ARTPOP: Not undefined, but all encompassing.

[XoXoJoanneGaga 629]

I get what you're saying, but my problem with the album is that when the concept is essentially "anything and everything", expectations can easily become boundless. So I look at the finished product and despite it being a great, fun album that I enjoy a lot, I can't shake the feeling of "This is all she did, when there were limitless possibilities and no conceptual restraints"? 

 

The concept itself is very interesting and there's a lot to dissect there, but that's not really true for the actual music.

[Ladle Ghoulash 11,141]

Of course its going to continually change, which is why I said hopefully she does another 180. But I feel like you're trying to say its just barely getting better. As if shes just barely doing what she wants now and I think shes been doing that for quite some time. She parted ways with Troy a long time ago now.

 

I don't like her style right now. I don't have to like it. Shes Gaga, of course shes going to change.

But, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying you're judging it prematurely because it's continuously getting better and I don't think the full potential has been met. I think it's getting there and will continue to get there, but, not yet.

 

As far as the Troy situation, parting ways with your manager of 5 years is a huge deal. It leaves a lot of things up in the air (not to mention that Gaga was without a manager for several months and, considering that the ARTPOP era is only like...8 months old, that's a fair portion of it, not to mention the management issues that were going on in the months prior). 

 

I think that, since Bobby Campbell got involved things have gotten noticeably better and will continue to get better. 

I get what you're saying, but my problem with the album is that when the concept is essentially "anything and everything", expectations can easily become boundless. So I look at the finished product and despite it being a great, fun album that I enjoy a lot, I can't shake the feeling of "This is all she did, when there were limitless possibilities and no conceptual restraints"? 

 

The concept itself is very interesting and there's a lot to dissect there, but that's not really true for the actual music.

I think the lack of conceptual restraints were still being applied to the framework of pop, though. And I don't necessarily think that that means it's any less creative because that's what she wanted it to be. 

Of course its going to continually change, which is why I said hopefully she does another 180. But I feel like you're trying to say its just barely getting better. As if shes just barely doing what she wants now and I think shes been doing that for quite some time. She parted ways with Troy a long time ago now.

 

I don't like her style right now. I don't have to like it. Shes Gaga, of course shes going to change.

 

I do think its her most unpolished era thus far. She looks cheap with that ugly wig and seashell bra. Why are you trying to act like I don't have the right to say I dislike it?

But...I never said you don't have the right to dislike it. Of course you can. But, you're saying that to someone who obviously disagrees with you. 

[Ladle Ghoulash 11,141]

And, at the end of the day, not to try and debase any counter arguments, but a lot of the ARTPOP era is about defying expectations. A lot of the counter arguments you guys have brought forth have been based upon your expectations. What Gaga is doing is what Gaga is doing and if you don't like it, that's absolutely fine, but that doesn't mean that you have to run around trying to place your expectations on her. 

[blacklistedd 599]

But, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying you're judging it prematurely because it's continuously getting better and I don't think the full potential has been met. I think it's getting there and will continue to get there, but, not yet.

 

But...I never said you don't have the right to dislike it. Of course you can. But, you're saying that to someone who obviously disagrees with you. 

 

No, the potential has not been met and whether or not she'll meet her potential this era it doesn't seem like anythings improving. As I said, because I think her style continues to look even uglier than it was in november. Its getting worse imo.

[XoXoJoanneGaga 629]

And, at the end of the day, not to try and debase any counter arguments, but a lot of the ARTPOP era is about defying expectations. A lot of the counter arguments you guys have brought forth have been based upon your expectations. What Gaga is doing is what Gaga is doing and if you don't like it, that's absolutely fine, but that doesn't mean that you have to run around trying to place your expectations on her. 

Of course, and I do like what she's doing for the most part, but that argument really does diffuse all critical discussion cause it could be applied to anything that people do or don't like. It's very black and white

[Ladle Ghoulash 11,141]

No, the potential has not been met and whether or not she'll meet her potential this era it doesn't seem like anythings improving. As I said, because I think her style continues to look even uglier than it was in november. Its getting worse imo.

Okay, again, your opinion and expectations (not to mention that I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying entirely)

[blacklistedd 599]

Okay, again, your opinion and expectations (not to mention that I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying entirely)

 

Im not misunderstanding anything. You think everythings improving and that shes only going to get better from here because shes doing what she wants and is experiencing artistic freedom. I don't think things look like they are improving or getting better and better stylistically anyway.

 

And you obviously have expectations projected onto her as well considering you keep mentioning that you don't think potential has been met yet.

[Ladle Ghoulash 11,141]

Of course, and I do like what she's doing for the most part, but that argument really does diffuse all critical discussion cause it could be applied to anything that people do or don't like. It's very black and white

I don't think it does, honestly. I think that criticisms are more than welcome, but, criticisms are often based upon an expectation or preconceived notion you had upon entering the experience of whatever it is you're critiquing and have to do with what you wanted it to be, as opposed to what it was. 

Im not misunderstanding anything. You think everythings improving and that shes only going to get better from here because shes doing what she wants and is experiencing artistic freedom. I don't think things look like they are improving or getting better and better stylistically anyway.

 

And you obviously have expectations projected onto her as well considering you keep mentioning that you don't think potential has been met yet.

But, again, that's all subject to opinion.

 

And, no, my only expectation is that she does what wants and does it passionate because that's what she does. As far as the "unmet potential" comment having anything to do with expectations: that comment is based on things that she has recently said in regards to the coming months being "the real beginning of the ARTPOP era".

[blacklistedd 599]

I don't think it does, honestly. I think that criticisms are more than welcome, but, criticisms are often based upon an expectation or preconceived notion you had upon entering the experience of whatever it is you're critiquing and have to do with what you wanted it to be, as opposed to what it was. 

 

I am criticizing what it is though. Why can't you see that? Thats what you're not understanding. Otherwise you're kind of saying that I don't have to like it but I shouldn't really criticize anything because ultimately it is what shes doing and I either accept it or dont' say anything at all.

I don't think it does, honestly. I think that criticisms are more than welcome, but, criticisms are often based upon an expectation or preconceived notion you had upon entering the experience of whatever it is you're critiquing and have to do with what you wanted it to be, as opposed to what it was. 

But, again, that's all subject to opinion.

 

And, no, my only expectation is that she does what wants and does it passionate because that's what she does. As far as the "unmet potential" comment having anything to do with expectations: that comment is based on things that she has recently said in regards to the coming months being "the real beginning of the ARTPOP era".

 

Yeah but that stance is basically saying there should be no criticism and we should just accept everything she does because its what she wants to do. You're negating any form of criticism or opinion. Because me saying that I think this era has been stylistically uglier than her previous eras, is by you being said to be non-valid because its just me projecting my expectations on her as opposed to just having a subjective opinion about what shes doing. What exactly makes that non-subjective?

[Ladle Ghoulash 11,141]

I am criticizing what it is though. Why can't you see that? Thats what you're not understanding. Otherwise you're kind of saying that I don't have to like it but I shouldn't really criticize anything because ultimately it is what shes doing and I either accept it or dont' say anything at all.

But, I absolutely see that. I'm not saying to not say anything at all, I'm saying that everything is more fun when you just appreciate it for what it is. 

[blacklistedd 599]

But, I absolutely see that. I'm not saying to not say anything at all, I'm saying that everything is more fun when you just appreciate it for what it is. 

 

Everythings more fun when you just accept what shes doing and don't care that I think its ugly. Do you not see how that sounds kind of silly though?

 

And even so, just because I think her style has looked cheaper, am I not going to her concert? Am I not still following her because I still like her? I appreciate Gaga, I just think her style looks cheap these days. Thats just my opinion. You're acting like im denouncing her definitively or something.

[Ladle Ghoulash 11,141]

I am criticizing what it is though. Why can't you see that? Thats what you're not understanding. Otherwise you're kind of saying that I don't have to like it but I shouldn't really criticize anything because ultimately it is what shes doing and I either accept it or dont' say anything at all.

 

Yeah but that stance is basically saying there should be no criticism and we should just accept everything she does because its what she wants to do. You're negating any form of criticism or opinion. Because me saying that I think this era has been stylistically uglier than her previous eras, is by you being said to be non-valid because its just me projecting my expectations on her as opposed to just having a subjective opinion about what shes doing. What exactly makes that non-subjective?

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree because I think we're pretty far from seeing eye to eye on this and I don't think either of us are really hearing each other out. 

[TheFamexXx 0]

You explained it very well, i just seem to can't seem to get into it, i don't hate it, i just don't care for it, i like the previous albums because they explored certain issues and themes and they were like clean, you could tell transition from one era to another, ARTPOP to me is all over the place, fashion wise, music wise etc... some people hated BTW because it was ''too preachy'' tho... So at the end everything comes down to perception and personal preference...

[blacklistedd 599]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree because I think we're pretty far from seeing eye to eye on this and I don't think either of us are really hearing each other out. 

 

You keep saying that I don't understand what you're saying but I very clearly do.

You're telling me to just appreciate the fact that shes holding her own but just because I have a negative opinion of her current aesthetic does not mean that I don't appreciate her.

[Ladle Ghoulash 11,141]

Everythings more fun when you just accept what shes doing and don't care that I think its ugly. Do you not see how that sounds kind of silly though?

 

And even so, just because I think her style has looked cheaper, am I not going to her concert? Am I not still following her because I still like her? I appreciate Gaga, I just think her style looks cheap these days. Thats just my opinion. You're acting like im denouncing her definitively or something.

Admittedly, that did sound silly and it is a statement really only meant for a specific context. No, I know you're not. I guess I'm just frustrated by how this fanbase has been treating her. 

You keep saying that I don't understand what you're saying but I very clearly do.

You're telling me to just appreciate the fact that shes holding her own but just because I have a negative opinion of her current aesthetic does not mean that I don't appreciate her.

The reason why I'm saying that I don't think you're understanding me is because I think that you've been insinuating things that I haven't actually said and made it seem like that's what I've said. 

 

And, of course you having a negative opinion doesn't mean that you don't appreciate her. I think it's just that we're having this conversation in the context of this thread and that's just coloring the way I look at what you're saying.