RS: Why Erotica and SEX still matter

[dlioncourt91 765]

3 hours ago, Snow said:

@StrawberryBlond oh what surprise, it's you again in a M thread... I suggest you re-read the article and the one I posted. And just yu know, no matter how you try to twist things, Erotica is a legendary album with a huge impact/influence in entertainment history and is semented there along with everything else during that era, like S.E.X. Nothing can erase or change that. It was a big deal for female entertainers as well.

 

Amen!

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

3 hours ago, Snow said:

@StrawberryBlond oh what surprise, it's you again in a M thread... I suggest you re-read the article and the one I posted. And just yu know, no matter how you try to twist things, Erotica is a legendary album with a huge impact/influence in entertainment history and is semented there along with everything else during that era, like S.E.X. Nothing can erase or change that. It was a big deal for female entertainers as well.

I am allowed to post where I please, you know. There's no rule that states you can only post about artists you like. You just don't like what I write. And I did read the articles, they didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. I never said that Erotica and SEX didn't have an impact. They did, at the time. I just think their impact in later years is simply not true. Most people from the current generation have never heard the album or looked at the book. I didn't listen to Erotica until 2012, when I was 23. I didn't see the entirety of the photos from SEX until last year (found a video on YouTube where someone flicked through every page). Like every generation that has come before them, young people today have gained inspiration from their own generation or possibly the one that came just before them. But they're not going all the way back listening to albums from 1992 (unless they're an absolute music nerd like me) or buying huge, heavy, expensive coffee table books (most young people use e-readers today anyway). Most people don't have the time to listen to today's music. They certainly can't be bothered going back in time. Most young people I encounter couldn't care less about Madonna's work apart from her biggest hits and nothing from Erotica came close to being a huge hit. I was 3 when Erotica came out and I didn't have a clue about this album until I became a teenager. Like I said, I didn't listen to it until 2012. Therefore, nothing that I thought about sex or the genre of music was influenced by that album. You just don't seem to realise how young people actually think and are laying aside all reason just because you want to put Madonna in the best light possible as you're a fan.

I also notice that Madonna fans are all too happy to praise her for being borderline bitchy and speaking her mind because she's a strong woman...but the minute a woman who isn't a Madonna fan does the same thing, she gets dragged and put in her place. Madonna fans don't like women who aren't Madonna fans, that's what has been the overriding message to me ever since the BTW/EY controversy. It's a huge double standard built into their philosophy of loving strong women. They think Madonna speaks for all women, has done nothing but good for women and don't want to think anyone is smarter or more enlightened than their queen.

[scallywally 626]

Spoiler

you think youre smarter and enlightened, how ironic.

 

[Spock 20,290]

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

  I am allowed to post where I please, you know. There's no rule that states you can only post about artists you like. You just don't like what I write. And I did read the articles, they didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. I never said that Erotica and SEX didn't have an impact. They did, at the time. I just think their impact in later years is simply not true. Most people from the current generation have never heard the album or looked at the book. I didn't listen to Erotica until 2012, when I was 23. I didn't see the entirety of the photos from SEX until last year (found a video on YouTube where someone flicked through every page). Like every generation that has come before them, young people today have gained inspiration from their own generation or possibly the one that came just before them. But they're not going all the way back listening to albums from 1992 (unless they're an absolute music nerd like me) or buying huge, heavy, expensive coffee table books (most young people use e-readers today anyway). Most people don't have the time to listen to today's music. They certainly can't be bothered going back in time. Most young people I encounter couldn't care less about Madonna's work apart from her biggest hits and nothing from Erotica came close to being a huge hit. I was 3 when Erotica came out and I didn't have a clue about this album until I became a teenager. Like I said, I didn't listen to it until 2012. Therefore, nothing that I thought about sex or the genre of music was influenced by that album. You just don't seem to realise how young people actually think and are laying aside all reason just because you want to put Madonna in the best light possible as you're a fan.

I also notice that Madonna fans are all too happy to praise her for being borderline bitchy and speaking her mind because she's a strong woman...but the minute a woman who isn't a Madonna fan does the same thing, she gets dragged and put in her place. Madonna fans don't like women who aren't Madonna fans, that's what has been the overriding message to me ever since the BTW/EY controversy. It's a huge double standard built into their philosophy of loving strong women. They think Madonna speaks for all women, has done nothing but good for women and don't want to think anyone is smarter or more enlightened than their queen.

You think way to much of your contribution to any discussion, especially what people think of your opinion... "you just don't like what I have to say"  

I guess you can confidently come for people like Taylor or whatever because you will always get a couple of pressed clowns who like your posts or say exacLTy!!1!1!1!!!! at those walls of texts, but coming for Erotica is a new level of delusion. 

Of course the impact the album had at the time of release and today is completely different, even a five year old could tell you that. But saying it doesn't have any impact today is just complete lies. Just because something isn't known or cared for by a majority of the masses today does not mean it doesn't have any impact. Filmmaking without Hitchcock or hundreds of others, literature without Poe  and others etc would not be the same today. Not that I'm comparing Madonna to them, but just proving how stupid what you're saying is. I don't see millenials tweeting about how amazing Vertigo is, yet it's use of color, plot devices, characters and technical work place it as one of the most influential films ever. Being forgotten =|= not having impact. 

Erotica launched a conversation about sex, conservativism and double standards, not just in entertainment, but in pop culture as whole that just didn't happen before. Today, something like Bangerz wouldnt have happened without it, or the sexual liberation of any pop singer from the Britney days, because Erotica set the stage and made it possible. Not to mention what she continued doing for the LGBT community and AIDS awareness  

And your complete off topic and ridiculous excuse about young people today reading ebooks made me cackle  

"Madonna fans don't like women who aren't Madonna fans" this is false. We just don't like uninformed delusional women coming in and trying to minimize the impact of an album that is widely considered to be one of the most influential albums of the last decades 

[Snow 1,582]

31 minutes ago, Spock said:

You think way to much of your contribution to any discussion, especially what people think of your opinion... "you just don't like what I have to say"  

I guess you can confidently come for people like Taylor or whatever because you will always get a couple of pressed clowns who like your posts or say exacLTy!!1!1!1!!!! at those walls of texts, but coming for Erotica is a new level of delusion. 

Of course the impact the album had at the time of release and today is completely different, even a five year old could tell you that. But saying it doesn't have any impact today is just complete lies. Just because something isn't known or cared for by a majority of the masses today does not mean it doesn't have any impact. Filmmaking without Hitchcock or hundreds of others, literature without Poe  and others etc would not be the same today. Not that I'm comparing Madonna to them, but just proving how stupid what you're saying is. I don't see millenials tweeting about how amazing Vertigo is, yet it's use of color, plot devices, characters and technical work place it as one of the most influential films ever. Being forgotten =|= not having impact. 

Erotica launched a conversation about sex, conservativism and double standards, not just in entertainment, but in pop culture as whole that just didn't happen before. Today, something like Bangerz wouldnt have happened without it, or the sexual liberation of any pop singer from the Britney days, because Erotica set the stage and made it possible. Not to mention what she continued doing for the LGBT community and AIDS awareness  

And your complete off topic and ridiculous excuse about young people today reading ebooks made me cackle  

"Madonna fans don't like women who aren't Madonna fans" this is false. We just don't like uninformed delusional women coming in and trying to minimize the impact of an album that is widely considered to be one of the most influential albums of the last decades 

Indeed & AMEN!! Thank you for replying

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

4 hours ago, Spock said:

You think way to much of your contribution to any discussion, especially what people think of your opinion... "you just don't like what I have to say"  

I guess you can confidently come for people like Taylor or whatever because you will always get a couple of pressed clowns who like your posts or say exacLTy!!1!1!1!!!! at those walls of texts, but coming for Erotica is a new level of delusion. 

Of course the impact the album had at the time of release and today is completely different, even a five year old could tell you that. But saying it doesn't have any impact today is just complete lies. Just because something isn't known or cared for by a majority of the masses today does not mean it doesn't have any impact. Filmmaking without Hitchcock or hundreds of others, literature without Poe  and others etc would not be the same today. Not that I'm comparing Madonna to them, but just proving how stupid what you're saying is. I don't see millenials tweeting about how amazing Vertigo is, yet it's use of color, plot devices, characters and technical work place it as one of the most influential films ever. Being forgotten =|= not having impact. 

Erotica launched a conversation about sex, conservativism and double standards, not just in entertainment, but in pop culture as whole that just didn't happen before. Today, something like Bangerz wouldnt have happened without it, or the sexual liberation of any pop singer from the Britney days, because Erotica set the stage and made it possible. Not to mention what she continued doing for the LGBT community and AIDS awareness  

And your complete off topic and ridiculous excuse about young people today reading ebooks made me cackle  

"Madonna fans don't like women who aren't Madonna fans" this is false. We just don't like uninformed delusional women coming in and trying to minimize the impact of an album that is widely considered to be one of the most influential albums of the last decades 

Excuse me? I'm just speaking on a forum, as is my right to do. Everyone's contribution matters. How dare you say it doesn't. Pardon me for just telling it like it is.

So, anyone who doesn't agree with your personal opinion is a "pressed clown?" Now who's thinking too highly of their opinion? And you've got a wall of text now, so, you've contradicted yourself there.

Your work can only have impact if the person who's making art knows of the piece of work and was directly inspired by it. If they've never listened to it or isn't that familiar with it, how could they be inspired? You've directly contradicted yourself by saying that something can have impact even if people don't know or don't care for it. How is that possible?

People keep on going on about how "pop music would look very different today if it weren't for Madonna" but come on, don't act as if someone like her wouldn't have come along eventually. P*rn has only developed with time, society has developed a higher desire for explictness, it was going to happen eventually. Don't act as if someone wouldn't have done everything she's done eventually. People act as if pop never would have gone anywhere without her in particular and it's just not true. I once heard a woman say: "I love Madonna, every female artist has been inspired by her in some way." Uh...no. There are plenty of female artists out there who are the antithesis of Madonna and young women today certainly aren't inspired by her. It's once again a case of the legends getting way too much credit. It's a case across the whole of music, not just Madonna. Life in general. The older generations think they're responsible for everything today and that the world would have ground to a halt without them. They need to get over themselves.

How is the line about ebooks funny? There's a reason why bookshops are shutting down in their hundreds. I don't know of any young person who peruses massive hardback books of photos nowadays unless they're a photography student. How many young people today have actually gone through the entire SEX book? I mean, really now?

But you've just proved my point. If Madonna fans don't like what a woman has to say about her, they call her uninformed and delusional. You know, the same things Madonna was likely called back in the day. And most of Madonna's fans around today are men, so it's even more ironic how they're lecturing a woman about what she can and can't say/believe. If you support Madonna speaking her mind, why can't I speak mine? I always feel so attacked whenever I enter discussion about Madonna around here and it's not right. Madonna fought against the putting down of women who speak their mind. You would do well to practice what she preaches. I can say whatever I want and I have a right to. Don't dare try to silence me.

[Spock 20,290]

16 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Excuse me? I'm just speaking on a forum, as is my right to do. Everyone's contribution matters. How dare you say it doesn't. Pardon me for just telling it like it is.

So, anyone who doesn't agree with your personal opinion is a "pressed clown?" Now who's thinking too highly of their opinion? And you've got a wall of text now, so, you've contradicted yourself there.

Your work can only have impact if the person who's making art knows of the piece of work and was directly inspired by it. If they've never listened to it or isn't that familiar with it, how could they be inspired? You've directly contradicted yourself by saying that something can have impact even if people don't know or don't care for it. How is that possible?

People keep on going on about how "pop music would look very different today if it weren't for Madonna" but come on, don't act as if someone like her wouldn't have come along eventually. P*rn has only developed with time, society has developed a higher desire for explictness, it was going to happen eventually. Don't act as if someone wouldn't have done everything she's done eventually. People act as if pop never would have gone anywhere without her in particular and it's just not true. I once heard a woman say: "I love Madonna, every female artist has been inspired by her in some way." Uh...no. There are plenty of female artists out there who are the antithesis of Madonna and young women today certainly aren't inspired by her. It's once again a case of the legends getting way too much credit. It's a case across the whole of music, not just Madonna. Life in general. The older generations think they're responsible for everything today and that the world would have ground to a halt without them. They need to get over themselves.

How is the line about ebooks funny? There's a reason why bookshops are shutting down in their hundreds. I don't know of any young person who peruses massive hardback books of photos nowadays unless they're a photography student. How many young people today have actually gone through the entire SEX book? I mean, really now?

But you've just proved my point. If Madonna fans don't like what a woman has to say about her, they call her uninformed and delusional. You know, the same things Madonna was likely called back in the day. And most of Madonna's fans around today are men, so it's even more ironic how they're lecturing a woman about what she can and can't say/believe. If you support Madonna speaking her mind, why can't I speak mine? I always feel so attacked whenever I enter discussion about Madonna around here and it's not right. Madonna fought against the putting down of women who speak their mind. You would do well to practice what she preaches. I can say whatever I want and I have a right to. Don't dare try to silence me.

Where am I saying your contribution doesn't matter? I'm saying that you think you're contribution matters more than everyone else's, going by your general superior tone in every single one of your posts and the way you seem to think people perceive them.

And to answer to your question no. You very well know that people who hate on artists like Taylor is because of their success, or make up stupid reasons to hide behind it. And you also should know since they're the ones that most of the time respond to your posts, but I digress.

It doesn't matter that someone would have come along eventually. What matters is that she was first, and paved the way for countless female artists. Why isn't Whitney mentioned in this conversation? Or Cyndi? Or Janet? or the others? Because Madonna was the one to do it.

Of course artists have different inspirations, but if her contribution was so unimportant as you paint it, why does almost every single female artist credit her as an inspiration? Why are SEX and Erotica still talked about today? Why is she credited with having invented modern pop concerts with costume changes and five act structure? Why was she one of the first artists to take music videos seriously and help push MTV and music video as a whole? Madonna and the other 80s artists in her tier are the ones who made pop music what it is today. It's not about older generations thinking they're responsible for everything, it's just a fact.

You answered to your question yourself. The book is up on Youtube and PDFs are everywhere, so any millennial capable of typing words on google can find it.

Again with the dramatics   People attack you not because you're a woman, but because of your condescending tone with which you are trying to put down her accomplishments, and pass off your misinformation as true facts

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

22 hours ago, Spock said:

Where am I saying your contribution doesn't matter? I'm saying that you think you're contribution matters more than everyone else's, going by your general superior tone in every single one of your posts and the way you seem to think people perceive them.

And to answer to your question no. You very well know that people who hate on artists like Taylor is because of their success, or make up stupid reasons to hide behind it. And you also should know since they're the ones that most of the time respond to your posts, but I digress.

It doesn't matter that someone would have come along eventually. What matters is that she was first, and paved the way for countless female artists. Why isn't Whitney mentioned in this conversation? Or Cyndi? Or Janet? or the others? Because Madonna was the one to do it.

Of course artists have different inspirations, but if her contribution was so unimportant as you paint it, why does almost every single female artist credit her as an inspiration? Why are SEX and Erotica still talked about today? Why is she credited with having invented modern pop concerts with costume changes and five act structure? Why was she one of the first artists to take music videos seriously and help push MTV and music video as a whole? Madonna and the other 80s artists in her tier are the ones who made pop music what it is today. It's not about older generations thinking they're responsible for everything, it's just a fact.

You answered to your question yourself. The book is up on Youtube and PDFs are everywhere, so any millennial capable of typing words on google can find it.

Again with the dramatics   People attack you not because you're a woman, but because of your condescending tone with which you are trying to put down her accomplishments, and pass off your misinformation as true facts

I think "You think way to much of your contribution to any discussion" is basically saying that my contribution doesn't matter. You're filing it away under a category that isn't worth paying full attention to. No, I don't think my contribution matters more than everyone else's and I'm not intending my tone to be superior. It's just that text online will make some stuff come across more rudely than intended. I certainly don't think that everyone respects them either. You're proof of that. If I may say so, I think you are the one who overvalues your input and has a superior tone.

Of course some people like to hate on the likes of Taylor due to her success and while I've always stated that I think she has far too much success for her limited talent, it's her actual music itself and her personality that I'm most critical of, with extremely good reason. I've got a very low tolerance for celebrities who act like they're better than everyone else. I don't make up reasons, I have very good, researched reasons. I don't really care why people like my posts about her, as long as they see through her facade, that's cool with me. But in any case, I really don't care how big the artist is or how many fans they have or even if my opinion will be welcomed. I believe no one is immune to criticism, especially not celebrities, who've put themselves forward to be judged.

Cher and Debbie Harry did sexual stuff before Madonna. When Madonna started out, she was actually called a low rent Debbie Harry by many and the critics and award committees preferred Cyndi Lauper. It's just that Madonna had the marketing abilities to turn herself into a much bigger superstar than any of these women. She didn't write all her material at the beginning and she certainly didn't have the best voice or even stunning beauty. It was all marketing and knowing the right people that got her to where she is. Her debut album was awful, I don't know how it even got made. It wasn't until True Blue that she took full control over her work and it actually got better.

I'm saying female artists of today aren't inspired by her, not ones from the early days. I think when young females say she was an inspiration, they simply mean that they heard her songs when they were young. If they're such fans, why do you never see them at her concerts or trying to pose for pictures with her at events? Mentioning Madonna almost seems like a female duty now but I doubt how much she actually inspires them. SEX and Erotica are only talked about in publications such as Rolling Stone today, or by online music nerds (like me) or by her fans. The rest of the world, the general public, have moved on. I mean, very few people actually listen to their old CDs anymore. Most albums from the 90's are in boxes in attics and garages or in charity shops now. Most people also have a very rose-tinted view when it comes to the past. They go on about how a certain album was so amazing and then I ask them when was the last time they listened to it and they admit it was years ago. Then they go back and listen and admit it wasn't as good as they remembered. I found Erotica somewhat of a disappointing listen. Sure, it's still one of her better albums, but nowhere near as good or as dirty as it had been built up to be all these years. Erotica, Where Life Begins and Did You Do It? are the only ones on the entire album that actually concern any level of naughtiness or an explicit nature, it's all suggestion. If Did You Do It? wasn't included on the album as originally intended, it wouldn't even have got a parental advisory sticker. I was listening to it wondering where all these supposedly dirty lyrics were that I'd heard so much about all these years. And I'm not debating her contribution to live pop concert experiences or music videos (although it was more MJ who started taking videos really seriously). My point about the older generations is that yes, they were first, but someone would have done it eventually. It's an achievement to be first, but that's all it'll ever be. I was born in 1989 and I can honestly say that Madonna has never inspired me. I started to first hear her work in 2000 but never saw her as an figure of inspiration in any way. Like most people, I looked up to and was inspired by those from my generation. Why have the younger generations always got to kiss up to the older ones, bow down and be grateful? They never did it to their elders. My parents were baby boomers and they said that no one would have dreamed of playing anything on the radio that wasn't current back then, that the youth didn't want to listen to music from their parents generation, they wanted the new stuff. They're actually at a loss when they watch singing talent shows and see young aspiring singers singing songs from years ago, questioning why they don't want to be more contemporary.

Yeah, but the point is, most people of my age aren't even that intuitive. They don't think about looking up a book on YouTube, even if it is just visuals. I'm just a bit unusual that way. I just don't see any interest from the current generation in that book. Why would they? They can see every depraved sex act for free at the click of a button, much more explicit than the SEX book, so it's nothing new or shocking to them.

Oh, accusing a woman of being dramatic, now? How stereotypical. I'm just telling the truth. It's your condescending tone I'm taking issue with, the one you don't seem to think you have. You seem to think if someone doesn't share your opinion, it's not worth listening to. I do research, I try not to post misinformation. I also have the aim of being a realist.