Katy Perry - Bon Appétit ft. Migos

[Sister 9,907]

I don't see the controversy with this video at all, it's typical of today's standards and totally Katy Kat, also the song seems her usual standard, so I am not understanding the blatant hate towards this one in particular. Seems her usual hit recipe, unless TPTB have all just decided that Katy's days are over.

I am fine with that too, just saying.

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

@Givenchy I don't want to keep arguing on your points about freedom of expression because we're not going to agree. But I will say that the "let people do whatever they want" attitude is too broad. Some people really don't know what's good for them. They end up regretting it all, having to learn from their mistakes and advise others not to do the same things. I'm taking the word of people who have regrets.

And regarding your feelings about men and feminism, I think you're grossly underestimating the feminist movement. Most of us are just as disgusted by the treatment of men. A feminist book I bought last year actually has a whole chapter devoted to men's struggles. Sexism can affect anyone and what a lot of men who are critical of feminism don't realise is that a lot of things that are sexist towards women are two-fold - they are equally as sexist to men, so they should be on our side. The only reason we bring up how many more women are abused in relationships isn't to make it into a competition, it's to point out how abuse affects men and women differently. Women are far more likely to die at the hands of a man, they are just as likely to be killed by their partner now as they were years ago, domestic violence is a bigger threat to women than disease, cancer and malaria and 1 in 5 women will be beaten in her lifetime. We bring up these statistics not to make it competitive but to point out to people how big of a problem it is and how serious it is. It's simply factual - men are not as much at risk of domestic violence. The majority of abuse men go through is committed by other men, but this is something that no men's rights activist is interested in bringing up. It makes you wonder what they're more offended by - the idea of men being abused by anyone or the idea of men being abused by women in particular?

And it does matter if they're feminists or not. If they aren't, they shouldn't be taken seriously. Feminists actively try to disown any woman who speaks crazy views. It's just society wants feminism to not be discredited and die out, so they spread lies about us pretending to ignore the problem and saying it doesn't exist. We're doing what every other rights group does - we're not joining forces with the crazies and speaking out against them if pressed. We have to state continuously in our writings that what we're doing is not about man-hating. What more can we do? And feminism is about the equality of all. Women make up 50% of the world's population. Half of the world is oppressed (and some of them are the races, sexual orientations, religions and nationalities you brought up) and that needs to change. In order to raise the status of an oppressed group, you have to devote a cause to it. The aim of feminism is to raise women to be on the same level as men, not above. I have never heard such ridiculousness - "put one above the other in a manner of revenge for a history of discrimination." This is not about revenge! We just want equal rights and respect! Do you not want us to be treated equally?

Could I ask, what do you think about movements that aim to raise the status of people of colour? Do you think they're all about revenge for a lifetime of discrimination? Unquestionably, some of them do think this way, but most of them just want equal rights and respect. They want to be raised up to the same level, not above. But of course, it's far more fashionable and acceptable to support a civil rights cause than it is to support feminism. Racism is taken so much more seriously than sexism when it should be handled with exactly the same weight.

17 hours ago, Sister said:

I don't see the controversy with this video at all, it's typical of today's standards and totally Katy Kat, also the song seems her usual standard, so I am not understanding the blatant hate towards this one in particular. Seems her usual hit recipe, unless TPTB have all just decided that Katy's days are over.

I am fine with that too, just saying.

That's the sad thing. It's just "typical by today's standards." How sad we are still in a time when women want to degrade themselves to this level. Men don't, but for women it's normal. And how is this video just typical Katy? She's never been this overtly sexual before, not even close. Even I Kissed A Girl ironically didn't have any girls kissing in it.

[Sister 9,907]

@StrawberryBlond Typical Katy Kat is always sexual, cute, giggling all the way to the bank innuendo. She's so played out good girl teasing "bad"and it is typical and is now landing with a thud. Maybe people have gotten tired of the same thing by her, this video and song is her same routine. I am amazed at anyone being shocked by what she is doing recently in every way that she uses her media personality and am questioning why so many current performers are content with having the entire world as their platform and just want to stay so unimportant and predictable, not only Katy Kat but ALL CURRENT MAINSTREAMERS.

[Fiona Apple 13,006]

On 13/5/2017 at 4:05 PM, ARTnFAME said:

Wrong Miley is becoming Joanne tho 

Joanne wishes

[God Control 2,181]

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

@Givenchy I don't want to keep arguing on your points about freedom of expression because we're not going to agree. But I will say that the "let people do whatever they want" attitude is too broad. 1. Some people really don't know what's good for them. They end up regretting it all, having to learn from their mistakes and advise others not to do the same things. I'm taking the word of people who have regrets.

And regarding your feelings about men and feminism, 2. I think you're grossly underestimating the feminist movement. Most of us are just as disgusted by the treatment of men. A feminist book I bought last year actually has a whole chapter devoted to men's struggles. Sexism can affect anyone and what a lot of men who are critical of feminism don't realise is that a lot of things that are sexist towards women are two-fold - they are equally as sexist to men, so they should be on our side. The only reason we bring up how many more women are abused in relationships isn't to make it into a competition, it's to point out how abuse affects men and women differently. Women are far more likely to die at the hands of a man, they are just as likely to be killed by their partner now as they were years ago, domestic violence is a bigger threat to women than disease, cancer and malaria and 1 in 5 women will be beaten in her lifetime. We bring up these statistics not to make it competitive but to point out to people how big of a problem it is and how serious it is. It's simply factual - 3. men are not as much at risk of domestic violence. The majority of abuse men go through is committed by other men, but this is something that no men's rights activist is interested in bringing up. It makes you wonder what they're more offended by - the idea of men being abused by anyone or the idea of men being abused by women in particular?

4. And it does matter if they're feminists or not. If they aren't, they shouldn't be taken seriously. Feminists actively try to disown any woman who speaks crazy views. It's just society wants feminism to not be discredited and die out, so they spread lies about us pretending to ignore the problem and saying it doesn't exist. We're doing what every other rights group does - we're not joining forces with the crazies and speaking out against them if pressed. We have to state continuously in our writings that what we're doing is not about man-hating. What more can we do? And feminism is about the equality of all. Women make up 50% of the world's population. Half of the world is oppressed (and some of them are the races, sexual orientations, religions and nationalities you brought up) and that needs to change. In order to raise the status of an oppressed group, you have to devote a cause to it. The aim of feminism is to raise women to be on the same level as men, not above. 5. I have never heard such ridiculousness - "put one above the other in a manner of revenge for a history of discrimination." This is not about revenge! We just want equal rights and respect! Do you not want us to be treated equally?

6. Could I ask, what do you think about movements that aim to raise the status of people of colour? Do you think they're all about revenge for a lifetime of discrimination? Unquestionably, some of them do think this way, but most of them just want equal rights and respect. They want to be raised up to the same level, not above. But of course, it's far more fashionable and acceptable to support a civil rights cause than it is to support feminism. Racism is taken so much more seriously than sexism when it should be handled with exactly the same weight.

1. And who is supposed to know better? you? me? she? he? I think people eventually need to try and fail and understand their own mistakes. This is why people are against the idea of putting religion into the government, because no matter how many good intentions there are behind several religious laws, people still want to experience things themselves and decide rather than being banned or guided or forced into something because it's for their own good. You can speak up on a blog or something, that's for sure, but to try and tailor laws or shame people for wanting to appear in a certain way is extreme, because they should always have the free will to choose and the people who regret should live up with it because they chose.

2. I wasn't really speaking about feminism in particular. I was speaking in general about the people who scream and shout at you and shame you for doing what you want, from any group, and they sort of act like it's a cult with an "us vs. them" mentality, where you're either with them or against them. I know many women who prefer to hang around with boys as friends, because they feel better among them, and those girls are being called the worst names and even traitors to their own gender for that. Some people in the LGBT community want to put everyone down just because they don't participate in pride marches or going to gay clubs or looking, liking and acting in a specific way, there are also people in many minorities group who put you down for being different. It's like if you're somehow born into a certain group or chose to fight for a certain cause, then you must somehow conform to their standards, which is horrible because we're different and we're not forced to act in a specific way or appreciate specific things just because the group says so.

3. See, that's exactly my point. It's an attempt to act like something is less serious than another thing. I think I can still fight for something without having to compare it to something else. I can still fight for gay rights without having to say that straight men have an easier life or are less likely to suffer. I can just focus on the problem itself without trying to underestimate another in the name of stating facts. Yeah, there are facts that some girls put up with abusive and cheating husbands because they have money, there are men who do not report abuse because they're ashamed, many actually are, and there are gay men abused by their male partners or lesbians abused by their female partners. And if we're to fight something, we should face it separately without attempting to make it sound like a smaller number. Yes, women suffer, and probably more than men, but when a certain man is suffering and is asking for help, they should get the help they need, not a list of statistics and facts, because it doesn't mean anything in that case.

4. "Shouldn't be taken seriously" how? because if someone offends someone, abuses someone, or attacks someone in a disrespectful manner or attempt to gain a number and make laws and protests according to their own liking, that's not something you ignore. That's something that's happening. And it's not like feminism is a country where if someone goes against the principles of feminism, they kick them out. They're still in the same society as you are and express themselves as wildly as possible and always in your face, so disowning them isn't gonna change anything. They have an agenda and they're working on fulfilling it. Call them feminists, radical feminists, x-women anything, they're still a group that is there and doing damage.

5. Then you really should do some research, because a lot of the radical attitudes that are seen from minorities groups are driven by revenge, rather than just equality and it's like touching any of these groups is some sort of taboo these days while it's totally okay for them to insult or abuse anyone. They call it "reverse racism" and many call it "unreal" when any person of color attacks a white person, and it's much less seriously treated by the media or society, as if every white person today, for example, is a reason for what happened to black people tens of years ago, same goes for hatred within the gay community or from the gay community towards straight people or from women to men..etc. You face some people from all these groups and the act like you're the reason for their suffering even when you had nothing to do with their oppression, in any shape or form. That's what I meant by revenge.

6. Nowhere did I ever imply that ALL the people of these movements are doing this for revenge. But we must not pretend that a huge portion or some of the loudest voices you hear from these movements are those that demand superiority not equality.

Statements like "I'm proud to be a man" are considered offensive while "I'm proud to be a women" is considered bravery, same goes for feeling pride for being black or gay..etc. Now I know that these people do not represent every person of that community, but they're still a part of society that needs to be educated, because just because you're part of a minority group or an oppressed group, doesn't mean that you have endless rights to attack and offend anyone just because they're from a less oppressed group. I call myself a humanist, because I want all of humanity to unite and that maybe decades from now, people will care more about space travel, medicine, education, engineering, ecology..etc. than they are about self discovery and social justice, because I hope that by that  time, social rights will have been guaranteed for all, and humanity will have educated itself enough to outgrow the need to put another group down simply for the fact that it exists.

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

31 minutes ago, Givenchy said:

1. And who is supposed to know better? you? me? she? he? I think people eventually need to try and fail and understand their own mistakes. This is why people are against the idea of putting religion into the government, because no matter how many good intentions there are behind several religious laws, people still want to experience things themselves and decide rather than being banned or guided or forced into something because it's for their own good. You can speak up on a blog or something, that's for sure, but to try and tailor laws or shame people for wanting to appear in a certain way is extreme, because they should always have the free will to choose and the people who regret should live up with it because they chose.

2. I wasn't really speaking about feminism in particular. I was speaking in general about the people who scream and shout at you and shame you for doing what you want, from any group, and they sort of act like it's a cult with an "us vs. them" mentality, where you're either with them or against them. I know many women who prefer to hang around with boys as friends, because they feel better among them, and those girls are being called the worst names and even traitors to their own gender for that. Some people in the LGBT community want to put everyone down just because they don't participate in pride marches or going to gay clubs or looking, liking and acting in a specific way, there are also people in many minorities group who put you down for being different. It's like if you're somehow born into a certain group or chose to fight for a certain cause, then you must somehow conform to their standards, which is horrible because we're different and we're not forced to act in a specific way or appreciate specific things just because the group says so.

3. See, that's exactly my point. It's an attempt to act like something is less serious than another thing. I think I can still fight for something without having to compare it to something else. I can still fight for gay rights without having to say that straight men have an easier life or are less likely to suffer. I can just focus on the problem itself without trying to underestimate another in the name of stating facts. Yeah, there are facts that some girls put up with abusive and cheating husbands because they have money, there are men who do not report abuse because they're ashamed, many actually are, and there are gay men abused by their male partners or lesbians abused by their female partners. And if we're to fight something, we should face it separately without attempting to make it sound like a smaller number. Yes, women suffer, and probably more than men, but when a certain man is suffering and is asking for help, they should get the help they need, not a list of statistics and facts, because it doesn't mean anything in that case.

4. "Shouldn't be taken seriously" how? because if someone offends someone, abuses someone, or attacks someone in a disrespectful manner or attempt to gain a number and make laws and protests according to their own liking, that's not something you ignore. That's something that's happening. And it's not like feminism is a country where if someone goes against the principles of feminism, they kick them out. They're still in the same society as you are and express themselves as wildly as possible and always in your face, so disowning them isn't gonna change anything. They have an agenda and they're working on fulfilling it. Call them feminists, radical feminists, x-women anything, they're still a group that is there and doing damage.

5. Then you really should do some research, because a lot of the radical attitudes that are seen from minorities groups are driven by revenge, rather than just equality and it's like touching any of these groups is some sort of taboo these days while it's totally okay for them to insult or abuse anyone. They call it "reverse racism" and many call it "unreal" when any person of color attacks a white person, and it's much less seriously treated by the media or society, as if every white person today, for example, is a reason for what happened to black people tens of years ago, same goes for hatred within the gay community or from the gay community towards straight people or from women to men..etc. You face some people from all these groups and the act like you're the reason for their suffering even when you had nothing to do with their oppression, in any shape or form. That's what I meant by revenge.

6. Nowhere did I ever imply that ALL the people of these movements are doing this for revenge. But we must not pretend that a huge portion or some of the loudest voices you hear from these movements are those that demand superiority not equality.

Statements like "I'm proud to be a man" are considered offensive while "I'm proud to be a women" is considered bravery, same goes for feeling pride for being black or gay..etc. Now I know that these people do not represent every person of that community, but they're still a part of society that needs to be educated, because just because you're part of a minority group or an oppressed group, doesn't mean that you have endless rights to attack and offend anyone just because they're from a less oppressed group. I call myself a humanist, because I want all of humanity to unite and that maybe decades from now, people will care more about space travel, medicine, education, engineering, ecology..etc. than they are about self discovery and social justice, because I hope that by that  time, social rights will have been guaranteed for all, and humanity will have educated itself enough to outgrow the need to put another group down simply for the fact that it exists.

Enforcing religion isn't the same as enforcing practices to ensure that everyone is treated with respect when it comes to sexual representation and sexual relations. That's a bit different from telling people to behave in a way that is line with teachings of a being who may not exist in all people's minds. I'd rather that people didn't make certain mistakes in the first place. We shouldn't let people be hurt if there's a way we could avoid it.

I'm against the us vs. them mentality from everyone too. I've just told you that this isn't the true goal of feminism. Not everyone in every group tries to shame its members for doing something that goes against their 'rules.' I myself have had to deal recently with being called anti-feminist because I'm just as critical of women as I am of men. I don't believe that just because I'm a feminist means that I should support women blindly or only support them. Someone has to be a good person for me to support them, end of. We aren't bound by unspoken rules in groups. Don't think that all feminists meet up in some sort of clubhouse every week, talking about how they're going to further the cause today. I don't, I don't know of anyone who does. So, if you don't like the way some members of a group work things, just don't hang around them and dance to the beat of your own drum. Different brands of movements exist because not everyone agrees with how things should be run.

It isn't about saying that male abuse isn't as serious. It's a rebuttal to certain difficult men who try to claim that men are getting abused by women at the same rate that women are being abused by men. They also try to claim that both genders experience the same level of abuse. These statements are factually incorrect because women are abused more, they're more likely to be seriously injured and they're more likely to be killed. The threat of domestic abuse hangs over all women's heads and I live in fear that one day, I'll meet a man who seems great at first but then starts hitting me. Men simply do not have this fear when they date. And all these men can talk about is abuse of men and only men, they aren't interested in talking about the abuse of women at all, which really shows where their priorities lie. And like I said before, they refuse to acknowledge that the vast majority of abuse committed against men is by other men. Because how could they bring women down if they bring up this fact? The fact that men are socialised into violence (both to give it and to accept it) is what is largely to blame for the amount of men who are incarcerated, have a lack of education, have addictions and commit suicide. But I don't see men wanting to sit down with their fellow brothers and ask why they're wanting to beat everyone up and what they can do to stop it? Hell, no. It's so much easier to just point the finger at women as if they're causing these problems or something. If a man is abused, of course that's terrible and he should be given help without judgement. But do not act as if this event is just as common among women. It's a bigger problem, stop acting as if it's suddenly all about men.

No, I'm saying someone who claims to be a feminist despite doing things that a lot of feminists disapprove of shouldn't be taken seriously. If everyone in a group is disowning someone, why should outsiders listen to them? No movement is like a country where you can kicked out if you disobey the laws, why are you acting as if feminism is the only group that doesn't work according to this principle? I've already told you that we outwardly disapprove of them and disown them, so what else can we do? We can imprison them or kill them. So, what's your solution for making them disappear? And exactly how are these radical feminists doing damage? Give me examples of any laws that have come into place that negatively affect men since radical feminists have been around. You won't find any because there aren't enough radicals around to make those changes and the most powerful people in goverment (most of them men) certainly aren't going to allow it to happen.

Trust me, I'm totally on your side when I say that same members of oppressed groups are fighting for the wrong kind of change. But I always make a point of saying that those people are few. They just have the loudest voices and making the rest of their group look bad. And I'm also with you when you say that criticising any of these groups for their damaging beliefs is unacceptable - I've come into controversy around here for daring to pick apart any racial theory that exaggerates or lies about certain situations. I'm all for men pointing out the holes of feminist theory because doing so can cause feminists to review what they're saying and make it better. I'm against echo chambers. But that doesn't mean to say that we should ignore any problems that these oppressed groups are discussing. There are genuine issues that women are bringing up that millions of us have gone through that men don't think twice about or even refuse to believe still exist. We shouldn't ignore these things because some women give us a bad name. Ever heard of the phrase "The ones with the loudest voices are usually the ones with the least to say"? Where would society be if we stopped listening to certain causes just because of a few dim-witted loudmouths?

You can be a feminist and a humanist, by the way. Humanism or egalitarianism is the ends, not the means. Most feminists want this in the end. Once every oppressed group is on the same level as dominant groups, then we will live in a humanist society. You can't just say "I'm a humanist" and then do nothing and think the world's going to get better. You have to identify the groups that aren't being treated humanely and work to raise their profile.

[Muscletank 410]

Anyone find it hilarious that bon flopetit has peaked at the dizzy heights of 76???

[God Control 2,181]

15 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Enforcing religion isn't the same as enforcing practices to ensure that everyone is treated with respect when it comes to sexual representation and sexual relations. That's a bit different from telling people to behave in a way that is line with teachings of a being who may not exist in all people's minds. I'd rather that people didn't make certain mistakes in the first place. 1. We shouldn't let people be hurt if there's a way we could avoid it.

I'm against the us vs. them mentality from everyone too. I've just told you that this isn't the true goal of feminism. Not everyone in every group tries to shame its members for doing something that goes against their 'rules.' I myself have had to deal recently with being called anti-feminist because I'm just as critical of women as I am of men. I don't believe that just because I'm a feminist means that I should support women blindly or only support them. 2. Someone has to be a good person for me to support them, end of. We aren't bound by unspoken rules in groups. Don't think that all feminists meet up in some sort of clubhouse every week, talking about how they're going to further the cause today. I don't, I don't know of anyone who does. So, 3. if you don't like the way some members of a group work things, just don't hang around them and dance to the beat of your own drum. Different brands of movements exist because not everyone agrees with how things should be run.

It isn't about saying that male abuse isn't as serious. 4. It's a rebuttal to certain difficult men who try to claim that men are getting abused by women at the same rate that women are being abused by men. They also try to claim that both genders experience the same level of abuse. These statements are factually incorrect because women are abused more, they're more likely to be seriously injured and they're more likely to be killed. The threat of domestic abuse hangs over all women's heads and I live in fear that one day, I'll meet a man who seems great at first but then starts hitting me. Men simply do not have this fear when they date. And all these men can talk about is abuse of men and only men, they aren't interested in talking about the abuse of women at all, which really shows where their priorities lie. And like I said before, they refuse to acknowledge that the vast majority of abuse committed against men is by other men. Because how could they bring women down if they bring up this fact? The fact that men are socialised into violence (both to give it and to accept it) is what is largely to blame for the amount of men who are incarcerated, have a lack of education, have addictions and commit suicide. But I don't see men wanting to sit down with their fellow brothers and ask why they're wanting to beat everyone up and what they can do to stop it? 5. Hell, no. It's so much easier to just point the finger at women as if they're causing these problems or something. If a man is abused, of course that's terrible and he should be given help without judgement. But do not act as if this event is just as common among women. It's a bigger problem, stop acting as if it's suddenly all about men.

No, I'm saying someone who claims to be a feminist despite doing things that a lot of feminists disapprove of shouldn't be taken seriously. If everyone in a group is disowning someone, why should outsiders listen to them? No movement is like a country where you can kicked out if you disobey the laws, why are you acting as if feminism is the only group that doesn't work according to this principle? I've already told you that we outwardly disapprove of them and disown them, so what else can we do? We can imprison them or kill them. So, what's your solution for making them disappear? And exactly how are these radical feminists doing damage? 6. Give me examples of any laws that have come into place that negatively affect men since radical feminists have been around. You won't find any because there aren't enough radicals around to make those changes and the most powerful people in goverment (most of them men) certainly aren't going to allow it to happen.

Trust me, I'm totally on your side when I say that same members of oppressed groups are fighting for the wrong kind of change. But I always make a point of saying that those people are few. They just have the loudest voices and making the rest of their group look bad. And I'm also with you when you say that criticising any of these groups for their damaging beliefs is unacceptable - I've come into controversy around here for daring to pick apart any racial theory that exaggerates or lies about certain situations. I'm all for men pointing out the holes of feminist theory because doing so can cause feminists to review what they're saying and make it better. I'm against echo chambers. But that doesn't mean to say that we should ignore any problems that these oppressed groups are discussing. There are genuine issues that women are bringing up that millions of us have gone through that men don't think twice about or even refuse to believe still exist. We shouldn't ignore these things because some women give us a bad name. Ever heard of the phrase "The ones with the loudest voices are usually the ones with the least to say"? 7. Where would society be if we stopped listening to certain causes just because of a few dim-witted loudmouths?

You can be a feminist and a humanist, by the way. Humanism or egalitarianism is the ends, not the means. Most feminists want this in the end. Once every oppressed group is on the same level as dominant groups, then we will live in a humanist society. 8. You can't just say "I'm a humanist" and then do nothing and think the world's going to get better. You have to identify the groups that aren't being treated humanely and work to raise their profile.

1. I have to disagree, because the person him/herself will tell you that they wanna experience life their own way. That they don't wish to be taught. Like I said, one can call for certain things, preach and teach, but to put someone in a box with certain laws, there will always be someone who tells you "You cannot tell me what to do". It's like school, you study, you pass, you don't study, you don't pass. Each student knows this, but ultimately, it's their choice. Same goes for smoking, drinking and many others things. Once it's made into a law, people will feel oppressed, whether it's for their benefit or not. The mentality that a person is like a child and needs a law that dictates how they live, what they say, where they go and what they wear will eventually evolve into a dictatorship. For example, in Saudi Arabia, women cover themselves because they government thinks this prevents rape, women never drive so that they don't end up having pre-marital sex, which can ultimately be something not in their benefit, men aren't allowed to drink because they think drinking is bad for health and causes irrational behavior, which is why religion banned it. So once you step into the territory of telling people not to do for their own benefit, it can turn into anything. You may not want to go that far, but if you can, someone else will be able to do radical changes, for the same excuse.

2. Same for me. If you're a good person, that's all that matters. You can be male, female, straight, gay, muslim, atheist. I don't care as long as you treat me with respect or just leave me in peace.

3. I don't really hang around them, but when you post a picture of a video game character, you get a rain of comments telling you that you're a sexist pig for making a 3D render of that character, or for making a game featuring a sexy female protagonist, but at the same time, they applaud Madonna, Gaga, Katy and anyone else for their nudity and call it "bravery". That's the hypocrisy that I always speak out against.

4. In that case, don't hang around such men, because they certainly do not represent all men and not every man out there wants to oppress women, deny that women are abused or pretends that only men are suffering. And like I said, regarding the abuse of men, a huge portion of men do not report abuse, due to social stigma, shame and not being taken seriously by the law. So I guess we can never know the true number when people aren't reporting. It could be higher, lower, equal, but we can't tell for sure. And at the end of the day, the suffering of each person is different and it certainly doesn't have to be the same as what the other side is suffering from to be considered valid. For example, in most Middle Eastern countries, the family interferes a lot with the marriage and has a lot of say in it for men and women. So many families will not allow you to marry their daughter if you're not financially capable in their own opinion and with certain guarantees for living, pre and post marital deposits for the wife herself, and so many assurances and luxuries. So to me, that is a form of abuse, when the man is treated like an ATM machine and has to carry all that burden of spending and he actually gets shamed if the wife spends on anything, that is a big problem, she shames him, her family, his and her friends and all of society. That is a form of abuse as well. 

5. Again, you're talking about men with the assumption that they're all straight and all pointing fingers at women. And when it comes to "making problems" yes, many women make problems and drama, and many men do that as well. It's a universal thing and it's ok to blame anyone if you feel they attacked you in some way and the other side has the right to respond and defend themselves or explain their stance.

6. In Arab countries like Jordan, whatever a women says to the police, they will believe her and not the man. If a random woman in the streets claims that you attacked her or in any way offended her, she can report you and you can go to jail for it, without a trail and her family will start making demands, while NOTHING like that every happens if a man reported any women for abuse whether it's verbal or physical. If you were a temporary resident, not a citizen, you could immediately get deported for a simple insult or even a claim, you could even face consequences by the tribes there who think you somehow damaged their honor for a word you said or for nothing at all. Some women in Arab countries would sleep with someone, get pregnant and when he leaves her, she goes to any other man, blames him for it, and because their families treasure stuff like Honor and Reputation, the force you to marry her or kill you, because they don't do a DNA test, fearing that if the results are against the women, then she'd be called a ***** by society. So in that case, not even the law can change anything. 

So you see, when you speak of "women" or "men", it doesn't only have to mean those in the US or Europe, they can be in any part of the world, and it differs from one place to another. Some are enforced by feminist politicians, others by honor and tribal laws..etc. and this is not to blame feminism, but these radicals and these double standards are indeed affecting people, regardless of how many.

7. I personally don't wish to shut down any causes because of the radical minorities within them. I only pointed out parts of society that do exist and should be educated at school, home, in society and should receive a response from their respective group. A radical person of color should be responded to by his/her own group when they're becoming radical, because they're part of the problem, not the solution and so is the silent stance towards them. Same goes for women, gays, muslims, jews..etc.

8. You also can't just say that you're a feminist and stop right there, because feminism isn't just a label you put in your bio. It all requires work. As a humanist, I fight whatever that is wrong, I speak out against it, I donate to causes, I take part in discussions with people who are either the abusers or the abused. That's what I do as a humanist, because to me, all groups matter and what's wrong is always wrong. No exceptions.

 

[SHOOKGA 2,604]

i love this vid!

 

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

@Givenchy I'm just going to keep this brief.

Just because you see some feminists being hypocritical doesn't mean that you have to put down the entire cause. No cause is perfect. You can still support something but have problems with some areas. Call them out and try to change them but there's no need to just throw in the towel completely. Too many people are looking for excuses to leave feminism. And it's very morbid when you think about it that people are trying to find any way to discredit a movement that works to improve the lives of 50% of the world's population. When you bring up other forms of abuse, it's just that - other forms of abuse. We're talking about domestic violence here. And that is an issue disproportionally facing women. Stay on topic. Feminism tries to tackle issues that face women the most above all other groups.

Yes, different laws and different traditions will cause countries to operate differently but I was talking about ways of life in the Western world when I said this. The way things are in middle Eastern countries has nothing to do with feminism, it has everything to do with how sexuality and honour is treated over there. Any kind of sexual practice outside of marriage is frowned upon, so naturally, there's harsh treatment for those who do it. That's the exact opposite to do with feminism, actually. The laws there are decided by men. You can't seriously be saying that feminism has a strong enough foothold in these countries to change anything. I notice that whenever the attention wants to be deflected anywhere else, anti-feminists always bring up the way things are in Arab countries where the situation is completely different to the West. Whether it's to point out how much worse women have it there or to show how bad it is for men over there, it's a weapon that Western men use to discredit Western feminists. It's used to shove in their face to prove that we have nothing to complain about, our lives are great here, we should stop taking things so personally and just lighten up. A lot of men have no idea of the horrors that women are going through in the West. They have no idea what's going on under their smug noses. Most of the sexism Western civilian women endure is the stuff that no one sees, it takes place when it's only victim and perpetrator and the stuff we go through shapes our lives. So, it's easy for men to look around and say "I don't see sexism, what are you going on about?"

And I do put in work as a feminist. Like I am right now. What makes you think feminists just sit around and do nothing?

[TheCureinMalibu 45,913]

LOL what the hell with those long long long comments. It's so painful surfing this page on Mobile. 

OT: Love the vid Katy!!

[God Control 2,181]

57 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

@Givenchy I'm just going to keep this brief.

1. Just because you see some feminists being hypocritical doesn't mean that you have to put down the entire cause. No cause is perfect. You can still support something but have problems with some areas. Call them out and try to change them but there's no need to just throw in the towel completely. Too many people are looking for excuses to leave feminism. And it's very morbid when you think about it that people are trying to find any way to discredit a movement that works to improve the lives of 50% of the world's population. 2. When you bring up other forms of abuse, it's just that - other forms of abuse. We're talking about domestic violence here. And that is an issue disproportionally facing women. Stay on topic. Feminism tries to tackle issues that face women the most above all other groups.

Yes, different laws and different traditions will cause countries to operate differently but 3. I was talking about ways of life in the Western world when I said this. 4. The way things are in middle Eastern countries has nothing to do with feminism, it has everything to do with how sexuality and honour is treated over there. Any kind of sexual practice outside of marriage is frowned upon, so naturally, there's harsh treatment for those who do it. That's the exact opposite to do with feminism, actually. The laws there are decided by men. 5. You can't seriously be saying that feminism has a strong enough foothold in these countries to change anything. 6. I notice that whenever the attention wants to be deflected anywhere else, anti-feminists always bring up the way things are in Arab countries where the situation is completely different to the West. Whether it's to point out how much worse women have it there or to show how bad it is for men over there, it's a weapon that Western men use to discredit Western feminists. It's used to shove in their face to prove that we have nothing to complain about, our lives are great here, we should stop taking things so personally and just lighten up. A lot of men have no idea of the horrors that women are going through in the West. They have no idea what's going on under their smug noses. Most of the sexism Western civilian women endure is the stuff that no one sees, it takes place when it's only victim and perpetrator and the stuff we go through shapes our lives. So, it's easy for 7. men to look around and say "I don't see sexism, what are you going on about?"

8. And I do put in work as a feminist. Like I am right now. What makes you think feminists just sit around and do nothing?

1. I didn't say that nor tried to discredit a movement. If you're part of that movement, good for you. Not everyone needs to and just because somebody isn't, doesn't mean that they're part of the problem or aren't helping the cause just because they're not putting that title to themselves. I can still help the LGBT community without calling myself an "LGBT Rights Activist" nor marching in a pride. Same goes for feminism and any other cause. I can defend the rights of the Black Community without being part of the Black Lives Matter movement.

And not every woman among the 50% of the world is suffering nor needs someone's help. So if you wanna mention numbers, at least try and be accurate because not every woman out there is discriminated against or in need of a feminist to back her up.

2. See? this is exactly my point. Whenever I have any discussion with anyone who claims to be a feminist, they act like they don't really care about anyone else but themselves, which is something that you denied in the previous post. I brought up other causes, because I was talking about how the media affects everything, which was the main reason for this discussion and something that you brought upon about how the media alters our view of things. You somehow tailored it to make it revolve only around women, and you're somehow acting like I'm discrediting an entire movement just because I brought up other people too. Other people do exist, and bringing them up in the discussion in a manner of comparison of movements isn't such a problem. 

You're saying feminism is a movement that tackles issues that affect women above all other groups, and somehow implying that women suffer more than others, and that isn't true, because being a homosexual man in the middle east who was "discovered" is a lot more problematic than being a women there, being a black person in a country where racism exist usually puts you in great danger whether you're male, female, adult or a minor. And the list goes on. Other movements are trying hard to achieve something as well, so the world doesn't really revolve just around feminists or women, so maybe you should stop trying to act like the discussion is all about you and all about women, because it never was from the beginning, it was about your claim that media can affect people's behaviors, and somehow a woman was part of it, but that wasn't the reason, rape doesn't include women only, you know?

3. I wasn't.

4. You obviously never lived in the middle east and you obviously never heard of the feminist movements in Saudi Arabia (the women who identify as feminists) and fighting for their basic rights there, or how the Queen of Jordan does not accept any offense or attack on any women, which is a huge progress, or the women in Iraq and Lebanon who also identify as feminists and are quite active, let alone Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco. I'm guessing you think Arabs live in tents and sand castles as well, and abuse their women and hump their goats and never allow a woman to work or drive in any arab country and also force them to marry rapists. That's far from the truth and if you don't believe me, travel and live there and see for yourself.

5. And yes, I can. You haven't lived there. I have.

6. Do you have any idea what men go through in the west or the middle east? it's not milk and honey all the way, you know? and comparing both situations isn't an invalid way to discuss something. Feminism did achieve something big in the west and are inspiring people in other countries to do that. When someone sees a radical person who identifies as a feminist, it's valid to tell them that they don't need to be that radical because a lot of women in other countries don't even dream to live their lives, and have their rights. It's not always meant to tell you to stop, it's meant to tell the radical ones that they're taking it way too far and having a discussion with someone a radical person isn't such a bad idea after all, because it might help wake them up to reality. If you aren't a radical person, as you described, and someone faced you with such attitude, I'm sorry for you, but that doesn't represent every man on the planet.

7. Not all of them. You're still continuously generalizing "men" and pretending they're all free of problems and are all straight.

8. Good for you. I didn't imply. I only mentioned something that many people do, like many Gaga fans who write "#PromoteOnlineKindness" on their Twitter bios and they're the first to call you the worst names and wish you AIDS and CANCER just because someone doesn't like Lady Gaga. And you assumed that me being a humanist means you're not doing anything, which is false, because I don't need a label to be a true activist, and I certainly don't need anyone's approval to be truly making a difference.

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

@Givenchy No, somebody doesn't need to put a label on themselves to help out a movement but it helps immensly if they do as it helps to de-stigmatise the movement. So many women today are afraid to label themselves feminist for fear that they'll be lumped into the "misandrist, femininazi, fascist lesbian" category. If women can't even define themselves as a campaigner for women's rights, how will we ever get as far as achieving these rights? When you put a name to a cause, it helps define what your aims are, there's a purpose, you can have rules, you can refer to the cause in a shorthand way. And no, not every woman in the world needs 'saving' per se, but every woman will suffer some form of sexism in her life that could endanger her career, endanger her life, deeply offend her, make her terrified. Most of these things are things that men will never suffer like 'pregnancy risk' employment discrimination, getting fired over pregnancy, being sexualised by the media when as a child, being socialised into being expected to be thin while still having voluptuous curves, having disgusting comments shouted at you in the street, having the risk of being followed home by someone who won't take no for an answer, having a 1 in 5 chance of being beaten by a partner and a 1 in 3 chance of being raped/sexually assaulted. All women will experience some of these things in her lifetime. We can't just point to women and say "she needs saving, she doesn't" because women are encouraged to keep things quiet and never speak up, so we don't know who's suffering.

Oh, understand that I care about everyone. Pardon me for just focusing on women when it matters. You are allowed to focus on one group at a time, just like you're choosing to focus on men. It doesn't mean you don't care about anyone else. Of course the media affects men as well but it affects them in very different ways than women. Men aren't socialised into being submissive sex objects or even literal objects like women are. I could turn it all around and say the first thing that happens when I try to talk about feminism with a man is that they immediately bring up every other group and why they have it worse and why women have no right to complain. Every group in the world has it problems and women do not suffer the most, but they do suffer in ways that aren't respected or even acknowledged and we need to bring attention to this problem. I never claimed that the discussion is all about women but women are obviously at the forefront when we talk about media representation. And it was a woman who was implied to be raped in this video, so it became the issue of a woman being raped. If it was a man, I'd bring up the under-researched idea of male rape.

No, I've never lived in the middle east, although I have heard about the women who are active in politics there to increase the rights of women. My country, the UK, actually trails behind countries like Iraq, Sudan, Afghanistan and Tunisia when it comes to numbers of females government, so there you go. However, they have hardly made massive change when stuff like FGM is allowed to go on and there is still heavy restrictions on women. And actually, I have a degree in religious studies, one of which is Islam, so there's my rebuttal to you saying that I don't understand anything about the middle east.

No, telling someone that they're a radical feminist shouldn't involve having to tell them that some women don't even have the rights they have in other countries. When you've told them that, that's only going to make them even more annoyed at you because you're using that whole "Western women have nothing to complain about" idea. I once read this great quote that went: "A man sat me down to explain why feminism has no relevance in 2013...while stroking my leg the whole time." You can tell them that they're being radical without discrediting the sane, worthwhile cause of feminism.

I don't try to generalise all men. I'm talking about the ones who are being difficult, the ones who claim sexism doesn't exist anymore, the ones who attempt to downplay women's issues, the ones who think sexism affects men and women in the same way. I think this should be clear by now. Of course men have their problems and of course they're not all straight (I don't know why you think that's relevant to the discussion). Not all of them even mean anything bad by saying that they don't think sexism is a problem anymore. It's just that they don't see it happen to women, so they think it doesn't exist or they underestimate the damage it can do. Society encourages us not see sexism, so this isn't surprising. But it's never too late to educate yourself and make a change.

Well, the fact you call yourself a humanist is putting a label on yourself, so why is it ok for you to do that but you discourage people from labelling themselves a feminist? If you're pro-female rights, then why should you be against the concept of feminism, an organisation that fights for women's rights?

[God Control 2,181]

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

@Givenchy No, somebody doesn't need to put a label on themselves to help out a movement but it helps immensly if they do as it helps to de-stigmatise the movement. So many women today are afraid to label themselves feminist for fear that they'll be lumped into the "misandrist, femininazi, fascist lesbian" category. If women can't even define themselves as a campaigner for women's rights, how will we ever get as far as achieving these rights? When you put a name to a cause, it helps define what your aims are, there's a purpose, 1. you can have rules, you can refer to the cause in a shorthand way. And no, not every woman in the world needs 'saving' per se, but every woman will suffer some form of sexism in her life that could endanger her career, endanger her life, deeply offend her, make her terrified. 2. Most of these things are things that men will never suffer like 'pregnancy risk' employment discrimination, getting fired over pregnancy, being sexualised by the media when as a child, being socialised into being expected to be thin while still having voluptuous curves, having disgusting comments shouted at you in the street, having the risk of being followed home by someone who won't take no for an answer, having a 1 in 5 chance of being beaten by a partner and a 1 in 3 chance of being raped/sexually assaulted. All women will experience some of these things in her lifetime. We can't just point to women and say "she needs saving, she doesn't" because women are encouraged to keep things quiet and never speak up, so we don't know who's suffering.

Oh, understand that I care about everyone. Pardon me for just focusing on women when it matters. You are allowed to focus on one group at a time, just like you're choosing to focus on men. It doesn't mean you don't care about anyone else. Of course the media affects men as well but it affects them in very different ways than women. Men aren't socialised into being submissive sex objects or even literal objects like women are. I could turn it all around and say the first thing that happens when I try to talk about feminism with a man is that they immediately bring up every other group and why they have it worse and why women have no right to complain. Every group in the world has it problems and women do not suffer the most, but 3. they do suffer in ways that aren't respected or even acknowledged and we need to bring attention to this problem. I never claimed that the discussion is all about women but women are obviously at the forefront when we talk about media representation. And it was a woman who was implied to be raped in this video, so it became the issue of a woman being raped. If it was a man, I'd bring up the under-researched idea of male rape.

4. No, I've never lived in the middle east, although I have heard about the women who are active in politics there to increase the rights of women. My country, the UK, actually trails behind countries like Iraq, Sudan, Afghanistan and Tunisia when it comes to numbers of females government, so there you go. However, they have hardly made massive change when stuff like FGM is allowed to go on and there is still heavy restrictions on women. And actually, I have a degree in religious studies, one of which is Islam, so there's my rebuttal to you saying that I don't understand anything about the middle east.

No, telling someone that they're a radical feminist shouldn't involve having to tell them that some women don't even have the rights they have in other countries. When you've told them that, 5. that's only going to make them even more annoyed at you because you're using that whole "Western women have nothing to complain about" idea. I once read this great quote that went: "A man sat me down to explain why feminism has no relevance in 2013...while stroking my leg the whole time." You can tell them that they're being radical without discrediting the sane, worthwhile cause of feminism.

I don't try to generalise all men. I'm talking about the ones who are being difficult, the ones who claim sexism doesn't exist anymore, the ones who attempt to downplay women's issues, the ones who think sexism affects men and women in the same way. I think this should be clear by now. Of course men have their problems and of course they're not all straight 6. (I don't know why you think that's relevant to the discussion). Not all of them even mean anything bad by saying that they don't think sexism is a problem anymore. It's just that they don't see it happen to women, so they think it doesn't exist or they underestimate the damage it can do. Society encourages us not see sexism, so this isn't surprising. But it's never too late to educate yourself and make a change.

7. Well, the fact you call yourself a humanist is putting a label on yourself, so why is it ok for you to do that but you discourage people from labelling themselves a feminist? If you're pro-female rights, then why should you be against the concept of feminism, an organisation that fights for women's rights?

1. I thought you implied that there aren't any specific rules for feminism in one of your past posts. But ok...

2. Well let's see, men are almost always expected to be the "roof" of the family, especially in terms of financial support around the world, men do suffer from the expectations of look and shape and there are so many guys who are shamed for being too skinny, too fat, too muscled, too petite or feminine (because we're talking about straight and gay men), they're expected to always be the tough, macho, protective of their lovers, and the ones responsibility for everything and always keeping their feelings inside because to the world, a man who is emotional is not man enough, and so many people think crying takes away your masculinity. Gay men are also subject to discrimination in their jobs, in their basic rights in so many countries, their safety, rape, abuse, shaming, not to mention their sexual roles as top or bottom can put them above or below people in the eyes of many, and the list goes on, not to mention how they're encouraged to keep quite about a lot of stuff, so just because a man sits in a cafe or bar with his friends and laughs and seems that he has no problems at all and is actually the master of this world doesn't mean that this is necessarily the case.

In middle eastern countries, men are expected not only to care for their wives and kids, but for their parents, younger brothers..etc. and it is sort of stigmatized if you put your old parents in a nursing home, you have to take care of them yourself, whether you're the son or the daughter, and when you're a man, you're always expected to spend on all these individuals, so yes, when looking at men around the world and in different races, cultures, sexual orientations, yes, men do suffer countless problems that the world refuses to look at or only does so with specific parts in specific countries around the world. Of course, I'm not saying this as a competition against women, it's not a competition of suffering and being miserable, but I guess it's fair to say that men are beyond being straight and dominant.

3. That is true and I've always believed that way and always want to see that problem go away, one way or another.

4. The middle east is not an entirely Muslim population. Lebanon has a Christian majority and these days, there are thousands of atheists and Jewish people who are allover the middle east. The Middle East is often regarded as Saudi Arabia only, which isn't true. In Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon, there's no penalty for being homosexual, for example, and in Jordan, you can never attack any woman or even insult her, because if she reports you, you could get into an endless loop of troubles, and it's not just sex and honor, it's the law that looks at women as the most likely targets for anything and the most truthful sources and that men are always assumed to be on the wrong side. So there you go. So regarding the changes, countries like Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq have evolved a lot because of the active feminist politicians, yes. It may not be something you see in the media every day, but it is there.

And regarding your knowledge about Islam, I can tell you one thing that you'll never know from any degree, which is the extent in which people practice religion. You expect that by reading a book, that any person who believes in it applies it entirely on their lives, and that is far from the truth, because the percentage of people who obey every word in religion is a lot smaller than you can imagine, and just like how millions of Christians get divorced even when divorce isn't part of Christianity, people still do it, same goes for so many things. Countries like Lebanon, Jordan, and Iraq do not apply Sharia Law. Yes, they hold religious values with high regard but they do not apply punishments and rules from religious books. As for ISIS, ISIS is a group that controlled 3 small cities in Iraq and now they've been kicked out from all of them, and in Syria, they did control few cities and are being eliminated, still. The only places where Sharia Law is applied is in these cities and Saudi Arabia, and parts of the Sharia Law in UAE.

Of course, I'm not defending any of the radical teachings, but people in the Middles East don't just open the Qur'an like drilling manual and start judging others step by step like the book. No.

5. Maybe they should feel annoyed. I mean you get what you give. If someone's gonna jump at me and call me a sexist pig for creating a 3D render of a character I love, I'd respond just as disrespectfully because they had it coming. And again, I didn't discredit any causes. I discredit the reasons for their radical overreaction, not the entire cause. And by the way, you mentioned above that so many women fear using that label in fear of being called feminazi, well doesn't that say a lot about how loud these radical people that feminists disown seem to be? I mean if it's gotten to a point where saying I'm a feminist immediately translates to that, then there really is a considerable number of loud people that is painting that image.

6. It's relevant because based on what you wrote, you seemed to implied that the majority of men have a negative stance towards women that is possessive, dismissive and even physically abusive to them, forgetting that there are people who aren't even interestedin females to even be a threat of rape, abuse..etc. and from what I've seen, the majority of the gay community sympathizes a lot with women.

7. I actually made up that label just to show you that I care for all of humanity. And I don't really have power to prevent people from using labels. I just don't like them for myself, in general. I don't call myself straight, gay, bi, feminist..etc. I'm just me and I never implied that feminism should end, at all. I only discussed the radical side of every well-known movement and of course, any person is free to do whatever they want with themselves. I actually don't care. I only react when people are pointing fingers at me like I'm somehow a reason for something bad just because I love a video game character who happened to be a sexy female or male, or that I dress from a certain brand, or that I love a certain music video or singer..etc. I get that sometimes and I respond to people with such claims because they don't know me and they don't get to decide what I make in 3D, what I love, play, like enjoy..etc.

[Fiona Apple 13,006]

On 17/5/2017 at 9:00 AM, Muscletank said:

Anyone find it hilarious that bon flopetit has peaked at the dizzy heights of 76???

it is repeaking this week.