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Official Israel/Palestine Conflict Discussion Thread


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ItWasntLaauv

This is a great response. I know that this won’t be a good enough response for a chunk of people, but those people can’t see nuance and empathy if it sat on their face.

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Two pages into this thread and it's already full of misinformation and fake "solutions" that don't even tackle the real problem aka the fact that this is a case of settler colonialism and the only sol

Free Palestine. 

What has happened to Palestine can only be described as settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing. 

dit
Just now, Zeth said:

It‚Äôs not staying neutral ‚ÄĒ it‚Äôs condemning the loss of innocent life and urging world leaders to seek peaceful resolutions.¬†

Yup that's great and all but that language is too puffy and sweet and has led to NO serious change. How many decades of condemnation of innocent lives on both sides etc... have gone by with only circumstances worsening? Words like those mean nothing and they are regularly used to mask the depth of this issue. This issue is ethnic cleansing. It is GENOCIDE. Plain and simple. Yet we use puffy fluffy language like this to mask the vitrial of this situation and to undermine the Palestinians suffering. It disgusts me. 

Again, I'm not talking abut Rihanna's words. She said this because she's already spoken time and time again in a much more direct manner indicating the real issues at hand so using this neutral language here is fine. I'm just talking in general...in a broader sense. 

p.s: i'm not coming at u. Just letting people know that this way of thinking is actually evil because it legitimizes the cruelty by equating both sides when all stats indicate that this is not the case. One side is being wiped out and is literally fighting for their right to exist. One side is pretending to do the same when all it is doing is expanding and pummeling over the other to do so. We must be more frank so this brutality ends AND THEN we can have kumbaya conversations centered around communal peace and what not. For now the conversations must be around halting ethnic cleansing and that requires more direct language. Not puff pieces. 

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gumzy3000
24 minutes ago, Zeth said:

IMHO, this is the ideal response the world should have on¬†this matter. Condemn the violence and support a resolution. Posting which ‚Äúside‚ÄĚ you align with on social media is just deplorable.

What's there to be neutral about? Israel is the oppressor and Palestine is oppressed. Taking a neutral stance on this issue is the easy way out.

Would you say you are neutral regarding Hitler, for example? Of course not. He was a dictator who killed millions of people and it should be in everyones moral code to never forget those atrocities his regime created. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians is terrorism and being neutral in this is useless and nothing more than beating around the bush. 

A messy blend of logic and sass
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SevenWonder
25 minutes ago, Cersei Lannister said:

I’m kind of confused about the whole thing tbh. There are some gheys on my Facebook posting that they support Israel and other gheys saying they support Palestine and they’re fighting over it. I have a basic concept of the what the conflict is about but why is this such a political issue can someone help me understand 

It's a very confusing saga that is quite literally millennia in the making. I'll give you my unbiased take, as I see it (I  have no dog in this fight, but have studied the region), in a summarized, dumbed down version:

Essentially both Palestinians and Israeli's want the same land. And have fought over it forever and a day. Because of religious and ethnic differences, the two factions hate each other. (Well, it's mostly religious differences). And they seem to enjoy hating each other. Not really, but it sorta feels like that. Like the worst sort of co-dependent relationship ever. One that's lasted thousands of years.

To make matters worse, neighboring countries hate Israel with the same fervor that the Palestinians do (but also have no high regard for Palestinians - except that they're aren't as bad as Israel). This makes Israel SUPER sensitive to any perceived threat. They feel like they have no choice but to be on the defensive at all times. Again, they're hated on all sides (once again: thanks religion!). But if Israel was gone? Palestinians would still be screwed. Again, no one in the region cares too much for Palestine either. So it's sort of a rabid dog next to a feral cat, if you get that. 

The West sides with Israel for LOTS of complicated reasons. On one level, shared Western, enlightened values (supposedly). On other levels, for economic and political strategies (oil, keeping tabs on Iran, etc.). Still on other levels, both the West and Israel think they're superior and "bond" over that. Which is, of course, a huge problem. It's led to Israel being a bully at best and a downright genocidal at worst. 

As for us gheys? Israel is VERY pro gay. Palestinians tend to be very NOT pro gay. So that can be confusing for us. It's hard to root for a people that, in theory, want you dead or erased. But, of course, it's more complicated than that. Still, that might be what you're seeing on your FB feed regarding gheys siding with Israel.

But, to bring it back full circle: It comes down to land. Israel doesn't want to give up any to a Palestinian state - which currently doesn't exist. So Palestinians are forced to live in a tiny strip of land called Gaza. To make matters worse, Gaza is run by terrorists. So it's super easy for Israel to do unjust things in Gaza and blame "terrorists". Which is sorta true. And Palestinians can blame big, bad, Israel to justify their bad behavior. Which is also sorta true. 

Basically, it's been a mess of a problem for about 2,000 years and, sadly, I don't think it will ever right itself. Nothing ever works. Nothing. No one is innocent. Not even close. They just fight and fight and fight and blame and blame and blame. It's downright depressing. 

Hope that helps!

 

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Melech
2 minutes ago, SevenWonder said:

Basically, it's been a mess of a problem for about 2,000 years and, sadly, I don't think it will ever right itself. Nothing ever works. Nothing. No one is innocent. Not even close. They just fight and fight and fight and blame and blame and blame. It's downright depressing. 
 

best thing would be two states and both countries share an union. Jews need to give up a Jewish majority state and Palestinians need to get rid of the idea that Jews should leave the region .

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SevenWonder
Just now, Melech said:

best thing would be two states and both countries share an union. Jews need to give up a Jewish majority state and Palestinians need to get rid of the idea that Jews should leave the region .

Could not agree more! 

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Luna Lovegood

God I feel it‚Äôs better for Gaga to keep quiet for this matter as unfortunate as it sounds cause I know her kindness punk ass will go neutral ūüė≠

luna’s advocate
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Cersei Lannister
39 minutes ago, SevenWonder said:

It's a very confusing saga that is quite literally millennia in the making. I'll give you my unbiased take, as I see it (I  have no dog in this fight, but have studied the region), in a summarized, dumbed down version:

Essentially both Palestinians and Israeli's want the same land. And have fought over it forever and a day. Because of religious and ethnic differences, the two factions hate each other. (Well, it's mostly religious differences). And they seem to enjoy hating each other. Not really, but it sorta feels like that. Like the worst sort of co-dependent relationship ever. One that's lasted thousands of years.

To make matters worse, neighboring countries hate Israel with the same fervor that the Palestinians do (but also have no high regard for Palestinians - except that they're aren't as bad as Israel). This makes Israel SUPER sensitive to any perceived threat. They feel like they have no choice but to be on the defensive at all times. Again, they're hated on all sides (once again: thanks religion!). But if Israel was gone? Palestinians would still be screwed. Again, no one in the region cares too much for Palestine either. So it's sort of a rabid dog next to a feral cat, if you get that. 

The West sides with Israel for LOTS of complicated reasons. On one level, shared Western, enlightened values (supposedly). On other levels, for economic and political strategies (oil, keeping tabs on Iran, etc.). Still on other levels, both the West and Israel think they're superior and "bond" over that. Which is, of course, a huge problem. It's led to Israel being a bully at best and a downright genocidal at worst. 

As for us gheys? Israel is VERY pro gay. Palestinians tend to be very NOT pro gay. So that can be confusing for us. It's hard to root for a people that, in theory, want you dead or erased. But, of course, it's more complicated than that. Still, that might be what you're seeing on your FB feed regarding gheys siding with Israel.

But, to bring it back full circle: It comes down to land. Israel doesn't want to give up any to a Palestinian state - which currently doesn't exist. So Palestinians are forced to live in a tiny strip of land called Gaza. To make matters worse, Gaza is run by terrorists. So it's super easy for Israel to do unjust things in Gaza and blame "terrorists". Which is sorta true. And Palestinians can blame big, bad, Israel to justify their bad behavior. Which is also sorta true. 

Basically, it's been a mess of a problem for about 2,000 years and, sadly, I don't think it will ever right itself. Nothing ever works. Nothing. No one is innocent. Not even close. They just fight and fight and fight and blame and blame and blame. It's downright depressing. 

Hope that helps!

 

Thank you for your response! It sounds like a very complex and sad situation. It is a conflicting thing when showing support for one side or another. Why is it that Republicans in the USA tend to openly support Israel so much and the left seems to support Palestine especially if they’re anti-gay? That seems contradictory 

More wine ūüć∑
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SevenWonder
3 minutes ago, Cersei Lannister said:

Thank you for your response! It sounds like a very complex and sad situation. It is a conflicting thing when showing support for one side or another. Why is it that Republicans in the USA tend to openly support Israel so much and the left seems to support Palestine especially if they’re anti-gay? That seems contradictory 

1. Republican supports Israel because of fundamental religiosity (fundie Christianity aligns much more with Judaism than it does Islam), money (Israeli is essentially a US puppet country economically. It makes some wealthy Americans very, very rich. Most of those are on the right - though not all.), Islamic terrorism (Palestine is in bed with some bad groups for sure) and because the current Prime Minister of Israel, Netanyahu, is very, very, scarily conservative. He's their Trump, but he's smart. 

2. I think the left supports Palestine more because it seems wildly unfair that they don't have their own homeland. They've been around just as long as Jews in the regions. And it feels like an easy thing for Israel to do: Give up some of your land to Palestine JUST LIKE what happened in 1947 when the Israeli state was formed. Land was taken then! So, then not to do it AND treat residents of Gaza like dogs? It's cruel, tbh. But of course, it's more complicated than that. It's not like Palestinians just LOVE the Israeli's!

Of course, one could also ask, say, Syria to give up some land for a Palestinian state. Or Iraq. Or Egypt. But that ain't happening. Ever. No one really wants to deal with the Palestinians in the region. So, it's almost a left wing thing to care for the underdogs - even if Palestinians are no angels.

And Israel does come across like bullies. That said, if the roles were reversed? If Palestine had a nation and the Jews were wanting an Israeli state? Lol. That would never, ever happen. 

Again, just a mess. 

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SummerBoy223

I'm pro-israel, but she should support who ever she wants. Being neutral is the best option nowadays. 

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GucciGa
1 hour ago, dit said:

 

Her even speaking about it is great. She's always been vocal about this conflict compared to other popstars who say and do nothing or keep their thoughts private which is fine I guess but just lame. 

No, it's not lame. Its not a pop star's job to speak out about world affairs. Not everyone keeps up on every conflict going on. They might not feel informed enough. Or they might just not want to get involved.  And that's OK. Stop looking to celebrities to get involved in politics. That's how we ended up with fcking Trump. If Rihanna feels she's informed enough and feels seriously enough to comment then that's absolutely her right, but don't call others lame for not getting involved. Look to your politicians and world leaders. 

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ARTPOP
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cersei Lannister said:

Why is it that Republicans in the USA tend to openly support Israel so much and the left seems to support Palestine especially if they’re anti-gay? That seems contradictory 

Simply, - Money - similar fascistic and racist ideology. 
It is not only Republicans but also establishment democrats. Read into the role of AIPAC and the effect it has on American policies. For example, Jared Kuschner’s involvement in the illegal settlements in Westbank.

Another important thing to keep in Mind, The whole situation is rooted in politics, power and ethnicity. 
Religion and social issues are what Israeli propaganda is trying to reflect to the outside world. As I said read outside the Forum. 
 

For example, pinkwashing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT)

 

1 hour ago, SevenWonder said:

then not to do it AND treat residents of Gaza like dogs? It's cruel, tbh. But of course, it's more complicated than that. It's not like Palestinians just LOVE the Israeli's!

 

So after being treated like dogs, whats more complicated? Why do you always end your sentences with that, when the specific situation is explained? 
Oh please, I don’t think it is easy to like a regime that is treating them like 3rd or 4th class citizens with almost zero empathy. You are so Tone deaf, you sound like the people that support Blue lives matter. 
 

1 hour ago, SevenWonder said:

course, one could also ask, say, Syria to give up some land for a Palestinian state. Or Iraq. Or Egypt. But that ain't happening. Ever. No one really wants to deal with the Palestinians in the region. So, it's almost a left wing thing to care for the underdogs - even if Palestinians are no angels.

Do you come from any of these countries? Dont say BS then. There are many Palestinians and most of them from Refugee decent in these countries. 

You can‚Äôt pretend to be neutral when you stuff like ‚Äúnobody wants to deal with them‚ÄĚ , when in fact all of these countries are dealing with them . They don‚Äôt and won‚Äôt give them a land because they have a home that the Israeli regime is expelling them from

 

1 hour ago, SevenWonder said:

And Israel does come across like bullies. That said, if the roles were reversed?

THEY ARE PRACTICING APARTHIED BEHAVIOR AND DOING WAR CRIMES. This is not highschool! People are dying everyday, stop being tone deaf.

Again your Whataboutism after everything Israel does, makes it clear you are far being neutral 
 

 

Edited by Aphroditus
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swooning

What has happened to Palestine can only be described as settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing. 

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SevenWonder
2 minutes ago, Aphroditus said:

THEY ARE PRACTICING APARTHIED BEHAVIOR AND DOING WAR CRIME. This is not highs cool! People are dying everyday, stop being tone deaf.

Again your Whataboutism after everything Israel does, makes it clear you are far being neutral

Dude. I clearly said I was going to offer the OP a general breakdown of what's going on. I can easily get more detailed, but I don't think this is the forum for that. 

For the record, I am NOT pro Israel. I am doing my best to be unbiased. It's a complicated situation. To argue otherwise would be incongruous to reality and do a disservice to the OP. 

Be angry all you want, but kindly leave me out of your anger. I ain't your enemy, friend. 

Throwing out words like whataboutism (though you got this wrong. I don't believe I committed this fallacy at all) and tone deaf (again, not sure I was tone deaf) is super edgy and cool. But instead of wasting energy denigrating me, why don't you add to the conversation with actual intelligent discourse? I think the OP is looking for that! And I'm always willing to learn new information, especially in regards to such an important issue. 

 

 

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ARTPOP
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, SevenWonder said:

Be angry all you want, but kindly leave me out of your anger. I ain't your enemy, friend. 

First, I am not angry towards you or anyone. I just capitalized words to highlight what I wrote. Second, I am not your enemy nor friend. 

 

16 minutes ago, SevenWonder said:

Throwing out words like whataboutism (though you got this wrong. I don't believe I committed this fallacy at all) and tone deaf (again, not sure I was tone deaf) is super edgy and cool. But instead of wasting energy denigrating me, why don't you add to the conversation with actual intelligent discourse? I think the OP is looking for that! And I'm always willing to learn new information, especially in regards to such an important issue. 

You always end your statements with‚Ä̬†what about the other way around?‚ÄĚ This is the definition of whataboutism. You are tone deaf to oppression when you belittle people being treated like dogs(somehow justify it)¬†¬†by saying ‚Äúthey don‚Äôt ¬†love Israel :(¬†‚Äú

I already added something to the conversation but you nitpicked the parts that you felt offended by.

If you are willing to learn, you would have also replied to the other parts of my comment ? See, I don't think so...

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