French pension reform censure rejected

[Blackout19 6,913]

1 minute ago, BBhomemaker said:

Yeah sure, let's go back to when women were not allowed to even open a bank account alone or vote or control their own bodies, to when LGBT rights were unexistants and lets not forget WW2, and the Algerian War and...

Well, maybe I would meet Marilyn Monroe, and I am ok 

And I sad that I only want that 

[TortureMeOnReplay 4,127]

9 hours ago, BBhomemaker said:

You can raise all those questions, its fair to ask those, that's why we wants to have more debates, more talks, more opinions, and not just rush with that reform. Also once again, why should we follow every others countries way of doing it, we are different people, different ways. But this government don't allow us to even try or think about it. 

The article that i quoted you had its opinion on it, if you wanna check :

  Reveal hidden contents

Work intensification This increase is explained, as labor economist Christine Ehrel explained to franceinfo, by a phenomenon called “work intensification”. It is about the tendency to want to increase the productivity of the employees to have a better output. This is reflected in particular by the increase in rates. A worker who works on the assembly line, for example, will have to go faster and will also have to do more different tasks, delegate less. However, according to Christine Ehrel, the development of robotics and computer science has made it possible to further intensify the work.

 

Well idk about America i grew up in France, I'm French, we talk about about France. The values that i cited is our national motto, we fought for those labours rights decades ago, we still fight for it, idk about yall but we do. This study is from the Ministry of labours, its not like its some random reddit post 

The what now ? 

"We fought for those labours rights decades ago"

"People are reporting injuries 3 times as often nowadays vs 1984"

Well yeah, if people feel more secure criticizing their company, they're going to. It's not that machines aren't helping health and safety, it's that the people were afraid to get fired for reporting injuries. 

[Tinnitus15 43,197]

Тthe fact my country has one of the worst pension programs and people are working till late 60s. Its pretty common here.

[BBhomemaker 5,439]

20 minutes ago, TortureMeOnReplay said:

"We fought for those labours rights decades ago"

"People are reporting injuries 3 times as often nowadays vs 1984"

Well yeah, if people feel more secure criticizing their company, they're going to. It's not that machines aren't helping health and safety, it's that the people were afraid to get fired for reporting injuries. 

We report it today, and we still are not satisfied with the results, thats why we try to work on it 

[Economy 42,294]

5 hours ago, Guillaume Hamon said:

 

It's a 9 to 15 billion budget hole and we're constantly told by french economic press that way more than that is wasted or stolen each year so folks here believe it would be doable differently.

I think they won't accept a higher age till it's been tried at least.

I wasn't just talking about the financial funding part of it but economic loss as well. And in talking longer term too not just now. We have not hit peak demographic deterioration yet

[Economy 42,294]

6 hours ago, Oriane said:

For those who say there's no solution, actually, taxing 2% of the wealth of the 42 richest people in France would be enough to solve the problem.

But let's protect these people who will be sooooo lost with 2% less of their huge wealth, and let's f*ck over all the people who struggle everyday to make a decent living and will be dead/unhealthy by the time they hit the retirement age.

Are u talking about income tax or wealth tax? And are u talking about the current deficit?

 

I ask cuz I very often have seen these numbers presented in a way where they are actually talking about accumulated asset wealth over decades and the percentage required to pay for something for a single year which in the context of actual purchasing power and income transfers isn't even close to transferable dollar for dollar long term sustainably

 

For example a typical stock will trade for 15X earnings. That means in terms of wealth value a company making a profit of $1 Billion may be valued at $15 Billion on stock market and ppl looking to the rich to pay for stuff may think there's $15 Billion to take but in reality just just wealth on paper. Actual income and money is actually$1 Billion.

 

Actual income and purchasing power is the only thing u can actually transfer. U can't milk the entire asset wealth away because the cash for it doesn't even exist.

 

It's a detail that surprisingly a lot of people completely miss (even some high profile politicians) and don't realize so that's why I ask in what way do u mean 2%

Edited March 17 by Economy

[RudraCNG 12,698]

French people really know how to fight for their rights.

And all of this proves that we don't live in democracies. 90% of the population don't want this reform, yet politicians will pass it anyway.

[Economy 42,294]

18 hours ago, Enomis said:

In Italy the age for retirement is around 70ish. 

I'd switch with ur country right now

But i get your point.

Did they change it recently? I thought Italy was early 60s

[Economy 42,294]

29 minutes ago, RudraCNG said:

French people really know how to fight for their rights.

And all of this proves that we don't live in democracies. 90% of the population don't want this reform, yet politicians will pass it anyway.

I don't totally agree with this assertion. It basically implies a place is only a democracy if every decision has to be supported by the majority as if decisions were referendums 

 

I do think it's a d*ck move (I'm not defending Macron overall) and I'm not saying France raising retirement age is what they have to do but regarding the democracy comment I don't think this in it self makes it not a democracy

 

A democracy gives ppl power to select their leaders but it does not mean every division they make is a referendum. They still make decisions on behalf of the ppl, ppl not agreeing with the decision they make doesn't mean a place isn't a democracy. 

 

In fact I'm not sure that if most things were referendum like that it would necessarily be a good thing. There's gonna be too much bias depending what ur situation is and also not every persons education on matters good enough to make ppl decide. Also there would be too much of a tendency to not deal with issues that have a cost and just let the next generation deal with it

Edited March 17 by Economy

[Eido 3,316]

18 hours ago, Dennis said:

Retirement age at 64 is very reasonable compared to other countries. France has a huge fiscal problem and an ageing population. Something has to be done. Either taxes are raised on younger people or push the retirement age a few years. Unless someone has a better solution, please tell me. France already taxes the **** out of the wealthy. What else can Macron do?

That's gotta be a joke right?

[BBhomemaker 5,439]

2 hours ago, Economy said:

I don't totally agree with this assertion. It basically implies a place is only a democracy if every decision has to be supported by the majority as if decisions were referendums 

I do think it's a d*ck move (I'm not defending Macron overall) and I'm not saying France raising retirement age is what they have to do but regarding the democracy comment I don't think this in it self makes it not a democracy

A democracy gives ppl power to select their leaders but it does not mean every division they make is a referendum. They still make decisions on behalf of the ppl, ppl not agreeing with the decision they make doesn't mean a place isn't a democracy. 

In fact I'm not sure that if most things were referendum like that it would necessarily be a good thing. There's gonna be too much bias depending what ur situation is and also not every persons education on matters good enough to make ppl decide. Also there would be too much of a tendency to not deal with issues that have a cost and just let the next generation deal with it

What is the point of having a senate and an assembly if he aint gonna pass by their votes anyway? Aka the people that represent us, what about the deputies that have been elected and are not part of Macron's party ?

We should just let him say **** it to our system each time he knows he aint gonna have a majority of vote ? 
This article (49.3) can be legal, doesn't mean its moral or legitimate

Also, forcing repetitively whatever he wants despite french people being against it, is not a democracy. 
"Government of the people for the people by the people" ... we are not speaking about a minority of people disagreeing here, we speak about more than 90% !!! Its not just oppositions parties, its the whole country.

It's OUR country, not MacronLand !

I love how you totally ditch the referendum for a "democratic" country but don't see any issue with a president and his prime minister choosing for more than 67Millions people, without their approbations. 
You guys might let it slide, swallow it or follow blindly in your countries but here in France we don't, we won't, and that's why we fight. 
I'm sure some Americans here were not so happy with every decisions that Trump took.. but we are unreasonable ? 
 

Shutting people's voice, our représentants, our syndicats is not what i call a democracy. 

Edited March 17 by BBhomemaker

[Economy 42,294]

7 minutes ago, BBhomemaker said:

What is the point of having a senate and an assembly if he aint gonna pass by their votes anyway? Aka the people that represent us, what about the deputies that have been elected and are not part of Macron's party ?

We should just let him say **** it to our system each time he knows he aint gonna have a majority of vote ? 
This article (49.3) can be legal, doesn't mean its moral or legitimate

Also, forcing repetitively whatever he wants despite french people being against it, is not a democracy. 
"Government of the people for the people by the people" ... we are not speaking about a minority of people disagreeing here, we speak about more than 90% !!! Its not just oppositions parties, its the whole country.

It's OUR country, not MacronLand !

I love how you totally ditch the referendum for a "democratic" country but don't see any issue with a president and his prime minister choosing blindly for more than 67Millions people, without their approbations. 
You guys might let it slide in your countries but here in France we don't, we won't, and that's why we fight. 
I'm sure some Americans here were not so happy with every decisions that Trump took.. but we are unreasonable ? 

U are putting so many words in my mouth as if I said Macrons actions were positive or if I see "no issue with it". Ur accusing me of defending something I totally didn't

 

What I said was that a country not ruling by what the majority of what the ppl want is not by definition not democratic. Countries were never obligated to pass laws based on what the majority of the population want or to make a referendum for each policy. That was never what a democracy was

 

A democracy means u elect ur leaders and ur free to to kick them out in the next election if u don't like them. Constitutionally that's what a democracy has always been

 

Him being agressive with his power to pass laws as long as it's thru legal means just makes him a d*ck. It doesn't make France undemocratic

Edited March 17 by Economy

[Guillaume Hamon 4,950]

4 hours ago, Economy said:

I wasn't just talking about the financial funding part of it but economic loss as well. And in talking longer term too not just now. We have not hit peak demographic deterioration yet

I mean people not working longer can be an economic loss but if the social cost is too heavy for 8 french person out of 10... I wish Macron would respect that.

Also it's true the demographic gonna go worst but unemployment could do better along the years as well. It's maybe not the best to take decisions for 2030 or something that are sacrifices cause so much can evolve till then...

 

Edited March 17 by Guillaume Hamon

[Guillaume Hamon 4,950]

1 hour ago, Economy said:

What I said was that a country not ruling by what the majority of what the ppl want is not by definition not democratic. Countries were never obligated to pass laws based on what the majority of the population want or to make a referendum for each policy. That was never what a democracy was

Not for each policy obviously but for the main ones everyone care for like that it would really be more democratic to use referendums imo.

Democracies were supposed to have local representants elected to make laws and here they decided again yet there's a forcing from the government...

[Economy 42,294]

53 minutes ago, Guillaume Hamon said:

Not for each policy obviously but for the main ones everyone care for like that it would really be more democratic to use referendums imo.

Democracies were supposed to have local representants elected to make laws and here they decided again yet there's a forcing from the government...

If u mean ideally how it should be, that's a fair opinion (tho I have my reservations about it personally cuz I feel important decisions that aren't pleasant to make ppl would ignore the issue even more if left to themselves to decide so I guess personally I kinda support the idea that big decisions don't have to be a referendum)

 

But my comment was more from a technical basis of what a democracy is technically. If u are talking about ur idealistic version of what a democracy should be that's a different angle and a fair point