giskardsb 12,565 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 13 minutes ago, Harry said: It's just banal that people genuinely think this way If what you're saying is right, what constitutes a "good" album? Who decides it? How do you prove that it is? You can't. Some opinions are based on truly subjective concepts. The fact that I prefer Goya over Matisse, or Jazz over Country music, is purely subjective. However, some people throw out stuff that is clearly not subjective and claim they can't be argued with because it's "opinion". Others claim a purely subjective opinion is fact in order to artificially strengthen their case. And yes, sometimes the lines are blurry, but that doesn't change that some opinions are in fact incorrect on a factual basis and the holders of those opinions are just completely wrong. Obviously, saying that ARTPOP was a "bad" album is completely subjective. A person may have their arguments for what makes it bad, but is will be based on certain values that are not universal. I happen to love much of ARTPOP, probably for some of the exact reasons somebody else hates it. In that case, nobody is right or wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Temptation 11,209 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 3 hours ago, Mast said: That doesn't mean it wasn't her weakest tho. Favorite =/= best. Her best effort was for sure TFM, but my favorite Gaga album is BTW. It is her weakest album because she was at the weakest point in her career. The album mirrors this perfectly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry 26,836 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, giskardsb said: You can't. Some opinions are based on truly subjective concepts. The fact that I prefer Goya over Matisse, or Jazz over Country music, is purely subjective. However, some people throw out stuff that is clearly not subjective and claim they can't be argued with because it's "opinion". Others claim a purely subjective opinion is fact in order to artificially strengthen their case. And yes, sometimes the lines are blurry, but that doesn't change that some opinions are in fact incorrect on a factual basis and the holders of those opinions are just completely wrong. None of this explains why someone saying they don't like ARTPOP is simply wrong. The reasons one might like or dislike ARTPOP, or any album, can of course be put up for discussion. That's why forums like these exist. And whilst someone might be able to justify their reasoning better than another, the basic good/bad opinion is purely subjective. You aren't going to change the mind of someone who dislikes ARTPOP by crying "YOU'RE WRONG HATER". And someone can't change my mind by telling me it's a trash album, because I like it (even though I find it to be her worst). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giskardsb 12,565 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, Harry said: None of this explains why someone saying they don't like ARTPOP is simply wrong. The reasons one might like or dislike ARTPOP, or any album, can of course be put up for discussion. That's why forums like these exist. And whilst someone might be able to justify their reasoning better than another, the basic good/bad opinion is purely subjective. You aren't going to change the mind of someone who dislikes ARTPOP by crying "YOU'RE WRONG HATER". And someone can't change my mind by telling me it's a trash album, because I like it (even though I find it to be her worst). I think we are are saying the same thing in circles, lol. I never said someone saying they don't like ARTPOP is wrong. It's subjective. It's also true that some of the users around here saying it's obvious that ARPOP is "bad" and calling other users delusional for liking it are also unclear on the fact that what we as individuals like in ART is subjective. Some people can probably list some "measurable" items that they claim makes ARTPOP a bad album, but if I don't agree on the weight of those "measurable" items, even if I agree that the measurements are valid, then I won't agree with the final conclusion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry 26,836 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, giskardsb said: I think we are are saying the same thing in circles, lol. I never said someone saying they don't like ARTPOP is wrong. It's subjective. It's also true that some of the users around here saying it's obvious that ARPOP is "bad" and calling other users delusional for liking it are also unclear on the fact that what we as individuals like in ART is subjective. Some people can probably list some "measurable" items that they claim makes ARTPOP a bad album, but if I don't agree on the weight of those "measurable" items, even if I agree that the measurements are valid, then I won't agree with the final conclusion. You quite literally said "this opinion is wrong" in reference to Elton John saying he doesn't like ARTPOP. 35 minutes ago, giskardsb said: this opinion is wrong ?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giskardsb 12,565 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, Harry said: You quite literally said "this opinion is wrong" in reference to Elton John saying he doesn't like ARTPOP. ?? now I get the confusion. I thought I was saying that Haroons opinion suggesting that there was no such thing as a wrong opinion, was in fact wrong. There can be wrong opinions of objective issues. Elton is perfectly entitled to whatever opinion he has on the subjective issue of ARTPOP, though I might disagree with him. Or maybe I'm just confusing things further. I'll just shut up now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djBuffoon 12,115 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 3 hours ago, Harry said: Not with a matter such as music that is entirely subjective. You think you're more informed than Elton John who has been active and successful in music longer than you've been alive though? @djBuffoon you too? I know you find it impossible to see a stance that is even slightly opposed to Gaga but you would describe Elton John as misguided? Problem is with you guys that you can't handle anyone saying ARTPOP isn't great lol. Anyone that doesn't feel the same is automatically wrong. There is too much mess and hyperbole in this post to even know where I'm starting. Would I describe Sir Elton as being misguided? In general, I don't believe so. Am I very, very curious to hear why he thinks the album is "not good"? Oh, yes. Quentin Tarantino called Scream a bad horror movie recently. Now he is one of my favorite filmmakers, but his reasoning against the movie was - to me - absolutely bogus. Yes, even professionals can state an opinion on a work in their given medium that raises eyebrows. Shocker. Look, you and I have discussed this before. And I will repeat it again, so that it's 100% clear: If someone wants to call ARTPOP mediocre, disappointing, lesser than her previous albums... I have read arguments on this level, and while I don't agree, I can at least see where they're coming from. But if there is a compelling case for why this album is bad, then I have not read it, here or anywhere else. Simple as that. And for you to say that I can't handle anything opposed to Gaga, take a seat or several. There are many things she has done that I don't care for, and I always state my reasons why I feel that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpadesToStart 3,444 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Elton is wrong. Applause, DWUW, ARTPOP, Gypsy, and Swine continue to slay me to this very day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeman 189 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 6 hours ago, SpadesToStart said: 13 hours ago, Edgelover129 said: What really pisses me off about this is that he claims to say that she would agree to that and after everything Gaga went through after ARTPOP was released she always claimed to have fully supported the album anyway and didn't give a **** what people thought because her and her fans loved it. For Elton to say this goes against what Gaga has said before and I feel if there is one thing that Gaga has always been honest about, it is her work, and to say that she would go against her work, that goes against everything Gaga is. I don't care if it is Elton. It's not a cool thing to say on the radio and put on blast like that. If it's your opinion that's fine but don't throw Gaga's name in there because Gaga of all people would die for her work and she's ALWAYS supported the album. very strange thing to say almost like he was putting pressure on her to "admit" it. Black and Blue Mermaid Bra created with Real Shells & Knobby Starfish https://www.etsy.com/market/seashell_bra This coconut one is kind of nice. Mind you there is something very special when someone makes their own clothes. I had a girlfriend and she had some that she had added some things too. It was really something very beautiful can't remember exactly what it was but she had sewn on some flowers or something she had cut out on a hooded top so it was personalised. really made all the difference. She would get all excited if she saw one of those foot peddle sewing machines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Brave 2,072 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 14 hours ago, Harry said: This kind of trash stale shade in order to one up another artist is probably why you got a slot on Radio ARTPOP! Your subtle jab and shade doesn't bother me at all. Im proud of what we did on Radio ARTPOP. Im just saying something that is very true... ARTPOP had massive commercial success compared to Rebel Heart. RH was a huge disappointment from a quality and commercial standpoint. Furthermore back to the Radio ARTPOP thing, I am really sick and tired of people like you using it as a derogatory slur or something negative. You live your life as a fan on a forum, I lived my life as a fan outside the box and got closer to Gaga than you ever will because of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcina Dimitrescu 1,156 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 18 hours ago, Justinn said: Me too but as you can see, some people hate taking bad tasting medicine, even though it's good for them... ARTPOP could be worse though.... it could have been as bad as Rebel Heart... yeah but at least it took like 30 years or something for Madonna to get to that level (i think, havent heard any albums of her full other than RH and COADF) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prismatic 4,789 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 49 minutes ago, Justinn said: Your subtle jab and shade doesn't bother me at all. Im proud of what we did on Radio ARTPOP. Im just saying something that is very true... ARTPOP had massive commercial success compared to Rebel Heart. RH was a huge disappointment from a quality and commercial standpoint. Furthermore back to the Radio ARTPOP thing, I am really sick and tired of people like you using it as a derogatory slur or something negative. You live your life as a fan on a forum, I lived my life as a fan outside the box and got closer to Gaga than you ever will because of it. The critics seem to favor Rebel Heart more (68) and I would like to see Gaga do similar numbers like Madonna with her 13/14th album. I Only Stan For Risk Takers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Brave 2,072 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Prismatic said: The critics seem to favor Rebel Heart more (68) and I would like to see Gaga do similar numbers like Madonna with her 13/14th album. Time will tell I guess. Actually from a quality standpoint I think RH is better but this is all irrelevant. I was just comparing the albums for other reasons. Both albums were huge disappointments coming from musicians held to such a high standard by themselves and by their colleagues and fans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gagafy 296 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Elton needs to listen to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBrzT5SAH-s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versace 7,959 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 On 1/20/2016 at 10:39 AM, Bio said: to me ARTPOP could be her best album with just a few adjustments. But it sure is better than Born This Way This, many people think ARTPOP was the career killer in fact it was Born This Way BTW's success was piggy back riding TF/TFM's impact that's it no GP member would care about such a pretentious preach that is BTW the album is overproduced, the album is also her least cohesive to date. Let's remember that Gaga's decrease in popularity started with the release of MTN and then a decline in The BTW tour , then after the hip break that was the perfect chance for the media to cut her out. Gaga really did overdo BTW , some things were too much for the GP to grasp, the vessel and jo being some examples , heck the song judas itself. Simply people were not here for ARTPOP, I doubt that those who dismiss it have even heard it in its entirety. While ARTPOP was not a straight forward pop album and the creative concept behind it was a bit complex , the content was way more passable as mainstream music in comparison to songs on BTW. You have songs like MANiCURE, Gypsy, DWUW and G.U.Y all which could have been major hits have they been there for Gaga. Cause think about why would Judas and You&I be top 10 worthy while DWUW and G.UY get snubbed, further proving BTW's ride on TF/FM. ARTPOP was dismissed cause many people had a bad after taste for BTW and with Gaga's 4th album people were expecting a simple album and when they didn't get it , they started hating. While I do love the songs on BTW and the antics behind it , one must admit it was too early for her to have such an album out and she knows that. Not only that one must appreciate how much more ARTPOP is unique , BTW is simply Gaga's ode to the 70's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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