Gun Violence/Gun Control Discussion Thread

[ctherainbow 3,162]

1 hour ago, helxig said:

People are constantly getting murdered because of this free gun carrying business. This isn't an issue in other countries where they have gun control laws. People are DYING. That's all you need to know.

Would you care to elaborate on which countries/gun control laws you're referring to?

[NewYorkCity 10,536]

I live in a country with an absolute gun control.

I am 23 years old and I have never heard about a mass shooting. I haven't seen, listened or touched a gun in my life.

In fact, it is hard for me to think about someone being killed by a gun on the news.

So yeah, that's it.

[ctherainbow 3,162]

1 hour ago, Erich Johnson said:

America Warmongering industry funded all wars in this world... now civil war, ultra right country reflections, its all about captalism

This thread discussion is about gun violence on a personal level, not civil wars caused by other countries intervening, unless you'd like to draw a connection between those?

[ctherainbow 3,162]

36 minutes ago, amenvodka said:

I'm from a country were gun control is somewhat strict and I don't know anybody who died to a gun. The last mass shooting we had was 7 years ago, when gun regulations were less strict than they are now. The perpetrator was the son of a gun fanatic who willfully violated gun storation laws and left one open out for any of his family members to play with. To me, there's no big leap. Guns create violence and death.

Also to address this: I do not support my countries stance on exporting weapons. Especially the shady dealing of dictators and drug cartels obtaining federally supported German weapons to induce terror on innocent people. To me, the German government is complicit in a lot of cases of murder.

Are you from Germany?

And in the case you speak of, do you think that there should be some level of responsibility placed upon the father, who clearly was not responsible in his gun ownership?  I find it interesting that many people seem to pass over obvious poor gun education and bad parenting, which sadly plays a role in many of these tragedies, though obviously bad parenting doesn't put the gun in someone's hand.

[mmm 879]

1 hour ago, Nicole said:

I gotta say - and I am totally up for healthy discussion/debate with anyone in the US who may think differently - but as an outsider, looking at US gun policies, they just don't make sense to me? I feel like the Port Arthur massacre here in Australia was responded to so well that I honestly can't think of any other way to battle any gun problem. And I think people underestimate how much gun control was opposed when it was first introduced - politicians literally lost their careers for supporting it but look at us now. I understand completely that gun culture is massive in the US especially in its early history esp among hunting/self-defence etc, but the thing is - you don't live in that society anymore. Yes, many people still live in rural areas that may require owning a gun for hunting purposes but if you live in a city or suburb, I believe you don't need a gun. You have neighbours, you have knives, you have a phone. 

I think people lose faith in the thought of gun control because they think of the immediate repercussions of banning guns that people don't have a logical reason to own. But you've got to look at the big picture - the future and not just next week future, but 20, 30 years from now.

And the thing is, it's not going to eliminate gun crime. I'm not gonna pretend that Australia is the land of no guns and no gun crime. But I'd imagine that gun control in the U.S. will decrease at least some of it. It'd decrease random fatalities that are caught in the crossfire of random bullets, it'd decrease school boys/girls fetching their parents gun to take to school or god forbid a child finding a gun around without the safety lock on. If it takes more effort to get a gun, some people won't bother. I'm not saying that theoretical person won't commit a crime at all, but would you rather that someone stab one person 6 times, or attempt to shoot the person 6 times, killing/injuries 5 other people.

In saying all this, I feel like I'm looking at this issue from a commonness perspective which isn't the best way to look at it and being a criminal law student, I am very interested in comparing Australian/US law through further research at some point to draw a proper conclusion of my views.

In 1996, the Australian government introduced strict gun control legislation after a massacre in Tasmania. Firearm homicide declined sharply immediately afterwards, yet the overall homicide rates did not change at all until 2001 - the decline in crime since the beginning of the 21st century has been a worldwide phenomenon. Not surprisingly, as firearm use in homicide declined, the use of knives and other sharp objects increased.

As for the general topic of gun control, I made an argument in my last comment if your interested in a conversation on this subject. Also, here is a quote from my last comment that relates to what we are talking about in Australia.

"There is a reason why people are crazy psychopaths and we need to work on that instead of banning guns specially that statistic shows that when you ban guns, other kind of crimes goes up because banning guns wont stop murderers and crazy psychopaths to stop."

[ctherainbow 3,162]

40 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said:

If you are for gun control, then you are not against guns because the guns will be used to disarm people. You are very pro gun, you just believe that the government witch if of course so reliable, honest, moral and virtues should be allowed to have guns. There is no such thing as gun control, there is only centralizing gun ownership in the hands on a small political elite and their minions.

I support making it harder to get guns and train people how to be safe and use them but I am against gun control. I dont support any government to disarm its people from guns and I dont have to be forced to rely on cops to protect me that will arrive 15 minutes after im murdered in my home!

Also, gun control wont change anything as statistic shows many places that have high guns owners with extremely low crime rate unlike places with gun control. Free gun zones are always where shooters go so they dont get challenged. Just like how you cant control drugs in jail, you also cant control the reach of guns. There is a reason why people are crazy psychopaths and we need to work on that instead of banning guns specially that statistic shows that when you ban guns, other kind of crimes goes up because banning guns wont stop murderers and crazy psychopaths to stop.

If your interested into getting more into this topic and see the statistics and facts, I recommend you watch this video:
 

 

Do you live in an area where police protection/response times is an issue?

Also, the validity of the statistical analysis of this video concerns me, especially when he's comparing statistics from the District of Columbia, which is essentially just a city, versus states with large swaths of suburban and rural area, which statistically have lower homicide rates.

Personal Opinion:  I'm taking what this guy says with many grains of salt; he has another video that suggests that producing and raising children is the main goal of a marriage, which, though it doesn't automatically negate any other points he might have... is still very suspect to me.   

[Supersonic 49,376]

30 minutes ago, ctherainbow said:

Are you from Germany?

And in the case you speak of, do you think that there should be some level of responsibility placed upon the father, who clearly was not responsible in his gun ownership?  I find it interesting that many people seem to pass over obvious poor gun education and bad parenting, which sadly plays a role in many of these tragedies, though obviously bad parenting doesn't put the gun in someone's hand.

Yeah I am. I do think the father is at fault as well, the legal system seems to agree with me. He got one and a half years in prison for negligent manslaughter in 15 cases. Which tbh seems like a pretty mild punishment to me.

[Roomingfree77 244]

Cain killed his own Brother Abel with a rock, it is not the weapon it is the mentality of the person holding the weapon

 

 

[ctherainbow 3,162]

Just now, amenvodka said:

Yeah I am. I do think the father is at fault as well, the legal system seems to agree with me. He got one and a half years in prison for negligent manslaughter in 15 cases. Which tbh seems like a pretty mild punishment to me.

Only one and a half years?  Yikes!  I would have certainly hoped for more punishment than that; obviously the son committed the crime, but only one and a half years on 15 counts is crazy.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Germany, though seen as a very strong European country, is somewhat pacifist on a societal level since the hell you went through in the many European wars, including the World Wars.  So living in a largely deweaponized country, where your society is acutely aware of how much destruction can be caused by weapons, I'm curious to know if you know anyone or have any friends who use firearms on a recreational basis, in a responsible manner?  

I think it's interesting that many people in the US can't imagine what it would be like to not have access to guns for recreation, while many people from countries with more strict gun control/different gun culture can't imagine what it would be like, and it would be interesting to contrast those two viewpoints.

[ctherainbow 3,162]

1 hour ago, NewYorkCity said:

I live in a country with an absolute gun control.

I am 23 years old and I have never heard about a mass shooting. I haven't seen, listened or touched a gun in my life.

In fact, it is hard for me to think about someone being killed by a gun on the news.

So yeah, that's it.

Would you mind sharing where you're from?

And just out of curiosity, since you've never seen or touched a gun in person in your life, would you be interested at all in participating in a sport like skeet shooting or competitive range shooting?  And do you see guns as tools for recreation at all, or as weapons for killing people?  I'm just trying to get a feel for how people from around the world view guns and their uses.

[NewYorkCity 10,536]

1 minute ago, ctherainbow said:

Would you mind sharing where you're from?

And just out of curiosity, since you've never seen or touched a gun in person in your life, would you be interested at all in participating in a sport like skeet shooting or competitive range shooting?  And do you see guns as tools for recreation at all, or as weapons for killing people?  I'm just trying to get a feel for how people from around the world view guns and their uses.

I am from Spain.

Nah, I wouldn't be interested in that tbh. But just like I am not interested into playing football you know, there may be people who may like it, idk. I seriously don't know anyone who is interested, but it is normal since it's not something that is in our culture...

As for using them as ools for recreation.. well, there may be people who like it. They could have closed spaces to use them with control and without owning them tho... But they are also tools for killing people, you don't have to see them one way or another, both uses are possible.

The only people who use them here are haunters, and they have a lot of controls to get the lisence and also to use them.

 

 

[Supersonic 49,376]

2 minutes ago, ctherainbow said:

Only one and a half years?  Yikes!  I would have certainly hoped for more punishment than that; obviously the son committed the crime, but only one and a half years on 15 counts is crazy.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Germany, though seen as a very strong European country, is somewhat pacifist on a societal level since the hell you went through in the many European wars, including the World Wars.  So living in a largely deweaponized country, where your society is acutely aware of how much destruction can be caused by weapons, I'm curious to know if you know anyone or have any friends who use firearms on a recreational basis, in a responsible manner?  

I think it's interesting that many people in the US can't imagine what it would be like to not have access to guns for recreation, while many people from countries with more strict gun control/different gun culture can't imagine what it would be like, and it would be interesting to contrast those two viewpoints.

Well I'm from the countryside (which is always more conservative) and I know of marksmen clubs and I know some of my peers there do enjoy hunting and guns for recreational purposes. There's still a big lobby for gun fanatics and gun manufacturers. I don't happen to mesh well with those people thoough, especially since a lot of their world views are very backwards and ignorant imo, so I don't have any friends who are into guns. But aquaintances certainly. Younger people tend to me more liberal towards gun control (especially men), probably driven by the huge American influence via the entertainment industry and video games.

Paintball is very popular among young males as well. A lot of my former friends used to go to the Czech Republic for playing paintball because the allow minors to play there (legal age for that in germany is 18).

[mmm 879]

1 hour ago, ctherainbow said:

Do you live in an area where police protection/response times is an issue?

Also, the validity of the statistical analysis of this video concerns me, especially when he's comparing statistics from the District of Columbia, which is essentially just a city, versus states with large swaths of suburban and rural area, which statistically have lower homicide rates.

Personal Opinion:  I'm taking what this guy says with many grains of salt; he has another video that suggests that producing and raising children is the main goal of a marriage, which, though it doesn't automatically negate any other points he might have... is still very suspect to me.   

Police protection/response is an issue everywhere in the world.. if a man enters a woman's home to rape or kill her, it is impossible for police to be there on time. If you want to rely on cops to protect you, thats fine but thats not who I want to protect me specially when we all know how cops are and specially if im a black person. Saudi Arabia, where im from has an extremely high gun rate and people can actually have illegal guns yet the gun shooting rate is low. 

In Paris, hundreds of people were killed by two men for more than 30 minutes waiting for cops to show up. The Oregon school shooting had strict gun control laws (witch is why the shooter traveled to shoot in that location) and because of gun control laws, the security could not protect the students and had to lose his life and 10 victims had to die while waiting for the cops, a retired cop close to school heard about the news and reached the location before the cops but was not allowed to enter with his gun because of strict gun laws so the school students had to be shot until the cops showed up.

How does someone believing that marriage is done to raise children make you suspicious about someone? do you mean because he might be against gay marriage? he actually supports gay marriage and LGBT rights. Also, in the video, he talked about many other things like how other kind of crimes increase when you force gun control and homicide death crimes rate does not change at all. If you have a criminal in a room and he has the choice of using a gun or a knife, he will use the gun but if you remove the gun, it wont change the fact that he will still kill you with the knife.

Like I said before, people who support gun control are actually pro gun.

[Luiz 4,253]

2 hours ago, Nicole said:

I gotta say - and I am totally up for healthy discussion/debate with anyone in the US who may think differently - but as an outsider, looking at US gun policies, they just don't make sense to me? I feel like the Port Arthur massacre here in Australia was responded to so well that I honestly can't think of any other way to battle any gun problem. And I think people underestimate how much gun control was opposed when it was first introduced - politicians literally lost their careers for supporting it but look at us now. I understand completely that gun culture is massive in the US especially in its early history esp among hunting/self-defence etc, but the thing is - you don't live in that society anymore. Yes, many people still live in rural areas that may require owning a gun for hunting purposes but if you live in a city or suburb, I believe you don't need a gun. You have neighbours, you have knives, you have a phone. 

I think people lose faith in the thought of gun control because they think of the immediate repercussions of banning guns that people don't have a logical reason to own. But you've got to look at the big picture - the future and not just next week future, but 20, 30 years from now.

And the thing is, it's not going to eliminate gun crime. I'm not gonna pretend that Australia is the land of no guns and no gun crime. But I'd imagine that gun control in the U.S. will decrease at least some of it. It'd decrease random fatalities that are caught in the crossfire of random bullets, it'd decrease school boys/girls fetching their parents gun to take to school or god forbid a child finding a gun around without the safety lock on. If it takes more effort to get a gun, some people won't bother. I'm not saying that theoretical person won't commit a crime at all, but would you rather that someone stab one person 6 times, or attempt to shoot the person 6 times, killing/injuries 5 other people.

In saying all this, I feel like I'm looking at this issue from a commonness perspective which isn't the best way to look at it and being a criminal law student, I am very interested in comparing Australian/US law through further research at some point to draw a proper conclusion of my views.

i stopped reading here to say something

i dont even get into this discussion because i know my view is kinda skewed by where i live and my experience isnt the one that should win out over the entire country but if you lived where i live and heard all the sirens and gunshots at night. if you've been robbed before and had seen how they beat the crap out of your neighbor nearly killing her i'd say you'd have a legit reason to want own a gun. if you lived in a neighborhood full of gangbangers and sleezy drug dealers then you'd want some protection so i'd ask everyone here when you are getting that image in your head of the average US gun owner please dont just think of the middle america gun nut wanting to shoot squirrels in his backyard. instead think of the single  mother maybe having to raise her kids as a single parent in a poor neighborhood surrounded by gangbangers/criminals. she might want a gun for her and her family's safety and its not like she can rely on the police with their slow reaction time and lbr if someone breaks into your house and you wake up to a gun in your face, you arent going to be able to call anyone before they pull the trigger. cops respond to the rich neighborhoods in their fast and furious cars but if they get a call from the ghetto they take the ****ing flintstones police cars  

 

now i cant tell the future so i dont REALLY know what the outcome of banning guns would be and as i've said before, its very possible that it could have a good outcome but i do believe there will be big issues in the beginning. our crime out here is crazy and at this point people in the ghetto feel they need some kind of protection with how the gang and drug culture has evolved to the point where killing someone is so accepted out here as just the way people take care of business. the immediate issues are obvious with how gangsters would have more power over the average citizen. if you dont live near gangsters maybe you just cant relate to the fear of living next to so many people that are willing to flat out murder you if you look at them wrong but its a real thing in some places. 

the black market for guns will be insane if they're banned and who would be the people most willing to take risks and break the law? poor people of course, the majority of which i bet are POC. so that whole disparity in how many black or latino people are filling our prisons compared to white inmates will only get worse with even more POC being put into prison. it might have a similar effect to the war on drugs you know? 

its definitely going to be another cash cow for our neighboring countries' drug cartels from south america and such so they will profit big time and gain power big time. this would definitely give trump like ideas of a wall or stopping all immigration more weight. it could help close borders which depending on how you feel about immigrants can be a positive or negative  

we're going to be spending a lot of money to keep guns out of our country because were connected to poorer struggling countries in south america and we have a huge northern border to protect so this will probably cost a lot of money as well to keep them secure.

 

i think i'm biased here i mean it sucks to hear about your theaters being shot up or kids being killed in drive bys or teens shooting each other in poor areas and we hear nothing about a gun issue in america. then some white boy kills some people and all of a sudden were worried.  most of the gun violence in america isnt middle america children finding their dad's gun  or some crazy dude shooting up a school, its mostly gang violence that goes unnoticed by mainstream media. i wish there was as much outrage directed towards gangs as there is directed towards guns tbh. this has kinda given me an aversion to anti-gun sentiment because i think they only are taking into consideration the middle america gun nut and not ever thinking about us here with actual legit fears that make us want protection. its frustrating

 

now maybe we should weather the storm of negative immediate impact in order to create a much more peaceful future but the idea of banning them will still scare me but this isnt just about us here in poor areas. this is about everyone in the country and if this ban eventually happens i just hope they do it gradually  and dont just implement a prohibition type thing where the desire to own guns is still high and criminals are allowed to exploit that.

 

ok i think there was more to type but i need to stop getting distracted by the internet  

[Nicole 1,809]

9 hours ago, Luiz said:

i stopped reading here to say something

i dont even get into this discussion because i know my view is kinda skewed by where i live and my experience isnt the one that should win out over the entire country but if you lived where i live and heard all the sirens and gunshots at night. if you've been robbed before and had seen how they beat the crap out of your neighbor nearly killing her i'd say you'd have a legit reason to want own a gun. if you lived in a neighborhood full of gangbangers and sleezy drug dealers then you'd want some protection so i'd ask everyone here when you are getting that image in your head of the average US gun owner please dont just think of the middle america gun nut wanting to shoot squirrels in his backyard. instead think of the single  mother maybe having to raise her kids as a single parent in a poor neighborhood surrounded by gangbangers/criminals. she might want a gun for her and her family's safety and its not like she can rely on the police with their slow reaction time and lbr if someone breaks into your house and you wake up to a gun in your face, you arent going to be able to call anyone before they pull the trigger. cops respond to the rich neighborhoods in their fast and furious cars but if they get a call from the ghetto they take the ****ing flintstones police cars  

now i cant tell the future so i dont REALLY know what the outcome of banning guns would be and as i've said before, its very possible that it could have a good outcome but i do believe there will be big issues in the beginning. our crime out here is crazy and at this point people in the ghetto feel they need some kind of protection with how the gang and drug culture has evolved to the point where killing someone is so accepted out here as just the way people take care of business. the immediate issues are obvious with how gangsters would have more power over the average citizen. if you dont live near gangsters maybe you just cant relate to the fear of living next to so many people that are willing to flat out murder you if you look at them wrong but its a real thing in some places. 

the black market for guns will be insane if they're banned and who would be the people most willing to take risks and break the law? poor people of course, the majority of which i bet are POC. so that whole disparity in how many black or latino people are filling our prisons compared to white inmates will only get worse with even more POC being put into prison. it might have a similar effect to the war on drugs you know? 

its definitely going to be another cash cow for our neighboring countries' drug cartels from south america and such so they will profit big time and gain power big time. this would definitely give trump like ideas of a wall or stopping all immigration more weight. it could help close borders which depending on how you feel about immigrants can be a positive or negative  

we're going to be spending a lot of money to keep guns out of our country because were connected to poorer struggling countries in south america and we have a huge northern border to protect so this will probably cost a lot of money as well to keep them secure.

i think i'm biased here i mean it sucks to hear about your theaters being shot up or kids being killed in drive bys or teens shooting each other in poor areas and we hear nothing about a gun issue in america. then some white boy kills some people and all of a sudden were worried.  most of the gun violence in america isnt middle america children finding their dad's gun  or some crazy dude shooting up a school, its mostly gang violence that goes unnoticed by mainstream media. i wish there was as much outrage directed towards gangs as there is directed towards guns tbh. this has kinda given me an aversion to anti-gun sentiment because i think they only are taking into consideration the middle america gun nut and not ever thinking about us here with actual legit fears that make us want protection. its frustrating

now maybe we should weather the storm of negative immediate impact in order to create a much more peaceful future but the idea of banning them will still scare me but this isnt just about us here in poor areas. this is about everyone in the country and if this ban eventually happens i just hope they do it gradually  and dont just implement a prohibition type thing where the desire to own guns is still high and criminals are allowed to exploit that.

ok i think there was more to type but i need to stop getting distracted by the internet  

Of course gang violence is a real problem in the U.S, and I believe gun control won't help that at all - I agree with that, issues like that stem from inequality/poverty/isolation so in order to tackle that kind of gun violence would definitely require different methods. However, I feel that gun ownership is very much stemmed from the fear of crime. The media always stirs up how crime is at an all time high, how crimes against strangers are the most common and most likely to happen, prompting people to take measures to protect themselves when really, it's not as necessary as people believe especially in big cities. As for single mums in poor neighbourhoods you mentioned, I think there should be a focus on improving the support for them - not the government just assuming "oh they can get a gun it'll be fine" (I'm going by Australian statistics though, I'm not sure if the odds are exactly the same so I'd need to check up on that when I have time). I'd like to know, perhaps in the last 20 years, what percentage of gun owners have had to actually use their gun, grouped into cities/regions and that would give an indication of the extent poverty etc has on the need/desire/use for/of a gun. 

The reason theatre shootings/school shootings get more attention is the personal nature aspects of such crimes are towards people all around the world. We all went to school, many of us are theatre goers - people know of the standards of a school and a theatre and know that it's not supposed to be like that. Not everyone lives in areas populated by gangs or are affected by gang violence. I agree that there should be more attention on it, but it's the sad reality that the stereotypes of gangs makes people not care. 

I think I've come to realise that Australia's laws won't work in the U.S - one, because of the U.S. population, a buy-back policy as we had would simply not work. Also, the power the NRA has in the U.S. is disgusting, but I can't just pretend it's not there when thinking of solutions haha. I still do believe there needs to be some sort of policy - anything, honestly. Even if it's just a cap on the amount of guns someone or maybe a household is allowed to own would be a good start. But I think tackling issues of inequality, poverty and access to resources for disadvantaged groups (like single parent families as you mentioned) first - which could take god knows how long, would be beneficial in actually identifying issue surrounding guns and gun ownership

Ok I think that's all I wanted to say - such a complex topic I can never get my thoughts down in time haha.