LG5: The return to quality?

[Kanye West 1,676]

3 hours ago, Whispering said:

The previous album and era before oftentimes sets the stage for the next one. BTW, both the album and the era, could easily be seen as the "career damaging album"...the one that seperated Gaga from the GP and ended in a near career damaging injury. 

You have to also remember that not everyone here, or in the music world, equates success purely with numbers. Some prefer one album over another, or one era over another, despite how they did commercially. 

BTW was indeed career damaging. It was a good album, but not up to the quality of her past work. The awfully managed era didn't help either. Gaga's statement is correct.

I'm talking more about quality than anything else. Success matters, but quality is the primary focus. Gaga is always successful when she puts out quality work.

[Kanye West 1,676]

2 hours ago, Didymus said:

@Imperial POP

People are being too nice tbh. Keep you disrespectful attitude out of here, this thread isn't even about whether or not the albums deserve to be called good or bad, so any more comments about it I will report for flamebait and derailing tbh. This is a forum for god's sake If you have to actually quote someone to say you don't respect their opinion then maybe you should take some time off since dealing with opinions other than yours is like the most basic thing you need to be able to do here.

Then what is this thread about? As far as I can tell, it's about Gaga's statement on going back to quality and how she has put out low quality releases. Discussing what albums are part of that is perfectly on-topic.

People are discussing it properly, not being "nice". no need to sling insults to discuss something

Stay on topic.

[Whispering 18,865]

5 minutes ago, Imperial POP said:

BTW was indeed career damaging. It was a good album, but not up to the quality of her past work. The awfully managed era didn't help either. Gaga's statement is correct.

I'm talking more about quality than anything else. Success matters, but quality is the primary focus. Gaga is always successful when she puts out quality work.

It wasn't career damaging due to the quality of the music, visuals or promo. It was damaging because it didn't appeal to a wide demographic of music listeners, like her previous two albums did. The era was managed fine, as far as promo and support. It simply didn't connect with as many people as her previous music and eras. 

I disagree. Artists, including Gaga, put out quality material all the time that doesn't sell like other artists or like previous albums...for varying reasons. 

[socotra 3,295]

I love ARTPOP. My favorite album of hers. 

[Head Empty 25,000]

5 hours ago, Didymus said:

Though I disagree with this (though I hate the HU verses, the chorus and outro are bangin', Bad Kids and Americano are amazing and The Queen is stellar, well, the second half anyway - imo, MTN, GH, Judas, BM, HML and TEOG are the real overrated mediocre ones), I agree 100% with the spirit of your reply

Here I was rooting for your post because you defended Americano, until you dissed HML, my second fav

Oh well, opinions remain opinions on that part, but I agree with the overall sentiment as well

[Chelseaaaaaa 1,453]

I think BTW is better musically and lyrically (as is BTWB) than TF/TFM, and I'm aware I am alone in that opinion for the most part, but I also think ARTPOP had the best concept out of all. It was executed poorly but would've been amazing otherwise. Mind you, I mean the actual concept and not necessarily the tour or songs on the album. But I digress. It had the most potential. With that said, if we're talking about as a whole (lyrics/tour/aesthetic/success/etc) I do agree that TFM was her best from every angle.

[Head Empty 25,000]

40 minutes ago, Whispering said:

It wasn't career damaging due to the quality of the music, visuals or promo. It was damaging because it didn't appeal to a wide demographic of music listeners, like her previous two albums did. The era was managed fine, as far as promo and support. It simply didn't connect with as many people as her previous music and eras. 

I disagree. Artists, including Gaga, put out quality material all the time that doesn't sell like other artists or like previous albums...for varying reasons. 

BTW management was definitely sloppy though. Although the promo was good, the rest of it was lacking. Single choices were poor and the timing was even worse. And need I remind anyone of the TEOG video situation? Gaga shouldn't have been with Joseph Kahn in the first place, judging by their chemistry.

And let's not forget that this is the same management that didn't notice that their #1 artist was working herself into a burnout with a broken hip. Plenty was wrong with management during the BTW era.

Gaga turned it into something great regardless of all that though, despite some of the era's flaws.

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

I'm okay with it  I think BTW is probably her best album as a whole, even though there are a few songs that are kind of just there. Maybe its that I like the concept more than the actual music on a song-song basis?  

[eifulien 2,953]

1 hour ago, Imperial POP said:

Then what is this thread about? As far as I can tell, it's about Gaga's statement on going back to quality and how she has put out low quality releases. Discussing what albums are part of that is perfectly on-topic.

People are discussing it properly, not being "nice". no need to sling insults to discuss something

Stay on topic.

 Not you criticising Didy for being offtopic when he provided 60% of the posts in the thread, and adding valuable thought-provoking discussion. Your contribution, on the other hand, consists of discrediting other forum members' opinions just because they happen to value more an album that you dislike, and you validate your opinion as "more right" based on success.  That's really interesting... I remember your threads from the last couple of weeks about Telephone and TFM, and your self-assertiveness and attitude make it impossible to be willing to share some thoughts. 

on the OP: I'm very happy with Gaga's interviews as of late. I think with Billboard, V Magazine and this one she should end talking about the past eras and all of their success and mishaps. She is kinda reconciling with her career path now in a very mature and sober way. Not really bashing/shading her later work, just acknowledging its imperfection or fail to live to its full potential. Gaga has demonstrated numerous times her appreciation for both BTW and ARTPOP. The sole fact that she made me a stan during ARTPOP era makes me full of hope for her future. If she was at her worst then, I'm ready to hear her now. And considering the pressure she still pulled it better than many artists do.

About the Poshlife post - I think the only thing we can do is just forgive her. I don't think her words should take away from our enjoyment of the albums. And ultimately, such a downturn in her career was necessary to happen so that she realises the shortcomings and take action. I believe she more than anyone else was aware of the fact that her work wasn't up to her standards but it was impossible to say it at time of the albums' release cycle, because business is business and this would have had a detrimental effect. For me the Act II mess makes sense and fits very well with Benji's timeline. I mean, Gaga was already speaking of the unreleased material 10 days after ARTPOP's release. In my opinon, this is an indication that she wanted to at least indicate that she wasn't happy with everything on the album. The fact that she labeled ARTPOP as the commercial material and Act II as the more experimental one speaks for itself. It was like saying "Well I'm selling this cause I have to, but, hey, do you know that I also worked on something different that I really like but couldn't put it, cause my label doesn't believe it will sell".

Anyway, what's done is done. I value Gaga's openness about the past despite contradicting herself. At this point it'd be better to wrap this talk up and focus on the future projects. Her approach seems to be promising and I'm hopeful that the wait will be rewarding.

[VenusBlackStar 1,301]

4 hours ago, Didymus said:

That's nice.

And it does sound logical (the Timehop omg, I feel ya), on the other hand I'm not sure it covers everything PoshLife said. It's not so much about delivering an album, thinking it's fantastic and then in hindsight realizing it actually wasn't that amazing. Gaga is not talking about something like that, she's referring to entire phases of her career being under enormous label pressure and it affecting her work (and not just musically, in the same interview she said that, visually, it's even more palpable that she's being pulled in a hundred directions). That's not something you don't notice in the moment.

So I'm not sure.

I also found a subtle difference in tone here.

2014: Gaga stated she never changed herself, despite the industry pressure, and she never gave up on her authenticity. Then, to my annoyance, she claimed that if she ever had to do that, she would go back to singing in bars and she'd be perfectly happy there.

2016: Gaga states she "tried her best" to stay true to her authenticity but at the same time she literally refers to two specific albums as examples of what happens when she is allowed to breathe and genuinely create. As in the Billboard interview, she says that she can't function properly as an artist in the situation she was in during ARTPOP (and now apparently also during BTW). I mean, you remember her saying that she was telling herself "you're too good for this ****" while writing for ARTPOP. So she did know when she was in it but she still slapped a smile on her face and proclaimed that ARTPOP was her best album to date. Like she says in this interview: she became a doll just trying to stay in the game.

it's that kind of.. it's not really lying (though, is it?) but I think that does give more weight to what PoshLife is saying. This isn't some hindsight thing and she was only ever honest with us when everything collapsed. And I'm not that cynical, but I do think there's a possibility she's only being honest now because to say anything else but "I screwed up but I can do better" would be a career suicide.

I think one thing to keep in mind is how her state of mind and mental health were most likely different between these points in time, including during late 2013 and early 2014 (circa SXSW) as well when she was being super rebellious about creativity and ARTPOP. Sometimes people convince themselves of things for themselves internally and then over time might see some error in those thoughts. 

First of all, I write music and work creatively often, and I look back to lyrics and songs and stuff I wrote maybe five years ago and go "EEWW" when back then I might have looked at it and thought it was the best thing I ever wrote. But then I look at stuff I write now and see how I've grown from that creatively.

And to echo what @Chic said in her post my state of mind personally affects my creative output as well. The same is most likely the case for Gaga too. In fact we KNOW that that's the case for her. And we know from things she's said in the past was that she was still feeling a lot of pain and depression during the ARTPOP era. While promoting the album and traveling and performing, she might have convinced herself that maybe she was fine and really authentically in a creative rebellion for herself, but maybe later she realized that she was only masking that pain up until she started spending more time with Tony working on Cheek to Cheek. As someone who currently manages depression, there are times in the past where I've convinced myself that I was alright but really wasn't. I wanted to believe that I was, and maybe sometimes I really was, but that dark cloud was still there until I was brave enough to acknowledge it. Maybe that happened with Gaga too. Who knows? And that could be why sometimes it might seem like she changes her mind or contradicts herself. I think a number of people go through that in varying degrees.

[Whispering 18,865]

30 minutes ago, Totodile said:

BTW management was definitely sloppy though. Although the promo was good, the rest of it was lacking. Single choices were poor and the timing was even worse. And need I remind anyone of the TEOG video situation? Gaga shouldn't have been with Joseph Kahn in the first place, judging by their chemistry.

And let's not forget that this is the same management that didn't notice that their #1 artist was working herself into a burnout with a broken hip. Plenty was wrong with management during the BTW era.

Gaga turned it into something great regardless of all that though, despite some of the era's flaws.

Yeah, but that happens with everyone. JTs management messed his era up, including hurting his chances at getting AOTY. Even Katy's team (that some here think are perfect) made some major missteps with the Prism era. 

It's easy to second guess as fans, but even as fans, we still don't all agree on what single choices should be made. That shows you how hard it is to pick what will work and won't work, or what performances will go over and what promo will be best. All labels and all managements make mistakes with all artists. They don't have the luxury we have as fans, when we are saying what "should have been done". 

I agree, that Troy pushed too hard and didn't notice warning signs and red flags, but then again....most management companies are the same. They push their artists as much as allowed. Thankfully, Gaga has learned along the way that it is okay to say no and that she needs something different than what is going on at the time! 

[Alien Tulip 12,428]

I'm really glad she's so self aware that her first two albums are her best because they were made without major pressure. I like some songs on Born This Way but half of it is pretty bad lyrically and production wise. ARTPOP in general just felt all over the place and the music just felt mediocre. I'm glad she always stuck to her guns though. I also don't think she dislikes born this way or ARTPOP but it's pretty obvious they are her least favorite albums and bring back awful memories. 

[Alien Tulip 12,428]

I have a good feeling about her next album because she's more self aware now and being self aware is important when you're an artist. If you're delusional and cover up your anxiety with lies you tend to make work like ARTPOP. Sometimes you have to admit your fúck ups and learn to critique your own work so that way you can be a better artist. Gaga even said on a radio interview that when she listened to born thsi way she didnt realize how messed up it was in a laughing matter. I think when she listens to born this way and ARTPOP she has a lot going on her mind like "I should have written this differently or maybe the bass on that song was too hard" whereas in 2013 and 2014 she kinda had to delude herself into thinking ARTPOP was her magnum opus. I think she feels a sense of joy listening to the fame and the fame monster because she wasn't pressured and just did everything her way. I don't think she is exactly going back to the fame and the fame monster sound but more so the joy and freedom making those albums.

[eifulien 2,953]

4 minutes ago, Whispering said:

Yeah, but that happens with everyone. JTs management messed his era up, including hurting his chances at getting AOTY. Even Katy's team (that some here think are perfect) made some major missteps with the Prism era. 

It's easy to second guess as fans, but even as fans, we still don't all agree on what single choices should be made. That shows you how hard it is to pick what will work and won't work, or what performances will go over and what promo will be best. All labels and all managements make mistakes with all artists. They don't have the luxury we have as fans, when we are saying what "should have been done". 

I agree, that Troy pushed too hard and didn't notice warning signs and red flags, but then again....most management companies are the same. They push their artists as much as allowed. Thankfully, Gaga has learned along the way that it is okay to say no and that she needs something different than what is going on at the time! 

Something that I never figure out when it comes to who gets to call the shots is the label/management thing. And Gaga has never really pointed her finger so that we know for sure. Who is responsible for approving the musical direction/choosing the songs for the album/picking up singles, etc? How big is the final say of the record label? I know they provide the money for promo and release the album but management also has a say in the whole thing, right? To be honest, I still don't know who messed up more during ARTPOP - the management and Troy Carter or Interscope? She always talks kindly of the label, I think they enjoy a good relation (didn't they give her the horse?) If anyone knows, share. I even don't know if the management team is part of Interscope or is a separate company. It's so confusing 

[Whispering 18,865]

9 minutes ago, Son of ARTPOP said:

Something that I never figure out when it comes to who gets to call the shots is the label/management thing. And Gaga has never really pointed her finger so that we know for sure. Who is responsible for approving the musical direction/choosing the songs for the album/picking up singles, etc? How big is the final say of the record label? I know they provide the money for promo and release the album but management also has a say in the whole thing, right? To be honest, I still don't know who messed up more during ARTPOP - the management and Troy Carter or Interscope? She always talks kindly of the label, I think they enjoy a good relation (didn't they give her the horse?) If anyone knows, share. I even don't know if the management team is part of Interscope or is a separate company. It's so confusing 

The A&R person works with getting producers, musicians, studios, etc. together and scheduled. (and with getting writers and songs together, if they are needed, which they aren't with Gaga) The label has the final say in all matters, as far as the album and singles go...including which singles are sent out and the release schedule of the singles and albums. The management is the communication between the label and the artist and they help line up all the promotion. The label and management both work with radio stations. 

When Jimmy Iovine was still with Interscope, it was a kick ass label. Now, it isn't the same. Jimmy had one foot out the door before ARTPOP came together and even further during the promo phase and the rest of the era. That's something to consider when looking at how the era was carried out and to consider with the upcoming era. Iovine was highly respected in the music community and had a huge amount of influence!