VIDEO: Beyoncé not a feminist?

[Cersei 56]

Men don't use the same tactics as women to sell their music,

 

 

 

I could post about 50 more.

[StrawberryBlond 14,120]

I agree with you in terms of her having gotten a head start in comparison to her peers, but I'm referring to why we constantly have these conversations about her with White women? Why is it that whenever her name is brought up with Feminism, we never ask black girls how they feel about her? Why are white people the face of something that's allegedly representing every skin tone, religion, gender, etc.? It's always people who have no grasp on what it's like to be that chiming in. And I agree, no one is free of criticism, but it seems like only white women have a say in what is right for feminism and what isn't, which is not fair one bit. It's like some of them don't care for the other issues, but once it must come up, they want to talk over them. I'm positive if you asked a group of young black girls how they feel about Beyonce and what their thoughts on feminism is, they will give you varying opinions. 

 

"But rest assured that a lot of white women do support women of other races and their needs and issues are coming more to the forefront of feminism nowadays." I applaud the white inter-sectionalists for having common sense; they're great and they do seem to be genuine. Those women are using their privilege as White people to help unspoken feminists, just like Beyonce is using her wealth privilege to do the same for young girls and to spread the idea of Feminism.

 

Though, I agree, I do think there are plenty of black musicians who started from nothing, who should get a lot of attention, but it may take a while for that to happen. There have actually been plenty of black female musicians who have shown girl power for each other and have used their ideas and thoughts for the cause, but they still go unnoticed... why? Obvious reasons. [See: Mary J Blige, Alicia Keys, Queen Latifah, MC Lyte, Brandy, Chrissette Michelle, and Janet freaking Jackson of ALL PEOPLE, who made several albums dedicated to those issues. Somewhere along the line, all of her hard work and dedication fell on blind eyes because of a wardrobe malfunction at the Superbowl. See? ​Everything she did in her hugely successful career just fell flat because of that event. In return, Janet got reduced to a boob. Those are all black women who have shown love for each other and other girls, but no one talks about it..]

 

So when someone as huge as Beyonce has the opportunity to do something like that, it's great. She's using her huge brand, and music, to further the cause. If someone like Bey (who comes from wealth privilege) makes it and inspires girls, there's no problem with that one bit. That still doesn't stop the Lena Dunhams and Emma Watsons of the world who come from major privilege from being the faces of the movement effortlessly, and no one makes a peep. And even if you haven't started from the bottom, that doesn't mean you can't inspire the younger generation to do good and want more for themselves. Who says you must have a rags to riches story to be noted as an inspiration? Let alone an inspiration for why a young girl possibly became a Feminist? ...

 

"There's some things I would like to say about the way the role models that blacks are emulating nowadays but I've been criticised before for thinking I know what's best for someone else's race and I guess that's fair." While I do think there are some ****ty individuals in the Black community not doing much to help the youth, there have been a plethora of Black men and women who have created organizations to empower the kids. Plenty who go to school daily despite their issues. Many who work hard. Many who are like this young boy. Those are the people who never get noticed or put in the forefront. So don't believe that the only one's in the forefront of the community are rappers glamorizing violence, etc. Check out The Dream Defenders, they hold several meetings a year bringing kids together though schools. It's amazing. Another group are the young protestors out in Ferguson, Missouri standing in the cold fighting an uphill battle. They are the true leaders, but they're being labeled as militant and dangerous. In no way am I saying that Beyonce should be held up as the prime example for hope in the black community, but she does give black children, specifically girls, the idea that they can be what they want. Just because there are people who don't look like them on the television screen or newspapers that are doing great, that doesn't mean they can't do that. In America, we're thrown images of black people (and other minorities) being thrown in jail, on d--gs, or being violent people, so seeing her literally at the top makes us black people happy. Contrary to popular belief, we do care, people just like to believe we don't.

 

But before I derail further: Something that I found was very interesting was when her album dropped. I have several black family members and friends (who are Black women) who listened to the album and liked it. They were arguing over which song was better. They watched the videos together, they dissected the themes, they listened to the lyrics, they danced and laughed while genuinely having a good time; all while remembering her past albums and works with DC. In a sense, she brought them together. They bonded over the album. They rejoiced that a black woman did that, and they felt like it was their own personal manifesto. Though they know they might never have as much as Beyonce has, they still enjoy her for representing them in some sort of way whereas it's in the womanhood aspect, s-xual aspect, or motherhood aspect, etc. There's this ongoing idea that many black people have broken families, and that's not the case when it comes to The Carters, and millions of black families (like my family and their past generations), so I can understand why many black women hold her up to such a high standard. I'm just starting to believe it's hard for non-PoC to understand that we can be "normal" too, whatever that means.

 

It just baffles me that white women like Annie Lennox (and some other feminists) will come down so hard on Rihanna, Nicki Minaj, and Beyoncé for showing skin, but will rarely come for Miley Cyrus for her elaborate schemes, also not even knowing the origins or "Twerking," which loosely comes from African Tribal Dancing. So are all of those women disrespecting themselves, too? Not only did she somewhat get a pass from them, they totally ignored the fact that she's disrespected many cultures in her recent performances. Some of them only see what they want to and it's sickening. They are also ignoring this recent Lena Dunham scandal with her sister. I wonder why.

 

tl;dr: Stop leaving the conversation to one group of women, and open it up to all. Stop ignoring the little girls who you're trying to shape up to be strong. You don't have to be on the same level as someone to be inspired by them. You don't have to have Jay Z money to want the same hustle he has. It's the notion that knowing you *could* aspire to inspire.

 

I don't know if it's just that feminism is cited as a "white women thing," but there seems to be a distinct lack of women of colour speaking feminist values. Which isn't very surprising when you consider the cultures of different races. Asian cultures are very much concerned with women being submissive and obedient to their husbands and men in general. That's why geishas were so popular in Japan and the subserviant woman ideal is highly sought after by men in southeast Asia. In western Asia, in countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Arab regions, arranged marriage is very common, and of course, controversial body covering rituals for women. Africa has similar ideals in their cultures too, with Chimamanda Adiche herself stating that she had problems identifying as a feminist in Nigeria because everyone would tell her it was "un-African" and that she had become "corrupted" by Western literature. It's not surprising that a lot of these women choose to continue following what they know. Even those growing up in Western society in free countries. So, maybe it's not that their voices are being suppressed, it's just that there's not enough to begin with.

 

You're touching upon an issue that I notice frequently: black artists, if they're not s-xual, cannot seem to make it in the business anymore (John Legend being the exception, and to a certain extent, Frank Ocean). The ones that have already achieved fame and were very popular once are now flopping. There have been two black females that have made a name for themselves in the UK: Laura Mvula, who started out last year, and Emeli Sande, who's been wildly popular since making it 2 years ago. But despite their success, they just couldn't get anywhere in America. I think their reluctance to be s-x objects is the reason. At its core, the career degradation of the black artist is largely a racist issue: labels don't want to sign and promote a black artist who isn't acting like a ho if they're a woman or rapping about d--gs and hos if they're a man. The suits have got into their heads that the public only want black artists who fufill this criteria. It explains why the three prominent black females of the moment (Beyonce, Rihanna and Nicki) are all s-xual and there's no time for the reserved Emeli Sande's of the world. My concern is that because black girls grow up only seeing s-xual black women making it, they're going to (rightfully) assume that this is the only way to be if you want to be famous. And also the only way to get attention and compliments. For white girls, there's plenty of options if they don't want to listen to s-xual white females but black girls don't have that choice as there are no prominent non-s-xual black females successful at the moment. So, I don't think I'm stepping out of line by saying that the black music scene needs more diversity and more conventional role models for the young.

 

Now, the bit that you said about Annie and other white feminists giving white artists a free pass for doing the same things that black artists are doing...I don't see that at all. I've been really reading up on feminist blogs and articles and been discussing with other feminists (mostly all white) and the vast majority think Miley is giving the cause a really bad name and the cultural appropriation and possible racist depictions of black women in her live shows was met with the biggest amount of derision. And most of them do know that she did not invent twerking (after all, it was a craze before Miley did it) and were saying that Miley looked ridiculous doing it because she didn't have an ass. And I've seen a lot of other white female artists get criticised by white feminists for their overly s-xualised dress sense (Ariana Grande) and inappropriate dancing (Cheryl Cole). There's also a lot of feminists who are against Meghan Trainor's All About That Bass because of how it demeans naturally skinny women. If anything, I think a lot of feminists are reluctant to criticise black women for fear of being called racist. And lets not forget the many white females before now who were criticised for their s-xuality by other women (Madonna, Spice Girls, Britney, Xtina, ***cat Dolls, Gaga...). I've never known a time when women in general were not criticised for their s-xuality. On the contrary, I think black women tend to get a free pass more. The comedian, Kathryn Ryan, made a joke about this once: she said that when black artists like Beyonce and Rihanna started out, people would say "there goes a strong, powerful, beautiful, black woman." But when white artists like Britney started out, people would say: "back in the closet, she must have had terrible parents." She then said that this was difficult for her as a child because all she ever wanted was to be a strong, powerful, beautiful, black woman (she's white). And I think she's completely right. And once again, there's a subtle racism at work here - we think black women should be s-xual as it's in their nature, but for a white girl to be s-xual goes against their image of perfect purity that they have always embodied (yeah right). No one ever stops to question that black girls are going through the same corruption from the music industry as the white girls. And about the Lena Dunham thing, well, that story just broke, so it'll take time to sink in. And for the record, I'm not a fan of hers, and I know other feminists who aren't either.

 

On the whole, you will see the world in a different light depending on your race. You may see issues that others don't see because it doesn't affect them, or like I've said above, think the exact opposite to another race based on your own experiences. But that's what makes discussion so interesting. And all the more reason why black women need to be included more in feminism.

[No Angel 128]

I don't know if it's just that feminism is cited as a "white women thing," but there seems to be a distinct lack of women of colour speaking feminist values. Which isn't very surprising when you consider the cultures of different races. Asian cultures are very much concerned with women being submissive and obedient to their husbands and men in general. That's why geishas were so popular in Japan and the subserviant woman ideal is highly sought after by men in southeast Asia. In western Asia, in countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Arab regions, arranged marriage is very common, and of course, controversial body covering rituals for women. Africa has similar ideals in their cultures too, with Chimamanda Adiche herself stating that she had problems identifying as a feminist in Nigeria because everyone would tell her it was "un-African" and that she had become "corrupted" by Western literature. It's not surprising that a lot of these women choose to continue following what they know. Even those growing up in Western society in free countries. So, maybe it's not that their voices are being suppressed, it's just that there's not enough to begin with.

 

You're touching upon an issue that I notice frequently: black artists, if they're not s-xual, cannot seem to make it in the business anymore (John Legend being the exception, and to a certain extent, Frank Ocean). The ones that have already achieved fame and were very popular once are now flopping. There have been two black females that have made a name for themselves in the UK: Laura Mvula, who started out last year, and Emeli Sande, who's been wildly popular since making it 2 years ago. But despite their success, they just couldn't get anywhere in America. I think their reluctance to be s-x objects is the reason. At its core, the career degradation of the black artist is largely a racist issue: labels don't want to sign and promote a black artist who isn't acting like a ho if they're a woman or rapping about d--gs and hos if they're a man. The suits have got into their heads that the public only want black artists who fufill this criteria. It explains why the three prominent black females of the moment (Beyonce, Rihanna and Nicki) are all s-xual and there's no time for the reserved Emeli Sande's of the world. My concern is that because black girls grow up only seeing s-xual black women making it, they're going to (rightfully) assume that this is the only way to be if you want to be famous. And also the only way to get attention and compliments. For white girls, there's plenty of options if they don't want to listen to s-xual white females but black girls don't have that choice as there are no prominent non-s-xual black females successful at the moment. So, I don't think I'm stepping out of line by saying that the black music scene needs more diversity and more conventional role models for the young.

 

Now, the bit that you said about Annie and other white feminists giving white artists a free pass for doing the same things that black artists are doing...I don't see that at all. I've been really reading up on feminist blogs and articles and been discussing with other feminists (mostly all white) and the vast majority think Miley is giving the cause a really bad name and the cultural appropriation and possible racist depictions of black women in her live shows was met with the biggest amount of derision. And most of them do know that she did not invent twerking (after all, it was a craze before Miley did it) and were saying that Miley looked ridiculous doing it because she didn't have an ass. And I've seen a lot of other white female artists get criticised by white feminists for their overly s-xualised dress sense (Ariana Grande) and inappropriate dancing (Cheryl Cole). There's also a lot of feminists who are against Meghan Trainor's All About That Bass because of how it demeans naturally skinny women. If anything, I think a lot of feminists are reluctant to criticise black women for fear of being called racist. And lets not forget the many white females before now who were criticised for their s-xuality by other women (Madonna, Spice Girls, Britney, Xtina, ***cat Dolls, Gaga...). I've never known a time when women in general were not criticised for their s-xuality. On the contrary, I think black women tend to get a free pass more. The comedian, Kathryn Ryan, made a joke about this once: she said that when black artists like Beyonce and Rihanna started out, people would say "there goes a strong, powerful, beautiful, black woman." But when white artists like Britney started out, people would say: "back in the closet, she must have had terrible parents." She then said that this was difficult for her as a child because all she ever wanted was to be a strong, powerful, beautiful, black woman (she's white). And I think she's completely right. And once again, there's a subtle racism at work here - we think black women should be s-xual as it's in their nature, but for a white girl to be s-xual goes against their image of perfect purity that they have always embodied (yeah right). No one ever stops to question that black girls are going through the same corruption from the music industry as the white girls. And about the Lena Dunham thing, well, that story just broke, so it'll take time to sink in. And for the record, I'm not a fan of hers, and I know other feminists who aren't either.

 

On the whole, you will see the world in a different light depending on your race. You may see issues that others don't see because it doesn't affect them, or like I've said above, think the exact opposite to another race based on your own experiences. But that's what makes discussion so interesting. And all the more reason why black women need to be included more in feminism.

 

1. Agreed. Though I feel like it could be a combo of both not being represented like they should, and not being able to personally stand up for themselves in terms of the Western feminism trend. Chimamanda's speech was actually very insightful, especially the part where she touched down on initially believing the idea of Feminism as a "white person's" thing and that it had no place in her culture and that it was kind of insignificant given where she was from.

 

2. I see what you're saying here, and I agree with how you shouldn't sell yourself short of your talents by taking off your clothing, and that's something I don't see wrong. The three primary girls (I follow them more often) I see get judged more often in my eyes. Something I'm still weary about is the support WoC don't receive? Maybe it's just me, but whenever something awful such as s-xual assault / rape / iCloud Nude photo scandal happens, there are many Mainstream feminists coming to the aid of the likes of Jennifer Lawrence, but pretty big stars like Gabrielle Union (who's known in the mainstream world) don't get that kind of support? There was subjects of it being considered a crime, which it was, but there was no one there to support Union. She was subject to memes of all sort. It was a joke basically.

 

Also, something I wondered: There's many black American artists out here now, who aren't getting much attention, but you have your Ariana's and Adele's and Iggy's doing the same kind of music... do you think it's because people are surprised at them for being White and doing *Urban* music, or do you think it's because they just have catchy music? (Serious question, btw!)

 

*I also want to note that while Beyonce has been more blatant about her s-xuality recently, that has never stopped her from being viewed as a talented artist, and her "riskiness" stays on the stage and in her career, they've never really mixed outside of that, unlike Rih and Nicki imo.

 

3. I think in that aspect (with Annie Lennox) I again find it difficult to grasp why we only have these conversations with older white women. I'm not sure if the people asking the questions don't have certain connections to feminists of different cultures, or if they just don't understand the idea of inter-sectionalism? And I always want to keep in mind that no one is free from criticism, but it feels like *always* the Feminists who are white who criticize WoC are always coming from a place of Ignorance(?) if that makes sense. Like they find it hard to believe that there are others who live their lives differently from theirs(?) It feels like a personal attack in the way some of them say it. Like they're trying to dictate the lives of WoC rather than understand, you know?

 

It's almost like a reverse type of experience. Black girls need to keep their clothes on, but it's fine for White women to do it, because they aren't inherently s-xual or viewed as that by other people. I believe that many women (around Lennox's age) have jaded ideas of it all in this day and age. 

 

-> I also see parallels with this and the Civil Rights movement; There are older feminists who sort of think their beliefs are still relevant to today, and some are, but times are different. Similar to the Civil Rights leaders from the 50s-60s who still go on now, but their ideas of "revolution" are old and outdated in 2014. But they still believe that they are right and we must follow those ideas, and if not... we aren't "good enough." I hope that makes sense.

 

...

By the way, I'm sorry if I come on too strong about this! I just like these topics. We've have a few exchanges before on here, and I don't want to come off as if I'm yelling at you or anything. It's good to have level-headed debates on the internet.. sometimes they can get nasty, and I don't want it to be that way. :)