Nicki Minaj vs. Taylor Swift drama, Katy Perry joins

[Melech 9,900]

Yeah, peace

 

[Haroon 49,685]

@Barbados Merged into here :)

[retroglamx 5,177]

Peace, at last!

[LoveandMagic 1,731]

This was my question from the first. Why was Nicki's argument about slim girls and then about race, when a curvy black woman was nominated in the category she thought she deserved to be in? Beyonce's nomination says that MTV was fine with having a curvy, half dressed black woman shaking her ass and doing s-xual dance moves in a video that was up for VOTY. MTV either didn't want an entire video about big dicks and 'look at my ass' nominated for their highest award or they just didn't want Nicki to be nominated in that category. 

This never was about MTV picking white skinny girls over Nicki, it was about picking Beyonce over Nicki. Nicki should have asked that question, instead of trying to make it about race, when 3/5 of the nominees are black. That's why pulling the race card was lame. Be smart and courageous enough to ask the real questions! 

  I think that question probably should have been asked by Nicki first. Judging by her later interviews, this possibly crucial tid bit seems to have escaped her notice. Whether it's truly about race, s-xism, or both, it is a question worth asking. I noticed Meghan was also not nominated. 

[Whispering 18,865]

I swear if MTV gives the award to the men who are nominated for VOTY...

With Bruno having the most successful song on the list and Kendrick having a video with a timely message, it wouldn't surprise me if one of them received the award. 

[Whispering 18,865]

  I think that question probably should have been asked by Nicki first. Judging by her later interviews, this possibly crucial tid bit seems to have escaped her notice. Whether it's truly about race, s-xism, or both, it is a question worth asking. I noticed Meghan was also not nominated. 

Meghan's exclusion is far more questionable than Nicki's. Talk about a cultural moment...I couldn't go anywhere or watch any channel without hearing the song or a reference to the song. Plus, the video actually had bigger people and average looking people in it, not just beautiful curvy women like the other video in question. 

AATB ended up going 5 times platinum, it was everywhere...and Meghan didn't get a single nomination for her message song. 

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

Wrecking Ball had more content than ass shots and a lap dance. It was also a song that was a number one Pop hit and stayed high on BB for months. It wasn't just on Ellen or a viral video...it was everywhere. I still see references to it today and hear it being used in commercials. There is a difference in a video that has a couple of shock worthy moments in it and a video that's about ass from start to finish, representing a song about big dicks. The song had a high negative score on call out scores, because it was irritating to hear on radios, and ended up not doing well on Pop radio. All of that is probably why they didn't want to nominate this video...it was about attention getting ass shots from start to finish. While I don't care if Nicki wants to go completely naked for five minutes, there is a point where most people get tired of looking at her shake her bare ass. Maybe the average person simply didn't find that artistic or something that was groundbreaking? Anaconda was not comparable to Wrecking Ball, other than its views...and there have been several other songs over the past few years that have  had record breaking views for the year, that MTV has passed on nominating for the VOTY award.

Nicki played the race card, when she didn't get what she wanted. If she wants to come at someone or make it about something other than MTV thinking the video was too attention getting with an annoying song, she needs to question why Beyonce got a nomination. There isn't a racial issue here, when three of the last eight WINNERS of this award have been black women, Beyonce is nominated in this category this year with a dance video that shows off her curves and 3/5 of the nominees are black. 

 

So you read my post and just ignored everything about respectability politics, the crux of my argument, and the race card part and went on to re-state everything...

( ._.)

Yes, Wrecking Ball is more than Miley swinging on a wrecking ball naked in slow motion.

It also involves hammer licking and uncomfortable stare shots. And before and after shots of her posing with the hammer in the cubicle-like space...Oh and writhing and crying around in the wreckage  

Idk where you were if the only impact Anaconda seemed to have was a video by Ellen  I personally saw it everywhere and it was mentioned in my everyday life for several weeks in random conversation. I couldn't escape it, especially not on the internet. Memes on the internet that I still see used today, tons of parodies. Broke the record for views, etc. WB had more impact, but if impact is a qualifier for a nomination sometimes, Anaconda had more impact than lets say 7/11. I'd also say that Anaconda's single cover sparked a bit of controversy and flair and Nicki herself opened a brief discussion on the policing of black women celebrating their bodies unashamedly that doesn't exist for white women. (Nicki in only underwear showing her ass was "gross" while white women models literally do it all the time and are called "beautiful", etc.) so this conversation was brewing from even then. To be clear, I doubt Nicki had any of this in mind beforehand, but she certainly used these instances to talk about things larger than herself and her song throughout the era.

But I digress. I'm not saying that Anaconda was deserving or quality, only that Wrecking Ball was not creative or innovative at all... It's a not so original, blunt metaphor (no pun intended) represented quite literally. It was "viral" because it was miley cyrus, a skinny white woman who america saw as 'sweet' and 'country' and 'precious' doing it (though thats weak too, because We Can't Stop was already semi viral)

Yes, Anaconda is MORE crass and brazen than Wrecking Ball, and certainly more "inappropriate" and that's my point. Society tells women that they can be "self-empowering" (a questionable term in feminist circles) and embrace their s-xuality... but only if its done in a way that appeases the system. FAT ASSES are WAY too "not appropriate" to their standards. The song itself is lyrically insignifcant, but the video is definitely about her celebrating her assets and s-xuality as a woman, but always as a woman who is not simply a product, but one in charge ( see the cutting the banana metaphor)

EVERYWHERE it was reported that Miley's wrecking ball video was unnecessarily provocative and uncomfortable to watch for some or that "miley goes naked in new video" etc etc... but that made it MORE popular. Nicki is a black female with large assets who does NOT filter her content to make sure that everyone is going to like it or that it wont reflect badly on her or her at an intersection of black and female (because twerking and big asses are popularly associated with black women). In summary, its that we see certain acts of "inappropriateness" as acceptable, as long as they fit into a certain mold of inappropriate, and we completely dismiss other acts as "over s-xualized dribble with no possible meaning other than to show off a woman's body" (which is problematic because that SHOULDN'T be a bad thing in the first place ) 

I'm not going to re-explain to you why "playing the race card" used as an argument against involving race in pop culture, a place where race, along with gender, s-xuality, class, etc. is basically always going to be relevant, is problematic... If not outright discrimination, at least implicit biases the or tribalistic "othering" of people who look different than you is already something that happens in literally every transaction in a multicultural environment  It's not something that is just forgotten, we can't ignore every axis of oppression when we talk about a problem. The thing is that people who use "playing the race card" rarely make a distinction between actual things that are heavily tied to race and things that (rarely) aren't related at all, they throw it out everytime ANYTHING racial comes up and then it usually leads to "you are racist for talking about it!" bs. All of this hinders progress and discussion that NEEDS to be happening about race in society. It's basically "Lets not talk about the racial implications of this". Black people and marginalized people in general know more about the effects of -isms because they deal with them in more than just individual examples and acts than people who DON'T face them, so telling them 'this isn't about race!' is an act of privilege. People who are marginalized often have to think things like "Did I lose because I wasn't as good, or because I'm *insert marginalized social status/class/race/gender*" and while sometimes its the former, its just as often the latter masqueraded as the former and there's no constant, so its a reoccurring thought. They don't have the privilege to distance their race/class/gender/orientation from their actions.

So yeah. I think this lack of a nomination exists at the intersection of blackness ("you can be black, but only SO black")and womanhood (the policing of women's s-xualities and demonizing those who dare to do "empower" themselves) rather than just one. I agree that Beyonce could have been more of a "target" in this now-dead argument, but Nicki has no reason to fault Beyonce for being more "respectable", only the industry and the nominating committee for being so conditional on its admiration. The same way she wasn't directly ATTACKING Taylor OR Miley, but seemingly commenting on the bigger picture. The argument all goes to shreds if we dont immediately assume that Nicki is just a petty woman who didn't get what she wanted or thinks she deserves because its more interesting than the possibility of her pointing out discrepancies she sees in society  

Also, the "some of the last winners were black! Beyonce is Black and Curvy! RACISM DOESN'T EXIST HERE" argument serves some serious "I have a black friend, or I like black people, so its not racist!' teas  

Im not entirely disagreeing with you in terms of "what happened", but you definitely missed the main parts of my argument and just went on to say your own side 

[Whispering 18,865]

 

Yes, Wrecking Ball is more than Miley swinging on a wrecking ball naked in slow motion. It also involves hammer licking and uncomfortable stare shots. And before and after shots of her posing with the hammer in the cubicle-like space...Oh and writhing and crying around in the wreckage.

Idk where you were if the only impact Anaconda seemed to have was a video by Ellen. I personally saw it everywhere and it was mentioned in my everyday life for several weeks in random conversation. I couldn't escape it, especially not on the internet. Memes on the internet that I still see used today, tons of parodies. Broke the record for views, etc. WB had more impact, but if impact is a qualifier for a nomination sometimes, Anaconda had more impact

Yes, Anaconda is MORE crass and brazen than Wrecking Ball, and certainly more "inappropriate" and that's my point. Society tells women that they can be "self-empowering" (a questionable term in feminist circles) and embrace their s-xuality... but only if its done in a way that appeases the system. FAT ASSES are WAY too "not appropriate" to their standards. The song itself is lyrically insignifcant, but the video is definitely about her celebrating her assets and s-xuality as a woman, but always as a woman who is not simply a product, but one in charge ( see the cutting the banana metaphor)

Also, the "some of the last winners were black! Beyonce is Black and Curvy! RACISM DOESN'T EXIST HERE" argument serves some serious "I have a black friend, or I like black people, so its not racist!' teas  [:toofunny:]

I mentioned Ellen, because that was Nicki's big moment she pointed out. I disagree, as Anaconda quickly faded, especially as a song on the radio and as one that was used in commercials, singing shows, etc. I heard a few people mention Anaconda, bug after the "did you see her ass", it pretty much went away. Wrecking Ball was the coming out moment for Miley, so everyone was discussing it. Even my great grandmother asked if I had seen it. On top of that, the video was more than look at me naked or watch me lick a hammer and the song was everywhere for months. It is still a popular recurrent on radio and it is still being used on every singing show, every year and in commercials. People watched the video and bought it and continue to enjoy it even now. Even with all of this, Nicki's point is still weak, as "a cultural moment" does not gaurentee a nomination. If it did Gangnam Style would have been nominated. If breaking the Vevo record got a nomination, then Boyfriend, Blank Space, Roar, On the Floor and several One Direction videos should have been nominated. Why weren't they? 

I believe Anaconda was simply too much...too much ass, too many naked poses, too much talk about dicks and a lap dance tacked on at the end. MTV still nominated it, but like Gangnam Style, they must have not felt it was worthy of a VOTY nomination. 

Nicki had no problem pointing out the "skinny girls" in videos. Why didn't she point out that she is a different image of a black woman? Why didn't she take this opportunity, when everyone was listening, to talk about why the safe black women are awarded, while the others aren't? 

No, it proves that MTV does not hold back from nominating black artists. They don't nominate a single "token" black artists every year, nor do they shun them when it comes to winning. White artists are in the minority in the VOTY category this year. MTV nominated black artists and they nominated a black woman, they did nominate Nicki for three awards...they just didn't think her video was one of the best of the year. My guess is that they have a couple of slots for R&B and Rap and they felt there were better options there. If Nicki's song would have crossed over more to Pop, it could have possibly challenged those spots. The Rap spot went to Kendrick, with his message video. They probably looked at a video with naked asses and lap dances and then a video about police brutality...and picked the better video. 

[Alcina Dimitrescu 1,156]

I really wish BS video had been nominated instead BB. It's the best video from the two.

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

I mentioned Ellen, because that was Nicki's big moment she pointed out. I disagree, as Anaconda quickly faded, especially as a song on the radio and as one that was used in commercials, singing shows, etc. I heard a few people mention Anaconda, bug after the "did you see her ass", it pretty much went away. Wrecking Ball was the coming out moment for Miley, so everyone was discussing it. My great grandmother asked if I had seen it. On top of that, the video was more than look at me naked or watch me lick a hammer and the song was everywhere for months. I still hear it on the radio often and it is still being used on every singing show every year and in commercials. People watched the video and bought it and continue to enjoy it even now. Even with all of this, Nicki's point is still weak, as "a cultural moment" does not gaurentee a nomination. If it did Gangnam Style would have been nominated. If breaking the Vevo record got a nomination, then We a Can't Stop, Boyfriend, Blank Space, Roar, On the Floor and several One a Direction videos should have been nominated. Why weren't they? 

I believe Anaconda was simply too much...too much ass, too many naked poses, too much talk about dicks and a lap dance tacked on at the end. MTV still nominated it, but like Gangnam Style, they must have not felt it was worthy of a VOTY nomination. 

No, it proves that MTV does not hold back from nominating black artists. They don't nominate a single "token" black artists every year, nor do they shun them when it comes to winning. White artists are in the minority in the VOTY category this year. MTV nominated black artists and they nominated a black woman, they did nominate Nicki for three awards...they just didn't think her video was one of the best of the year. My guess is that they have a couple of slots for R&B and Rap and they felt there were better options there. If Nicki's song would have crossed over more to Pop, it could have possibly challenged those spots. The Rap spot went to Kendrick, with his message video. They probably looked at a video with naked asses and lap dances and then a video about police brutality...and picked the better video. 

I wasn't arguing that Anaconda deserved a VOTY nom. or was a "quality video", but rather talking about why Beyonce is seen as "more appropriate" in a cultural sense and how the discussion would have been more interesting had it been framed in that light of respectability rather than solely on race. You're right impact doesn't guarantee a nomination, my own anecdotal experience with Anaconda was just meant to illustrate that its debatable (not objectively irrelevant) as you clearly didn't see it as as much of a phenomenon as I did. I can see why Nicki thought it should get a nom though  Also, yes MTV doesn't seem to have the same problem with overt racism as other award shows in the entertainment industry, so I agreed that framing it as race was ill-timed and came from the wrong person (as Nicki herself was nominated, it should've been someone like Tinashe for best choreo or something being entirely snubbed despite no controversy) though I still think the cop out of claiming that someone is "playing the race card" is not needed

My post was definitely more about the bigger picture than simply Nicki thinking her video deserved a nomination for VOTY, so I got a bit off topic  

For the record, I personally find both Wrecking Ball AND Anaconda as not deserving videos and now that you mention it I didn't realize Gangnam Style wasn't nominated... THAT video deserved a nomination, like what even  It had iconic choreography, was well made, had societal implications/commentary , AND worldwide impact at the same time  

[Alcina Dimitrescu 1,156]

Oh and regarding the 7/11 vs Anaconda thing, i think that the way 7/11 was filmed or mimics being filmed is very representative of the times we live in (mimicking a video filmed and edited with a cellphone)

Anaconda on the other hand had black ladies living in jungle trees eating bananas It's astounding that Nicki pulled the race card

[Riot Poof 2,236]

I'd be more on board with Nicki if she wasn't talking about not being nominated for VOTY. I'm sorry, but I think it's a reach when specifically talking about the snub. And I don't understand why Nicki had to come for Taylor the women nominees when all "Thinking Out Loud" had going for it was that the song itself was very popular.

[Yanko 9,860]

I'd be more on board with Nicki if she wasn't talking about not being nominated for VOTY. I'm sorry, but I think it's a reach when specifically talking about the snub. And I don't understand why Nicki had to come for Taylor the women nominees when all "Thinking Out Loud" had going for it was that the song itself was very popular.

vma nominates popular songs

i'm here for thinking out loud snatching

 

[TheFame Monster 8,949]

Meghan's exclusion is far more questionable than Nicki's. Talk about a cultural moment...I couldn't go anywhere or watch any channel without hearing the song or a reference to the song. Plus, the video actually had bigger people and average looking people in it, not just beautiful curvy women like the other video in question. 

AATB ended up going 5 times platinum, it was everywhere...and Meghan didn't get a single nomination for her message song. 

AATB didn't meet the deadline. It was eligible for last years VMAs

[StrawberryBlond 14,872]

There's another two things I would like to add:

Anaconda wasn't as impactful as Nicki makes out. It has 489 million views now, lower than other videos that were released at the time, especially All About That Bass and Shake It Off, both of which have literally hundreds of millions more views. Wrecking Ball, which set the 24 hour record before her, also has a lot more views. Katy Perry's Roar and Dark Horse both have over 1 billion views and Dark Horse is the second most watched video by a female artist. Anaconda was #10 on the most watched videos of 2014, getting beaten out by Meghan, Taylor, Sia, Iggy, Katy...even Latin artists like Shakira and Enrique that we thought were out of the race managed to rank higher than Nicki (Shakira actually had 2 entries). Out of all the most popular music videos by females of all time on Vevo, Anaconda doesn't even get into the top 10. Hell, I don't think it even gets into the top 20 (Super Bass is her most viewed video, by the way). All these videos also have a higher ratio of likes to dislikes, usually 3 million likes vs. 400k dislikes or something. Anaconda is nearly 2 million likes vs. 1 million dislikes, which suggests that most people really dislike this song. The amount of people who were aware of Anaconda is incomparable to the amount who were aware of Wrecking Ball, All About That Bass, Shake It Off, etc. Now, I've always been the first to say that online views, online ratings and music video statistics in general don't give the whole story and aren't always indicative of true success...but if Nicki wants to make it all about numbers and statistics, well, here it is. According to this, Anaconda was not as impactful as other videos.

Secondly, I find it funny that every time a black woman twerks or dances remotely s-xually in a music video, she's deemed to be owning her culture and it's typical of the racist media to not support that. Here's some news for you - anyone can shake their ass or dance s-xually. Yes, twerking is from the black community but at the end of the day, shaking your ass is involved in all kinds of dance and shaking your ass doesn't mean you're twerking. And not all black people view twerking in a positive light - many of them think it's trashy and not a good representation of their people. I'm sure most blacks living in the western world will know that dancing this s-xual is frowned upon, not because it's from the black community, but just because it's an overtly s-xual dance and therefore, not considered appropriate outside of nightclubs. It's treated in the same way that grinding and slut dropping is. Not appropriate dancing to do in front of kids, not something that should be done by minors, not something that should be done in formal settings. But so many blacks take it as some sort of personal insult when a white person is disgusted by the sight of twerking (some even think that disgust only occurs when it's a black girl doing it, which is not true, see the backlash against Miley's twerking). I don't think Nicki twerked to own her culture, it was to get validation from men for her looks, have a hit record and have a controversial video that would make the history books. If she wanted to own her culture, she wouldn't have represented it in such a stereotypical, borderline racist way (objectification of black women, jungle setting, bananas).