it's not proper indecent exposure involving nudity. Plus, male nudity works different from female nudity. You can show male buttocks and have it be acceptable but for women, it's explicit. You don't find it embarrassing because men aren't taught to feel protected over certain areas like women are. Female bodies are a lot more "sacred" than male bodies, as it were. Maybe that's not right but the point is, it's how our society works. Exposing intimate parts of a woman's body is a serious thing and can be dealt with very seriously, so doing it for a joke could land you in serious trouble.

I really doesn't make any difference to me if the girl was ok with it or not. She's 17 - at her age, you can have a very uneducated view on how the world works and think something is ok but then change your mind about it later. I mean, I thought being overtly sexual helped feminism until I was 15 and got enlightened. And I also thought p*rn was fine until I was 18 and became enlightened. Our views can change rapidly at that age. She's young and full of fun and likely doesn't realise the implications of what happened and what this means for women at large by laughing it off. We need to make clear that this is unacceptable or it'll keep on happening. It's behaviour like this that make men believe they have a right to feel up a woman in a club or put their hands all over a stripper. Society teaches us that women's bodies are a free for all and it's just a bit of fun. It's not, it's humiliating and damaging.

I'm not gonna refute what you are saying, because what you're expressing is you opinion and point of view about this type of situation. But what I'm saying is that there is some other type of people who don't feel offended by this type of behaviours as long as it is developed in a jokingly manner. 

There are people who get offended by swear word, there people who say them all the time to each other without feeling offended, it's part of their lifestyles. It doesn't mean either are wrong or righ. PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT, different in the way they act and differentin they way they take others' acts!

But the specific situation her is that the girl Madonna brought up on stage was compeltely ok with what happened (which also happened to be an accidenatl action) So I don't understand why other peopel should feel offended if the person herlsef dind't feel offended! It sis pointless. Mind it when this happens to you.

[Snow 1,582]

8 hours ago, sursumd said:

A. This was not an accident. Madonna is very very very intelligent. She knew what she was doing and only made it sound like an accident after the fact so that she could play innocent. 

B. It doesn't matter if the girl was okay with having her body exposed or not. Madonna didn't care how the girl felt about it. Just another example of Madonna violating other people and making them out to be little more than disposable play things for her amusement. 

C. Madonnas constant attempts to keep herself in the limelight are very sad. All she does is play the media. Her actual artistic output these days gets no attention. This is why her career continues to be tainted for the last few years. Its getting worse and worse. 

Are you serous?! You are kidding right? -_-

[Snow 1,582]

10 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Problem is, we focus too much on one person's opinion on these matters. And we attribute it to the whole group that person belongs to. If you go online, the overwhelming consensus is that this was unacceptable behaviour. A million people saying it's wrong vs. one saying it's not...I think she's overruled. I hope this girl gives the reaction some food for thought. It's clear she doesn't know what's good for her. I mean, if she looks as old as she does at 17 and considering how she's dressed and posing on social media, she's probably done some things she shouldn't and grew up too fast.

I don't think my concept of morals, sexuality, feminism and nudity is weird at all. It's the rest of society who I think is weird for being so uncaring about dignity and keeping things private and people's feelings. I don't like how we have to live in a society that thinks you're weird for wanting sex to be private and for everyone to get treated with respect. I'm really not the prude you seem to think I am. I'm fully supportive of sexuality (would I be a Gaga fan if I wasn't?), I just think it should be kept private and any public forms of it should be kept classy. I am also a big believer in not reducing people to sex objects. That's all. I tend to put down my views very confidently because the "ultimate and one and only truth" as you put it, is that raunch is the way to go and that women are being ridiculous by protesting against it. It's hammered into us as the only way to be in modern society. I aim to tell people that there is another way.

And by the way, there's ways that public nudity can be no big deal. For example, if my bare breast rolled out accidentially in public, I'd pull it back in, laugh and see it as a funny story to tell later (and that has happened to me). But if someone pulled it down on purpose, without my permission, while people were in the process of filming the whole thing on camera, it would be one of the most humiliating, degrading experiences. Context and intention are so important. And for the record, I was sexually harassed for over a year at school and was so hesitant to report it, so that's why I encourage women to stand up when it happens to them and not be scared like I was. Also, do you have any idea of the amount of women who are sexually harassed, assaulted and raped every year and never tell anyone about it? I've got the statistics - it would shock you. We don't report it because we think it won't be taken seriously. And if women go on a public platform and proudly say that getting their top pulled down without their permission was a great experience, it only further extends the struggle to get women to report when something similar happens to them. I sometimes think men have no idea of the way women suffer in secret and how this stuff damages us. So many people claim to support feminism without really knowing what it means.

As I said, I respect your opinion and views on The matter and just kindly disagree, though you have some valid points as well. But regardless, let's be happy or at least content that The girl views it as a "best night of her life" and agree to disagree.

[LORD GAGA 1,271]

22 hours ago, QueenGadonna said:

Its actually 81 years for women.

71 is the average for men and woman combined. And still doesn't detract from my point, she's closer to the other end of the scale rather than the younger end.

[Killa 17,513]

Medoner and controversy are inseparable friends. I'm getting a feeling her next album might be really worthy. Or she's just really done and gone.

[Infinity Wave 7,635]

On 18 marzo 2016 at 5:18 AM, DiscoHeaven23 said:

 

You made my day ahahahahah

[QueenGadonna 298]

3 hours ago, LORD GAGA said:

71 is the average for men and woman combined. And still doesn't detract from my point, she's closer to the other end of the scale rather than the younger end.

Its 81 years for women and 76 years for men.

I know she is but I don't see why it matter what age she is.

[Pablo 7,829]

Wow, this is wrong on so many levels. Even if she was 18+ I would feel the same way.

[AJH219 4,448]

16 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Problem is, we focus too much on one person's opinion on these matters. And we attribute it to the whole group that person belongs to. If you go online, the overwhelming consensus is that this was unacceptable behaviour. A million people saying it's wrong vs. one saying it's not...I think she's overruled. I hope this girl gives the reaction some food for thought. It's clear she doesn't know what's good for her. I mean, if she looks as old as she does at 17 and considering how she's dressed and posing on social media, she's probably done some things she shouldn't and grew up too fast.

I don't think my concept of morals, sexuality, feminism and nudity is weird at all. It's the rest of society who I think is weird for being so uncaring about dignity and keeping things private and people's feelings. I don't like how we have to live in a society that thinks you're weird for wanting sex to be private and for everyone to get treated with respect. I'm really not the prude you seem to think I am. I'm fully supportive of sexuality (would I be a Gaga fan if I wasn't?), I just think it should be kept private and any public forms of it should be kept classy. I am also a big believer in not reducing people to sex objects. That's all. I tend to put down my views very confidently because the "ultimate and one and only truth" as you put it, is that raunch is the way to go and that women are being ridiculous by protesting against it. It's hammered into us as the only way to be in modern society. I aim to tell people that there is another way.

And by the way, there's ways that public nudity can be no big deal. For example, if my bare breast rolled out accidentially in public, I'd pull it back in, laugh and see it as a funny story to tell later (and that has happened to me). But if someone pulled it down on purpose, without my permission, while people were in the process of filming the whole thing on camera, it would be one of the most humiliating, degrading experiences. Context and intention are so important. And for the record, I was sexually harassed for over a year at school and was so hesitant to report it, so that's why I encourage women to stand up when it happens to them and not be scared like I was. Also, do you have any idea of the amount of women who are sexually harassed, assaulted and raped every year and never tell anyone about it? I've got the statistics - it would shock you. We don't report it because we think it won't be taken seriously. And if women go on a public platform and proudly say that getting their top pulled down without their permission was a great experience, it only further extends the struggle to get women to report when something similar happens to them. I sometimes think men have no idea of the way women suffer in secret and how this stuff damages us. So many people claim to support feminism without really knowing what it means.

I think my issue with your stance on this entire situation is that you're freaking out over how this will negatively impact the movement. I'm of the view point that it does not, its not even an issue worth examining as intensely as we have. If would 100% be on board with you if this was a stunt Madonna pulled at each concert, really!. This was clearly an accident and no one presently feels violated. Maybe she does feel embarrassed, maybe she is starstruck with her "five seconds of fame"; but we cannot speak for her nor should we. Remember Audre Lorde eloquently states "when we begin to live from within outward, in touch with the power of the erotic within ourselves, and allowing that power to inform and illuminate our actions upon the world towards use, then we begin to be responsible to ourselves in the deepest sense" (Conboy et al 281). That is how I arrive at my point of view. And just for the record, I know a lot about feminism thanks in no part to actually reading scholarship from the field...not spending my time cruising Tumblr. Thank you VERY much. 

 

[LUO YI 6,089]

OMG you act like you don't how is Madonna. Go with your values and your moral and watch the Prismatic World Tour.  

[HoeMoe 1,242]

On 3/18/2016 at 7:18 AM, DiscoHeaven23 said:

 

[Snow 1,582]

1 hour ago, AJH219 said:

I think my issue with your stance on this entire situation is that you're freaking out over how this will negatively impact the movement. I'm of the view point that it does not, its not even an issue worth examining as intensely as we have. If would 100% be on board with you if this was a stunt Madonna pulled at each concert, really!. This was clearly an accident and no one presently feels violated. Maybe she does feel embarrassed, maybe she is starstruck with her "five seconds of fame"; but we cannot speak for her nor should we. Remember Audre Lorde eloquently states "when we begin to live from within outward, in touch with the power of the erotic within ourselves, and allowing that power to inform and illuminate our actions upon the world towards use, then we begin to be responsible to ourselves in the deepest sense" (Conboy et al 281). That is how I arrive at my point of view. And just for the record, I know a lot about feminism thanks in no part to actually reading scholarship from the field...not spending my time cruising Tumblr. Thank you VERY much. 

 

Nicely said!

[StrawberryBlond 14,898]

12 hours ago, AcidPop said:

I'm not gonna refute what you are saying, because what you're expressing is you opinion and point of view about this type of situation. But what I'm saying is that there is some other type of people who don't feel offended by this type of behaviours as long as it is developed in a jokingly manner. 

There are people who get offended by swear word, there people who say them all the time to each other without feeling offended, it's part of their lifestyles. It doesn't mean either are wrong or righ. PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT, different in the way they act and differentin they way they take others' acts!

But the specific situation her is that the girl Madonna brought up on stage was compeltely ok with what happened (which also happened to be an accidenatl action) So I don't understand why other peopel should feel offended if the person herlsef dind't feel offended! It sis pointless. Mind it when this happens to you.

For a lot of people, it isn't a joke, though. Which is why we have to be careful how to conduct ourselves so that our behaviours aren't offensive to anyone who might think differently. Because one person thinks its no big deal, it doesn't follow that everyone else should accept that and move on. A lot of people who suffer sexual crimes shrug it off for multiple reasons but suffer behind a smile. Their words may say one thing but their inner emotions say another. This is why I doubt every woman who goes through something like this but claim it's nothing. We've all had to do that at some point or another. Most of us aren't happy with it but put up and shut up.

And come on, it wasn't an accident. Madonna didn't accidentially brush past the girl, causing her top to slip. That would have been halfway funny because of the context and I wouldn't be saying all this right now. But she deliberately pulled the top down. She only seemed to think it was wrong when she realised the girl wasn't wearing a bra underneath. What next? Pulling down a girl's skirt but it's only wrong if she was going commando? We need to stop thinking: "It's only wrong if it was taken to an extreme." No one has a right to put their hands on you, period, regardless of what the outcome is. And by the way, Madonna's only getting a free pass from you because she's a celebrity. If this happened between 2 civilians, you'd think differently, right? Well, I believe no one should get a free pass, I don't care how rich and famous you are. What kind of message does that send when a celebrity can do whatever they like to anyone they like and no one should make a fuss about it?

7 hours ago, Snow said:

As I said, I respect your opinion and views on The matter and just kindly disagree, though you have some valid points as well. But regardless, let's be happy or at least content that The girl views it as a "best night of her life" and agree to disagree.

Please take these valid points on board, though. They are vital for women to be made equal.

1 hour ago, AJH219 said:

I think my issue with your stance on this entire situation is that you're freaking out over how this will negatively impact the movement. I'm of the view point that it does not, its not even an issue worth examining as intensely as we have. If would 100% be on board with you if this was a stunt Madonna pulled at each concert, really!. This was clearly an accident and no one presently feels violated. Maybe she does feel embarrassed, maybe she is starstruck with her "five seconds of fame"; but we cannot speak for her nor should we. Remember Audre Lorde eloquently states "when we begin to live from within outward, in touch with the power of the erotic within ourselves, and allowing that power to inform and illuminate our actions upon the world towards use, then we begin to be responsible to ourselves in the deepest sense" (Conboy et al 281). That is how I arrive at my point of view. And just for the record, I know a lot about feminism thanks in no part to actually reading scholarship from the field...not spending my time cruising Tumblr. Thank you VERY much. 

Every little thing matters. The little things add up and become big things. Any woman will tell you that. Little pinpricks throughout our lives turn into a much bigger picture. There is no clear accident, see my post above. It worries me greatly that people are viewing this as an accident, especially when it would be looked at very differently if it was done by a non-celebrity. Madonna has daughters of her own, one whom is only 2 years older than this girl. By the sounds of how she raised her kids, she has double standards when it comes to her own children and would be appalled if they acted out. I can't understand how a mother with daughters could do such a thing and think it's funny. When you become a mother, how you look at sexuality tends to change and you realise how much societal views on it affect your children and you have an urge to protect your daughters. Whenever you see a woman, you start to think: "That's someone's little girl" and respect them in accordance with that idea. So, the fact that Madonna did all this despite being a mother of 2 daughters shocks me.

This quote doesn't mean much in regards to this situation. It basically means "be proud of your sexuality" (but defines ourselves by it a bit too much for my liking). This is completely different from a case of sexual assault. Yes, assault. And I never said you didn't read literature or spent your time on Tumblr, I mean that you can do all that and still not be quite aware of what it truly means to be feminist. Plenty of feminists can't see that they themselves are part of the problem (making fun of women, objectifying women, mistreating women, etc). Something that annoys me is how so many new feminists (particularly the male ones) have decided to focus purely on the sexual side of things. By that I mean, urging women to be sexual, being proud of sexuality, etc. That's all well and good but women have had those rights for years. Feminism is about fighting for rights we don't have, speaking up against injustice, keeping women safe. We won't achieve that by encouraging women to shake it all the time and not talk about sexual abuse and so on because that's scary and serious and might make people feel sad. Hello, this is the real issue at hand. And don't even get me started on all these women who grew up with Beyonce faux feminism, who think feminsim is all about being sassy and looking hot, nothing else. This is why feminism can't get anywhere - people don't take it seriously enough and don't want to talk about the real issues that are affecting women negatively.

[Ziggy 11,905]

On 3/18/2016 at 11:13 PM, helxig said:

Well at least it seemed like an accident and she said sorry, instead of just being a diva like she often does 

"I loathe hydrangeas." Favorite diva moment ever.

[Ziggy 11,905]

23 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Yeah. Pulling someone means to kiss them, in a sexual way that is. I think Australians might use it too. I never liked the term. And pairing it with "slap on the ass" makes it even worse. You've basically just said: "This is the kind of girl who you would use as a sex object."

There is so much wrong with this, I don't even know where to begin. You're a guy. And a lot of guys don't seem to understand how women can be offended and why it hurts us so much. Let me get this straight - it's only wrong if it's a man doing it? How does that work out? Surely, anyone touching you without your permission is wrong? It's double standards but the only double standards people want to call out is the sleeping around idea, every other double standard is fine, apparently. The fact you don't see a woman exposing another woman as wrong is absolutely shocking. Being told to lighten up is something women deal with constantly in so many situations. It's a way of silencing us, telling us we're silly to feel emotion, being told by society to just put up with it. There is nothing lighthearted about exposing someone in public and it doesn't make you a prude for thinking so.

Now, I don't agree with the idea that pulling down men's pants is funny. I don't think anyone should be doing it, male or female. But at least it only exposes their underwear - it's not proper indecent exposure involving nudity. Plus, male nudity works different from female nudity. You can show male buttocks and have it be acceptable but for women, it's explicit. You don't find it embarrassing because men aren't taught to feel protected over certain areas like women are. Female bodies are a lot more "sacred" than male bodies, as it were. Maybe that's not right but the point is, it's how our society works. Exposing intimate parts of a woman's body is a serious thing and can be dealt with very seriously, so doing it for a joke could land you in serious trouble.

I really doesn't make any difference to me if the girl was ok with it or not. She's 17 - at her age, you can have a very uneducated view on how the world works and think something is ok but then change your mind about it later. I mean, I thought being overtly sexual helped feminism until I was 15 and got enlightened. And I also thought p*rn was fine until I was 18 and became enlightened. Our views can change rapidly at that age. She's young and full of fun and likely doesn't realise the implications of what happened and what this means for women at large by laughing it off. We need to make clear that this is unacceptable or it'll keep on happening. It's behaviour like this that make men believe they have a right to feel up a woman in a club or put their hands all over a stripper. Society teaches us that women's bodies are a free for all and it's just a bit of fun. It's not, it's humiliating and damaging.

I agree with you except for the word use of the word "enlightened" as it sounds presumptuous and that there is one true opinion about this stuff. Some women (and men) *are* liberated by being overtly sexual, some aren't. There is a difference between ****ography and eroticism, but I think it's a line that is blurred way too often. When people say that someone expressing themselves sexually is ****ographic, or "slutty" (awful term), it's them denying that person the means of fully expressing themselves. Eroticism is the having the freedom of exploring your sexuality and how that manifests itself in your personality. ****ography is someone objectifying you and observing you in a sexualized manner. There's a difference there. *You* get to explore yourself in an erotic manner, *they* objectify you. It's a difference of power dynamics that I think is overlooked, but shouldn't be. All in all, I think with feminism it is a tricky thing to make large statements about what is good and bad for it when there is no consensus on that even among scholars. It all depends on the perspective you are approaching the situation from. Some feminists think we need to radicalize and overthrow the establishment while some think we can work within the system and make reforms. Both want to free women, but their approach to productive vs. unproductive feminism is going to be very different.

 

I'm not trying to attack you, but you do seem to have some good mind and some good feminist thoughts so I thought I'd open a dialogue