Would Beyonce be taken more seriously if she was white?

[Adelephant 288]

Yes.

Beyonce haters are racist scum. 

[StrawberryBlond 14,862]

anyways TL;DR

She can play piano

Maybe if you read it all, you might learn something.

And really, she can play the piano? Because I've never seen any evidence of it. *Edit* Found a video of her playing it with Blue on her lap. But that's it. Well, if she can play, why doesn't she ever do it live? She should do it to prove how vast her talent is.

While I agree with your overall point about race definitely not holding Beyonce back, this entire chunk is ridiculous.

This is an enormous display of white arrogance, and once again your personal bias is coming into play. You simply can't accept that a lot of people actually love Beyonce because you have this weird grudge against her for some reason. Beyonce is outstanding. She outdoes virtually all of her contemporaries in terms of performing. If you don't like her songs then fine. But a lot of people really do and they aren't going to shell out their hard earned money on songs just because an artist is black and they "feel bad"

Like I asked craig. If Beyonce's success comes solely from her race and "white guilt", then why aren't Rihanna and Nicki - among pretty much every other current female black artist - as acclaimed and respected as Bey is? Why do people constantly call their talent into question? People look at someone like Beyonce and someone like Rihanna very differently, but they're both black women. So as you're suggesting, that's clearly not the deciding factor in how people judge artists.

I also can't believe you brought up Eminem as someone who is brought down when he's literally one of the most successful rappers ever. Probably the most, actually. At the beginning of his career he was looked at as the "white boy" but he overcame it with his talent and authenticity and people saw that he was the real deal.

I imagine that it's quite offensive to a lot of people that you think black artists that achieve acclaim are only praised because of their race when they still face a lot more than you or I could relate to. You're right, music is a sector where a lot of blacks have excelled... But you don't even want them to have that.

I'm not an arrogant white. I'm just being a realist about the situation. It's just that many whites don't admit to this reality. I don't think not liking her music and therefore trying to work out what other people see in her isn't exactly personal bias. This is a natural human reaction. I have my reasons to have my grudges against Beyonce. I have a problem with artists who claim credit for songs they weren't involved in and I dislike artists who are full of themselves and are focused too much on being viewed as "perfect" because no one is. I don't know why these things don't annoy more people. My "grudges" are never petty - they have distinct reasons based on music and moral principles and I never dislike artists for the sake of it. Now, we're running into problems when you're trying to convince me that she's outstanding. You have always criticised me for trying to impress my views upon others, but now you're doing just the same to me. Actually, her fan attitudes of trying to make everyone believe she's a goddess is partly what turn me away from her too. Yet, shortly after, you're saying "if you don't like her songs, fine." So, which is it? Do I have to love her or am I entitled to my opinion? And it takes more to outstanding than being a good performer in my book. And I never said people bought her songs because they feel bad. I'm just suggesting it could be a subconscious element they're not realising.

I never said that Beyonce's success comes solely from her race and white guilt. Here you are again, assuming and putting words into my mouth. I merely said it was a contributing factor. And Rihanna and Nicki may not be on her level of acclaim, but they are acclaimed in their own ways. Their albums get rated far higher by critics than I would have (even that generic mess that was Roman Reloaded and that awful Unapologetic that glamourised an abusive relationship). And as craig was saying, singers like Beyonce, Rihanna, Alicia Keys, etc. have more Grammys than white women and white artists in general. Gaga, Britney and Katy all have less Grammys than these women. This is why I don't get the whole "white artists are taken more seriously" thing. If anything, they're treated more harshly.

Yes, I get that Eminem is highly successful and respected but even he's had to deal with his fair share of discrimination no matter how good he is. Speaking of rap, with very few exceptions, I notice that rap albums from black artists are nearly always praised but white rappers hardly ever get that praise and when they're judged, they're judged.

I never said that black artists are only successful due to their race. But it is a great marketing tool (the black fan market is very loyal, as sales attest) and it may be a subconscious factor in our love for black artists. Of course they're allowed to have success and deserve it...but not all of them do. And it seems like no one will dare call a black artist untalented or suggest they didn't deserve an award. You'll notice how there's always an uproar when certain rap albums get snubbed at the Grammys or lose out to white acts. It's like if you're black, you're expected to win because you're amazing by default. How is that not an advantage in the industry?

[Riot Poof 2,236]

Please don't jumble Aaliyah with the rest of the artists you mentioned. She died when her career was in the middle of being catapulted to super stardom. Her last album sold 13 million world wide. Each album rose in sales by millions more than the one before and she was set to have one of the lead roles in the Matrix sequels before she died so it had to be recast. IMO she could have been just as big as Beyoncé. 

THANK YOU FOR DEFENDING AALIYAH!!! I was about to go off.

[Harry 26,836]

I'm not an arrogant white. I'm just being a realist about the situation. It's just that many whites don't admit to this reality. I don't think not liking her music and therefore trying to work out what other people see in her isn't exactly personal bias. This is a natural human reaction. I have my reasons to have my grudges against Beyonce. I have a problem with artists who claim credit for songs they weren't involved in and I dislike artists who are full of themselves and are focused too much on being viewed as "perfect" because no one is. I don't know why these things don't annoy more people. My "grudges" are never petty - they have distinct reasons based on music and moral principles and I never dislike artists for the sake of it. Now, we're running into problems when you're trying to convince me that she's outstanding. You have always criticised me for trying to impress my views upon others, but now you're doing just the same to me. Actually, her fan attitudes of trying to make everyone believe she's a goddess is partly what turn me away from her too. Yet, shortly after, you're saying "if you don't like her songs, fine." So, which is it? Do I have to love her or am I entitled to my opinion? And it takes more to outstanding than being a good performer in my book. And I never said people bought her songs because they feel bad. I'm just suggesting it could be a subconscious element they're not realising.

I never said that Beyonce's success comes solely from her race and white guilt. Here you are again, assuming and putting words into my mouth. I merely said it was a contributing factor. And Rihanna and Nicki may not be on her level of acclaim, but they are acclaimed in their own ways. Their albums get rated far higher by critics than I would have (even that generic mess that was Roman Reloaded and that awful Unapologetic that glamourised an abusive relationship). And as craig was saying, singers like Beyonce, Rihanna, Alicia Keys, etc. have more Grammys than white women and white artists in general. Gaga, Britney and Katy all have less Grammys than these women. This is why I don't get the whole "white artists are taken more seriously" thing. If anything, they're treated more harshly.

Yes, I get that Eminem is highly successful and respected but even he's had to deal with his fair share of discrimination no matter how good he is. Speaking of rap, with very few exceptions, I notice that rap albums from black artists are nearly always praised but white rappers hardly ever get that praise and when they're judged, they're judged.

I never said that black artists are only successful due to their race. But it is a great marketing tool (the black fan market is very loyal, as sales attest) and it may be a subconscious factor in our love for black artists. Of course they're allowed to have success and deserve it...but not all of them do. And it seems like no one will dare call a black artist untalented or suggest they didn't deserve an award. You'll notice how there's always an uproar when certain rap albums get snubbed at the Grammys or lose out to white acts. It's like if you're black, you're expected to win because you're amazing by default. How is that not an advantage in the industry?

Once again you feel like you have this innate ability (or right) to dictate how everyone else feels. Just because you have white guilt it doesn't mean everyone else does lol. That's such a small minded and immature way of thinking.

If you think Beyonce isn't exceptionally talented when it comes to performing/singing then you don't have a good gauge on musical abilities. You don't have to like that or enjoy it but it's just a simple acknowledgement, credit where credit's due and all that. The fact is she's more talented than a lot of her peers, and a lot of people also like her music. Even if you don't. Grow up and accept that.

"And I never said people bought her songs because they feel bad. I'm just suggesting it could be a subconscious element they're not realising." - you've never sounded more ridiculous, and that's saying something. You really just can't accept that people honestly like something you don't. You litter your posts in such pretension and clutter to make it seem like you're intelligent but your mentality is that of a Twitter stan

"Their albums get rated far higher by critics than I would have" - again trying to prove your point using your own bias/personal grudges as a source. Tragic :)

To me this really does sound like white arrogance. You're literally complaining because a lot of black artists have more Grammys than white artists. WHY is that such a terrible thing? You really think black people are so inferior that they couldn't possibly enjoy more success than white people in any field?

Clearly you've never heard how people drag Rihanna for her singing/lack of involvement, Nicki's talents, trash rappers like Flo Rida etc... Acclaim is given where acclaim is due. I see you and craig complaining about the lack of white award winners in rap fields, but I don't see you complaining about the lack of blacks in country or classical awards. Hypocritical, white arrogance..

You literally just said being black is a marketing tool. You ignorant, ignorant girl

[Felicia 124]

In a word. No.

She'd probably be taken much less seriously if she were Caucasian.

[Kayla 7,595]

Doesn't get enough praise? She gets so much praise that she's often viewed as "overrated" by a small handful people who think singing and dancing exceptionally well while putting on a great show with good music isn't enough.  

I've seriously only seen people who dislike Beyonce online and even there they're a minority. The GP loves Beyonce, her albums have done well, she gets recognition for her performances, etc. I'm not sure why you're thinking people don't take Beyonce seriously....

[JusKeepBreathin 19,311]

Yes but black woman don't get treated as equal as white woman do, so the saying is that black woman have to work twice as hard to get half as much

I think black women have less opportunities than whites women do. In pop music, acting or other creative opportunities. I watch Project Runway a lot so I think black women have less opportunities in fashion design too, but I still think all women have to be twice as good to get half the praise. With black women it's worse because they have even less opportunities than white women. I mean this year was the first year a black women got an Emmy for a lead role in a drama series. It's 2015. I can't believe that this hasn't happened before. You know what. Never mind you are right black women have to be twice as good to get half the praise. But TBH I don't think it applies to music. That's the one place black women shine and get the praise they deserve. From Diana Ross to Aretha Franklin to Whitney Houston and Janet Jackson and no Beyoncé and Rihanna and even Nicki. Other areas need to catch up to music.

[Harry 26,836]

Doesn't get enough praise? She gets so much praise that she's often viewed as "overrated" by a small handful people who think singing and dancing exceptionally well while putting on a great show with good music isn't enough.  

I've seriously only seen people who dislike Beyonce online and even there they're a minority. The GP loves Beyonce, her albums have done well, she gets recognition for her performances, etc. I'm not sure why you're thinking people don't take Beyonce seriously....

Right. The only people that actively don't like Beyonce are angry people of stan culture lol.

[Harry 26,836]

But TBH I don't think it applies to music. That's the one place black women shine and get the praise they deserve. From Diana Ross to Aretha Franklin to Whitney Houston and Janet Jackson and no Beyoncé and Rihanna and even Nicki. Other areas need to catch up to music.

Honestly I agree with this. Historically music has embraced black people even when that kind of acceptance wasn't mirrored culturally. That's either nice or disturbing, whichever way you look at it. Particularly 50-60 years ago.

But some people in this thread think that they've been given too much praise. Like there's a cap on how much praise black people can have 

[StrawberryBlond 14,862]

Once again you feel like you have this innate ability (or right) to dictate how everyone else feels. Just because you have white guilt it doesn't mean everyone else does lol. That's such a small minded and immature way of thinking.

If you think Beyonce isn't exceptionally talented when it comes to performing/singing then you don't have a good gauge on musical abilities. You don't have to like that or enjoy it but it's just a simple acknowledgement, credit where credit's due and all that. The fact is she's more talented than a lot of her peers, and a lot of people also like her music. Even if you don't. Grow up and accept that.

"And I never said people bought her songs because they feel bad. I'm just suggesting it could be a subconscious element they're not realising." - you've never sounded more ridiculous, and that's saying something. You really just can't accept that people honestly like something you don't. You litter your posts in such pretension and clutter to make it seem like you're intelligent but your mentality is that of a Twitter stan

"Their albums get rated far higher by critics than I would have" - again trying to prove your point using your own bias/personal grudges as a source. Tragic :)

To me this really does sound like white arrogance. You're literally complaining because a lot of black artists have more Grammys than white artists. WHY is that such a terrible thing? You really think black people are so inferior that they couldn't possibly enjoy more success than white people in any field?

Clearly you've never heard how people drag Rihanna for her singing/lack of involvement, Nicki's talents, trash rappers like Flo Rida etc... Acclaim is given where acclaim is due. I see you and craig complaining about the lack of white award winners in rap fields, but I don't see you complaining about the lack of blacks in country or classical awards. Hypocritical, white arrogance..

You literally just said being black is a marketing tool. You ignorant, ignorant girl

Again, you think I'm generalising. I mean some, not all people think this way.

I didn't say that she wasn't exceptionally talented in these fields. In fact, one of the very first things I said was that she was a good singer and performer. I never denied that. All I said was that her music and personality don't appeal to me.

I notice how you try to discredit me every step of the way by making judgements of me to avoid intelligently engaging with what I have to say. Instead of saying why you think the quote was ridiculous, you just cite it as ridiculous, do a bit of mudslinging and laugh. Yeah, that's really going to make me come round to your way of thinking.

There is no bias. I'm just talking about the biggest names you might know in this case. Just saying, I see a lot of albums by black artists get praised a bit too much. A lot of the public agree with me too. White artists always get treated harsher but black artists consistently pull out good scores, even when their music is just as generic and trashy as that of white artists. Can you imagine how the critics would have ripped a white female rapper apart if they made Anaconda or the lyric video to Only filled with Nazi imagery? That girl wouldn't have a career to speak of. But Nicki gets away with it. For an oppressed minority in the industry, that's some advantage.

I never said that black artists winning Grammys was a bad thing. You're missing the whole point of what I'm talking about. Everything I've written has been in response to the theory "Black people would be treated more seriously as artists if they were white." I've attempted to disprove it by showing that plenty of black artists get more sales, acclaim and awards than a lot of whites. That's all it is.

Yes, every artist will get some criticism, but on the whole, I feel they get praised more than criticised. And I did partly bring up how blacks in other genres are treated. I said that black soul and jazz artists don't get the opportunities that white soul and jazz artists do. I didn't bring up the lack of blacks in country categories because I don't know of any who do that genre (let's face it, it's not one that's geared towards them) and I don't follow classical music, so I didn't even think of bringing that up. I'm saying that it's insulting for people like Azealia Banks to go on rap radio and s**t on white rappers with statements like "the Grammys are for excellence, Iggy isn't excellent," and "the Macklemore album wasn't as good as the Kendrick album." What's even more insulting is that Macklemore actually went on record and said that he thought Kendrick's was better and was the true winner and he repeatedly talks about the implications of him potentially whitewashing the rap game. It's like, dude, have some pride. Be pleased that your work that you put hard graft into gained the awards it did, not everything is political and music quality shouldn't be based on politics. And frankly, I think it's insulting to treat black people like charity cases who won't feel worthwhile if they don't win an award.

Like it or not, most of our biological state is a marketing tool in the industry. Being male is a marketing tool. Being female is a marketing tool. Being good looking is a marketing tool. Being thin is a marketing tool. Being an English speaker is a marketing tool. So, yes, being black is a marketing tool, just like being white is also a marketing tool. A lot of people buy music based on the way the artist looks. It's not ignorance, it's reality.

[Harry 26,836]

Again, you think I'm generalising. I mean some, not all people think this way.

I didn't say that she wasn't exceptionally talented in these fields. In fact, one of the very first things I said was that she was a good singer and performer. I never denied that. All I said was that her music and personality don't appeal to me.

I notice how you try to discredit me every step of the way by making judgements of me to avoid intelligently engaging with what I have to say. Instead of saying why you think the quote was ridiculous, you just cite it as ridiculous, do a bit of mudslinging and laugh. Yeah, that's really going to make me come round to your way of thinking.

There is no bias. I'm just talking about the biggest names you might know in this case. Just saying, I see a lot of albums by black artists get praised a bit too much. A lot of the public agree with me too. White artists always get treated harsher but black artists consistently pull out good scores, even when their music is just as generic and trashy as that of white artists. Can you imagine how the critics would have ripped a white female rapper apart if they made Anaconda or the lyric video to Only filled with Nazi imagery? That girl wouldn't have a career to speak of. But Nicki gets away with it. For an oppressed minority in the industry, that's some advantage.

I never said that black artists winning Grammys was a bad thing. You're missing the whole point of what I'm talking about. Everything I've written has been in response to the theory "Black people would be treated more seriously as artists if they were white." I've attempted to disprove it by showing that plenty of black artists get more sales, acclaim and awards than a lot of whites. That's all it is.

Yes, every artist will get some criticism, but on the whole, I feel they get praised more than criticised. And I did partly bring up how blacks in other genres are treated. I said that black soul and jazz artists don't get the opportunities that white soul and jazz artists do. I didn't bring up the lack of blacks in country categories because I don't know of any who do that genre (let's face it, it's not one that's geared towards them) and I don't follow classical music, so I didn't even think of bringing that up. I'm saying that it's insulting for people like Azealia Banks to go on rap radio and s**t on white rappers with statements like "the Grammys are for excellence, Iggy isn't excellent," and "the Macklemore album wasn't as good as the Kendrick album." What's even more insulting is that Macklemore actually went on record and said that he thought Kendrick's was better and was the true winner and he repeatedly talks about the implications of him potentially whitewashing the rap game. It's like, dude, have some pride. Be pleased that your work that you put hard graft into gained the awards it did, not everything is political and music quality shouldn't be based on politics. And frankly, I think it's insulting to treat black people like charity cases who won't feel worthwhile if they don't win an award.

Like it or not, most of our biological state is a marketing tool in the industry. Being male is a marketing tool. Being female is a marketing tool. Being good looking is a marketing tool. Being thin is a marketing tool. Being an English speaker is a marketing tool. So, yes, being black is a marketing tool, just like being white is also a marketing tool. A lot of people buy music based on the way the artist looks. It's not ignorance, it's reality.

You're not going to love every artist/album out there. No one does. Race has nothing to do with that. The bottom line is that you're saying Beyonce shouldn't get that much love because she's back. And that's disgusting.

I don't know why you're saying all black artists have good critical scores. That's not true. Just look at Rihanna and Nicki's Metacritic pages. Even Bey's Meta scores for every album except her last were very average.

You obviously just have a subconscious issue with women of colour succeeding. A shame.

EDIT: "I didn't bring up the lack of blacks in country categories because I don't know of any who do that genre (let's face it, it's not one that's geared towards them)" - what kind of shameless racism  Why on earth can't blacks sing country? Ridiculous... Yet here you are complaining about whites not getting enough recognition for rap, which is traditionally "geared" towards blacks. There ARE black country artists but they just don't get through because it's a racist genre. Far more whites have been successful in rap than there have been blacks in country. You're unbelievable.

[StrawberryBlond 14,862]

You're not going to love every artist/album out there. No one does. Race has nothing to do with that. The bottom line is that you're saying Beyonce shouldn't get that much love because she's back. And that's disgusting.

I don't know why you're saying all black artists have good critical scores. That's not true. Just look at Rihanna and Nicki's Metacritic pages. Even Bey's Meta scores for every album except her last were very average.

You obviously just have a subconscious issue with women of colour succeeding. A shame.

EDIT: "I didn't bring up the lack of blacks in country categories because I don't know of any who do that genre (let's face it, it's not one that's geared towards them)" - what kind of shameless racism  Why on earth can't blacks sing country? Ridiculous... Yet here you are complaining about whites not getting enough recognition for rap, which is traditionally "geared" towards blacks. There ARE black country artists but they just don't get through because it's a racist genre. Far more whites have been successful in rap than there have been blacks in country. You're unbelievable.

"...you're saying Beyonce shouldn't get that much love because she's black." I said no such thing, nor did I imply such a thing. You clearly know so little about me to think I would ever say something like that. You're just twisting everything I've said to suit your vision and make me look bad.

Very average? All Nicki's albums got very good scores, as did Beyonce's. Her latest album got critical acclaim. Metacritic doesn't contain all reviews either, so those scores aren't 100% accurate.

I have no subconscious issue with black women succeeding. The only subconscious issue I have is seeing untalented people suceeding. It just so happens to be that some of them are black, which doesn't always look that good. But you know, until now, I was pleased to find that no one had ever called me out on being racist for simply being critical about certain black artists. But I guess the day had to come when someone would just want a bone to pick.

I didn't say blacks couldn't sing country, I just said I don't know any names and there's not very many of them. The "country isn't geared towards them" line referred to how some blacks feel isolated with country themes sung by conservative Republicans from the south, who probably had ties to the slave industry from their ancestors and may hold racist views. So, a lot don't want to be associated with that genre for fear of not being discriminated against and not being marketable. Which is pretty much what you're saying. Yet it's wrong for me to say it. And it had no correlation to what I said about blacks vs. whites in rap. You're crossing wires to make me look bad and you know it.

[Harry 26,836]

"...you're saying Beyonce shouldn't get that much love because she's black." I said no such thing, nor did I imply such a thing. You clearly know so little about me to think I would ever say something like that. You're just twisting everything I've said to suit your vision and make me look bad.

Very average? All Nicki's albums got very good scores, as did Beyonce's. Her latest album got critical acclaim. Metacritic doesn't contain all reviews either, so those scores aren't 100% accurate.

I have no subconscious issue with black women succeeding. The only subconscious issue I have is seeing untalented people suceeding. It just so happens to be that some of them are black, which doesn't always look that good. But you know, until now, I was pleased to find that no one had ever called me out on being racist for simply being critical about certain black artists. But I guess the day had to come when someone would just want a bone to pick.

I didn't say blacks couldn't sing country, I just said I don't know any names and there's not very many of them. The "country isn't geared towards them" line referred to how some blacks feel isolated with country themes sung by conservative Republicans from the south, who probably had ties to the slave industry from their ancestors and may hold racist views. So, a lot don't want to be associated with that genre for fear of not being discriminated against and not being marketable. Which is pretty much what you're saying. Yet it's wrong for me to say it. And it had no correlation to what I said about blacks vs. whites in rap. You're crossing wires to make me look bad and you know it.

You're being critical about them BEING black not just for artistic reasons. This is literally a race discussion and you've said most people like Beyonce because she's black. As if you can't believe that a black woman is genuinely celebrated.

Keep living in your white bubble. Fool. First knocking down women and now this.

[StrawberryBlond 14,862]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

You're being critical about them BEING black not just for artistic reasons. This is literally a race discussion and you've said most people like Beyonce because she's black. As if you can't believe that a black woman is genuinely celebrated.

Keep living in your white bubble. Fool. First knocking down women and now this.

It's not so much being critical as pondering the differences between being white and black in the industry. Of course there are advantages to being black when you make urban music - you will be taken more seriously automatically due to your race. Like, is that even an opinion? I never said that people like Beyonce just because she's black, just that she has certain advantages to being black with her music, dance moves and image. As a black woman, she can make urban musictwerk and be overtly confident and sassy and be accepted for it. White women don't have those advantages. When they make urban music and twerk, they're called wiggas and accused of trying to appropriate black culture and when they're overtly confident and sassy, they get called smug b****es. So, my point is that Beyonce would probably be taken less seriously if she were white, not more. It's nothing to do with talent, it's all to do with what the public seem to want and expect from black and white singers.

For the last time, I'm not a racist (or s-xist either). You are aware that making slanderous accusations about members is against community guidelines, right?

[Harry 26,836]

42 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

It's not so much being critical as pondering the differences between being white and black in the industry. Of course there are advantages to being black when you make urban music - you will be taken more seriously automatically due to your race. Like, is that even an opinion? I never said that people like Beyonce just because she's black, just that she has certain advantages to being black with her music, dance moves and image. As a black woman, she can make urban musictwerk and be overtly confident and sassy and be accepted for it. White women don't have those advantages. When they make urban music and twerk, they're called wiggas and accused of trying to appropriate black culture and when they're overtly confident and sassy, they get called smug b****es. So, my point is that Beyonce would probably be taken less seriously if she were white, not more. It's nothing to do with talent, it's all to do with what the public seem to want and expect from black and white singers.

For the last time, I'm not a racist (or s-xist either). You are aware that making slanderous accusations about members is against community guidelines, right?

Yet you still won't address the country thing which is the exact same thing but on the flip side. You just sound like a baby throwing toys out the pram cos you want white people to have everything.

Alright sweetheart.

You're intolerant.