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Official Israel/Palestine Conflict Discussion Thread


SamanthaC

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Monstruous
10 minutes ago, MonsterofFame said:

I'm not the most informed on this

Yes we can tell

10 minutes ago, MonsterofFame said:

They are acting in self-defense

The basic element of self-defence is that it must be proportionate: it is not self-defence but aggression

10 minutes ago, MonsterofFame said:

the land was given to Israel by all means of what is considered "fair" by modern society.

Absolutely not, this is a violation of the right of Palestinians to self-determination and this is plain colonisation. The UK shouldn’t have ownership of the land in the first place and they were not entitled to decide who should live in it

10 minutes ago, MonsterofFame said:

Palestine's attacks remind me of a child who won't listen and continues to hit people despite being scolded and told not to.

This is called resistance to oppression, just like there was resistance in South Africa during apartheid

10 minutes ago, MonsterofFame said:

it may not be fair but life is not fair

This is the most irrelevant and stupid take you could possibly write congrats 


 

In conclusion, keep reading buddy

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Two pages into this thread and it's already full of misinformation and fake "solutions" that don't even tackle the real problem aka the fact that this is a case of settler colonialism and the only sol

Free Palestine. 

What has happened to Palestine can only be described as settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing. 

Pennywise
10 minutes ago, MonsterofFame said:

Yes, it may not be fair but life is not fair. War is how humans have traditionally taken something back, so Palestine's attacks make sense BUT don't expect me to feel sorry for them or support their actions

We... shouldn't expect you to care about... children being murdered? 

Imagine telling on yourself like this :air:

YOUR GOD IS NOT HERE MICHAEL NOR WILL HE EVER BE
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alsemanche
15 minutes ago, MonsterofFame said:

I'm not the most informed on this, but after reading this thread and from what I know about it, here's my take:

Israel usually is not the first aggressor. Their policy is of the "if you hit us first, we will hit you back twice as hard" mentality. They are acting in self-defense.

While I do empathize with Palestine for having something once theirs taken away, the land was given to Israel by all means of what is considered "fair" by modern society. It was under British ownership, who gave it to the United Nations. The UN then gave the land to the Jews to form Israel.

Because of this, Palestine's attacks remind me of a child who won't listen and continues to hit people despite being scolded and told not to. 

Yes, it may not be fair but life is not fair. War is how humans have traditionally taken something back, so Palestine's attacks make sense BUT don't expect me to feel sorry for them or support their actions. They're continuing to cause the problem, they will have the deal with the consequences. The civilian lives lost is their own government's fault (or those attacking Israel on their behalf).

Wait wait so you understood that the land was forcibly taken and given to Zionists with 0 consent from the indigenous people but you still think it's Palestine's fault? I'm very confused how that works. Someone comes to you house, tells you it's theirs because someone else who is stronger than you told them it is, tells you to leave, then commits crime against you and somehow it's your fault? Israel started the aggression with the establishment of their colonial state (which was given to them with the help of another colonial empire and its friends in the UN). "Life's not fair" is not a thing to be said when genocide is happening... 

And if you wanna talk about what is happening right now, Israel is still the one who started the aggression by forcibly dispossessing people of their homes and giving them to settlers then postponing Palestinian appeals in court (which happens when they want to try and diffuse the tension so they can more easily take over the properties). 

ALSO the only ones acting in self-defense are the Palestinians. You can't claim self-defense when you're 1) the colonizer 2) have one of the strongest armies in the world 3) are killing civilians in their homes including children who are sleeping. Aggressors don't do self-defense, they do attacks.  

Edited by alsemanche
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Wet Fire
13 minutes ago, MonsterofFame said:

 

While I do empathize with Palestine for having something once theirs taken away, the land was given to Israel by all means of what is considered "fair" by modern society. It was under British ownership, who gave it to the United Nations. The UN then gave the land to the Jews to form Israel.

 

But UN also said that Israel forcing Palestinians out of their homes is anti-humanitarian :ohwell:

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lodylody
13 minutes ago, MonsterofFame said:

I'm not the most informed on this, but after reading this thread and from what I know about it, here's my take:

Israel usually is not the first aggressor. Their policy is of the "if you hit us first, we will hit you back twice as hard" mentality. They are acting in self-defense.

While I do empathize with Palestine for having something once theirs taken away, the land was given to Israel by all means of what is considered "fair" by modern society. It was under British ownership, who gave it to the United Nations. The UN then gave the land to the Jews to form Israel.

Because of this, Palestine's attacks remind me of a child who won't listen and continues to hit people despite being scolded and told not to. 

Yes, it may not be fair but life is not fair. War is how humans have traditionally taken something back, so Palestine's attacks make sense BUT don't expect me to feel sorry for them or support their actions. They're continuing to cause the problem, they will have the deal with the consequences. The civilian lives lost is their own government's fault (or those attacking Israel on their behalf).

Life isn't fair, you're right!

Let's let LGBT+ individuals be thrown off buildings in the Middle East!

Let's let millions of families in the UK rely on food banks for survival.

Let's let a novel virus savage the planet and kill the weak and the old.

Let's let people's property and lives be stolen from them.

Let's let innocent civilians be killed by bombs for things they played no part in.

I mean, why not? Life's not fair :ohwell:

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lodylody
2 minutes ago, Wet Fire said:

But UN also said that Israel forcing Palestinians out of their homes is anti-humanitarian :ohwell:

And we don't really even need to UN to know that forcing someone out of their home is obviously just completely wrong :rip: 

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Jose P
20 minutes ago, MonsterofFame said:

 

While I do empathize with Palestine for having something once theirs taken away, the land was given to Israel by all means of what is considered "fair" by modern society. It was under British ownership, who gave it to the United Nations. The UN then gave the land to the Jews to form Israel.

 

What exactly gave the British “fair” ownership of that piece of land? And what exactly gave them the right to give it to Israel? Explain it to me please. Because what we’re describing is literally colonialism. How can you sit there and say “oh I feel sorry for them but life’s not fair and Israel has every right to force these people from their homes and take away their land, it is how it is”. Are you even reading what you wrote?

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brizoda
57 minutes ago, Not The Real Gaga said:

 

This summary is for people who want to educate themselves but don't know where to start. It is a very complex issue, so I likely missed some points. Please, let me know in the comments if I need to add or clearify something.


- In the late 19th century, Jews faced a lot anti-semitism and violence in Europe

- Theodor Herzl, a journalist and political activist from Austria, believed this hate could only be avoided by the establishment of a Jewish state

- He especially promoted the idea of Jewish mass immigration to Palestina, being the birthplace of Judaism and being the described in the Bible as the Promised Land, an idea that attracted a lot of supporters over the years

- During the First World War, the British promised the Jews that they would help to establish such Jewish state in Palestina in order to get their support during the war

- After the war, the British were awarded a mandate to govern the region and fulfilled their promise to the Jews

- With the support of the British, Jewish colonists started to buy the lands of the people in Palestina

- This led to resistance from the Palestinians

- When Adolf Hitler became Germany's leader in 1933, many Jews moved to Palestina for obvious reasons

- This led to even more conflicts between them and the Palestinians, with one of the worst periods being 1936-1939

- Being unable to solve the situation, the British wanted to transfer their mandate to rule Palestina to the United Nations

- In 1947, the United Nations proposed a "solution" by dividing the land between the Jews and Palestinians (based on the amount of people from each side that lived in certain regions)

- The United Nations gave a bigger share of the land to the Jews (while there actually were way more Palestinians living in the country at that time), taking further immigration into account

- The Jews accepted this proposal, the Palestinians did not (of course)

- When the British officially withdrew their forces in 1948, the Jews declared their independence and established the state of Israel

- The Arab countries that surround Palestina refused to accept this and mobilised their armies the following day in order to rescue the Palestinians


- This marked the start of the Arab-Israeli War, which lasted till 1967

- Between 1948 and the 70's, Arab nations started to expell their Jews, which resulted in more immigration to Israel


- The Palestinians suffered great loses on their side and many of them fled to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank of Jordan

- With many Palestinians having fled the state, Israel was able to claim even more land than was originally granted by the UN plans

- But then the Israelis started to invade the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and claimed those regions as well

- This led to a new war, which Israel won

- After this war, the Israelis started to establish new Jewish settlements in the territories they had annexed from the Palestinians

- Some Israelis even wanted to formally claim the West Bank since the region is described in the Bible as well

- This led to more violence from the Palestinian side towards the Israelis and more support for the Palestinian nationalist movement

- The Palestinians now wanted their own state as well, but Israel refused to negotiate with them and declared them terrorists

- In 1993, it seemed like the attitude of Israel slowly started to change

- In that year, both parties signed the Oslo Accords which led to the withdrawal of the Israeli military forces in some parts of the West Bank 

- Both parties agreed that the Palestinians would regain control over those regions, and in return, the Israelis wanted the Palestinians to stop attacking Israeli targets and civilians 

- However, it soon became clear that the Accords had failed, since the Palestinians did not regain control and the Jewish settlements became bigger and bigger (so, in reality, the conflict never actually ended)


- One of the most complicated factors of the ongoing conflict is the city of Jerusalum, given it's relevance to different religions


- Apparently, most Palestinians are willing to accept the establishment of a Palestinian state in the Gaze Strip and West Bank, but those regions are still controled by Israel

- Efforts to divide the land between the two parties all have failed so far

 

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- Currently, Israel is officially recognized as a country and Palestina is not by many Western nations. These countries are reluctant to declare Palestina an official nation because they fear further escalation of the conflict

You forgot one thing that is of very importance ;

The Nakba

Wikipedia :

The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, romanized: an-Nakbah, lit. '"disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm"'), also known as the Palestinian Catastrophe, was the destruction of Palestinian lives, society and homeland by the jews in 1948, and the permanent displacement of a majority of the Palestinian people. The term is also used to describe the ongoing persecution, displacement, and occupation of the Palestinians, both in the occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as well as in Palestinian refugee camps throughout the region

Edited by brizoda
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ARTPOP
47 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Thank you so much! I wanted to educate myself about this but having absolutely no knowledge about the situation I had no clue where to start or what even to look for. This made it very clear thank you

 

43 minutes ago, Shipper said:

 I try to refrain commenting on these threads cause I don't know anything about the history behind the conflict. I always heard more positive things in the media about Israel and negative things about Palestine and to hear that being reversed I knew I had to educate myself to understand what is truly going on before throwing my opinion out there.

This is very helpful! :diane::heart: 

So here is a lecture by Noam Chomsky on the whole issue

It might be long and boring but it is quite informative.

He is a jewish american professor as long as I know.

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COME ON GAYS!!
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alsemanche

Btw I'm not sure if I have mentioned this here before, but the head of the Palestinian Authority (Abbas) isn't much better than the US :neyde: the Palestinian government is practically a Zionist puppet that does what Israel sees fit, not much more. 

Translation:  Breaking: White House: Biden and Abbas have expressed their shared desire for Jerusalem to be a region of peaceful co-existence 

 What an idiotic thing to say when the Palestinian people are fighting for freedom and decolonization 

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alsemanche

Live discussion about the attacks on Palestine that includes Jeremy Corbyn (who has been very vocal in his support of Palestine):

 I won't be able to watch sadly but I hope it's useful for those who want to  

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Wet Fire
27 minutes ago, lodylody said:

And we don't really even need to UN to know that forcing someone out of their home is obviously just completely wrong :rip: 

Moreover, we don't even need to know which side is right or wrong to know that using firearms to kill innocent people is clearly wrong :air:

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Not The Real Gaga
45 minutes ago, Jose P said:

What exactly gave the British “fair” ownership of that piece of land? And what exactly gave them the right to give it to Israel? Explain it to me please. Because what we’re describing is literally colonialism. How can you sit there and say “oh I feel sorry for them but life’s not fair and Israel has every right to force these people from their homes and take away their land, it is how it is”. Are you even reading what you wrote?

- After the First World War, a group of nations established the League of Nations (later replaced by the United Nations after the Second World War) with the goal to end all wars

- Following the defeat and dissolution of the Ottoman Empire during the First World War, the victorious European nations decided to divide the region into newly created states (the so-called League of Nations mandates)

- The mandate to govern Palestina was given to the British

- The formal objective of those mandates was to administer parts of the defunct Ottoman Empire

- Most of these states gained achieved independence during the following three decades

- In the case of Palestina, however, this did not happen, because (1) the rise of nationalist movements in both the Jewish and Arab communities, and (2) the events as described in my previous summary

Edited by Not The Real Gaga
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ARTPOP
5 minutes ago, Not The Real Gaga said:

The formal objective of those mandates was to administer parts of the defunct Ottoman Empire

Surrrreee 

The British and French colonists wanted to make sure the Middle Easterns are doing well and not to draw un realistic borders to start division and feed their colonialist strategies :ally:

Edited by Aphroditus
COME ON GAYS!!
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