ASIB Songwriters Discuss Demos, Process, Gaga & more at LA FilmSchool Event

[ChicaSkas 21,062]

I had the great pleasure thanks to @Admin to attend the Songwriter's Hall of Fame 2019 Oscar Nominee's Discussion last week in Los Angeles, to report on it for GagaDaily. It was held at the Los Angeles Film School, a prestigious school celebrating 20 years of education this year. Historically, the LA Film School sits on the old RCA Records property, and houses it's old offices and archives.

This was an very informative educational talk intended primarily for the students of the school, but the knowledge shared could expand anyone's mind. They dished on such topics as songwriter's processes, how to succeed in the music industry, common sense truths, and of course, nerdy questions about unreleased demos and session techniques. Expect nothing less!  

Photo credit: Vern Evans for LaFilmSchool.edu 

Paul Williams, Anthony Rossomando, Diane Warren, Marc Shaiman and Scott Wittman

The songwriters above share so many connections. Paul Williams wrote songs for "A Star Is Born" (1976 with Streisand/Kristofferson) Diane Warren wrote songs with Gaga such as "Till It Happens To You" (for The Hunting Ground) and "Why Did You Do That?" (for ASIB 2018), and Marc Shaiman and Scott Wittman both wrote the music of Mary Poppins Returns, for Lin Manuel Miranda and Emily Blunt.

This was a rare opportunity to discover the inner workings of how the Oscar nominated songs from the 2018 films we loved got written, and an inside look into the songwriting process from a variety of true professionals in the music business. I've transcribed most of it below so that you all could experience what it was like to be there. Luckily, one of my questions for Gagadaily was picked as part of the pool of questions, so you can see the results of that too! 

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Chris Willman of Variety Magazine moderated the panel, and introduced Anthony Rossomando to the audience:

"Anthony Rossamando, you know what he's here for tonight, he's co-nominated with Mark Ronson, Andrew Wyatt, and Lady Gaga. There are four writers on 'Shallow'. He started out in a series of rock bands, the Damn Personals, The Libertines, Klaxons, and Dirty Pretty Things.  And since Dirty Pretty Things broke up in 2008, he's been more behind the scenes, and working a lot with Mark Ronson as he did on this song. He's won a recent Golden Globe for the song. And if you watched the Grammys a few days ago you saw him in Lady Gaga's band, where she was rocking that song, a bit more than in the movie. And I'm sure he helped with that!"

He went on to introduce Diane Warren, who's musical history is monumental in her own right:

"We have Diane Warren! This is her tenth Oscar nomination... and if I've done my math right, she's had nominations in three of the last four years. I won't go through all ten, but the last couple of years she's had 'Stand Up For Something', which had a Common rap on it, and a song by Audra Day; 'Till it Happens To You', her collaboration with Lady Gaga -- different Lady Gaga collaborations on stage tonight!  And the ones that are still ubiquitous everywhere, 'How Do I Live', from the movie Con-Air, that had two hit versions -- Tricia Yearwood and LeeAnn Rimes -- and 'I Don't Want To Miss A Thing' , from Armageddon. We won't go into her non-movie songs, because that would be another 20 minutes! 

 

 

 

After introducing the rest of the panel, Chris Willman asked a relevant question to Paul Williams, who wrote music for the Barbra Striesand / Kris Kristofferson version in 1976:

Paul, when you went in to watch this A Star is Born, were you thinking, 'This better live up to my A Star Is Born', or 'It can't possibly live up to my A Star is Born.' ? 

Paul Williams: I wrote seven of the songs for the [1976] Star is Born. And by the first 30 seconds of the new one, I was already lost in the story. The one that we wrote, you look back, it's very romantic, "With one more look at you, I could learn to tame the clouds and lift the sun...'  Very romantic. I'm proud of the work. And 'Evergreen' got me something I'd been trying to get for a long time. But the fact is, when I watch what Bradley Cooper created, and what all of you created (motions to the other songwriters on stage) I responded.

First of all, I lost my brother two years ago, a songwriter. 
He wrote "Drift Away",  "Give me the beat boys, and free my soul..." I'm sitting there watching Sam Elliot, and his relationship with [his brother]. The moment in the film where Sam Elliot looks back after he's been told, "It wasn't Dad, it was you." There's a moment where all that love pours into him, he turns around, he's got the wheel, he looks back behind him, direct tight left to the camera, and he's just losing it. And you feel all that emotion. You don't see something like that and think about the one you did in 1976.... you know? You don't think about that. 

Watching that woman cover her eyes, and I know what she was feeling. She was looking at that audience the first time , she's saying "I'm not gonna be separated from my art", I mean, she's committed. "I'm not gonna get stuck out in Shallow, I'm gonna stay here." It's amazing. 
And they are all amazing. I'm really proud of our "Star is Born". Everybody says, 'what was it like writing, was it scary writing songs for Barbara Streisand?'. Yeah. But I also had to write songs for the guy that wrote Sunday Morning Coming Down and that was no easy thing. [Kris Kristofferson] Oh my god. "Puttin' on my cleanest dirty shirt..." Give me a break..... 

*Audience claps* 

Chris Willman, Moderator: Anthony, if I may ask you, if you could just take us back to the writers room....

Anthony Rossomando: I'm lost in thinking about Kristofferson and what he does next after he finds the dirty shirt!
*laughs*  "Pours himself a same drink from the last night".... I can't remember the next line of that song. It's so good. I'm sorry! Paul's captured my imagination!

Moderator: There were four of you in the room, and I think you were all on guitars, and this was in 2016, that I read, and there was a quote of Lady Gaga's that I thought was interesting that I was going to ask you about, she said: "When I wrote that song with Mark, Anthony, Andrew -- it was different than any other experience I've had writing a song. There was a grave nature to the movie." So it sounds like you were in a serious mood. Does that ring a bell with you? 

AR: Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty poignant way to put it. I'd say that was the feeling. I guess I always felt most comfortable when you can be vulnerable. It's very important for process. It makes you feel like you're writing on your own, even though you're with a few people, it's pretty special. Maybe [Gaga] is pointing to that in a way. That's definitely how that felt to me. 

Moderator: It sounds like the song sounded very different at the time before it got rearranged. 

AR: Yeah, Mark had a little bit more of a groove production to it. I reckon the epic power ballad of it, though, just couldn't be contained in the long run. But there wasn't a lot of production. It was basically piano, a couple of guitars, bass. We sat in a circle, playing melody ping-pong. In a very vulnerable space. Or a space that I felt, and I think all of us felt, very trusting in just because we have a lot of experiences together, you know?  I don't want to talk too much, I'm so honored just to even be on the stage with all these people! This is really fun for me. I think that relationship, the relationships we all built over the years, boiled down into that space.

Gaga and I were hanging out quite a bit at the time, she was on the Joanne tour, and I was helping her out with some guitar. I tried to get her to play a smaller necked guitar and she like, refused. *mimics a Gaga snapping quickly*  "I want the big one!!". Like alright.... ! She's the leader in the room. It's really all about her, this thing.

Moderator: The New York Times had a great description of the song:  [Shallow] does triple duty as love song, vocal showcase, and plot pivot. But the way I understand it, it wasn't written as a plot pivot, at least the way she described it, she had it in mind as an end theme, because he was going to commit suicide by drowning. And that was why there was a water theme - 

AR: Therefore the metaphor sat there. Yeah, pretty much. And it sings great. I think for a second Mark was saying that "The Shallows" used to be a little bit more 60's doo-wop when we first did it, and it always kind of rubbed a little weird. It was one of those things. I really think that that process was.... I don't like to over-intellectualize that process, it's just whatever feels good when you are playing ping-pong in the room with everybody, but to listen back, those were a bit 60's girl group. Or 50's girl group, actually. And we pulled, she pulled a lot of the 'La las' and 'Ha has' out and gave it much more resonance and stuff. There's little nips and tucks after the original initial thing, I guess. 

Moderator: She said that, first there was that great moment, that was made the centerpiece of the trailer, where she kind of goes into that wordless aria. She said that originally, she was like doing that in kind of a quieter falsetto or something.

AR: Yeah, it was super mellow. It was. And the coolest thing about how all of that worked out, is that I was out on the porch . We kind of broke because we didn't know what the bridge was going to be. I was just smoking outside the studio, just strumming around, as you do, and Mark was all, "Hey man, maybe that's the bridge."

I was like, "This ends on a major and then we are gonna switch back to A minor with the chorus, it's pretty wierd."

But we tried it the first time, and we were all like, "YES...!!!" It worked. We came back on a weird angle to get back into that last chorus. That was the moment we [knew] we have a full song.

Moderator:  This is the one song in the script that has, well, it's the song with the most writers, four of you in it.

AR: Is it? On the soundtrack? 

Moderator: Uh, yeah -- not on the soundtrack, of this panel!

AR: Okay!

Moderator: I think a lot of people... 

AR: Until Diane lets me write songs with her. 

 *audience laughter*

Moderator: ... and outsiders wonder if ....

AR: I'm working on her! Everywhere I see her... *starts singing softly to Diane*

*Diane, and panel, and audience laugh*

Moderator: ... is this the case: where you're all just throwing out ideas, and it's hard to kind of trace where they went, or .....?

AR: Um, I don't know. I think you are literally in a circle like this. Everyone's ear is pretty quick. You bang it pretty quick. You kinda know where it's gonna go. I've written a ton of songs with Andrew. I've done a ton of stuff with Mark. They are two of my best friends. And I've spent a lot of time with Stefani. We really come from a very similar place. We are all Tri-State area kids. We could have been in a band!  I can't believe you said Libertines and Dirty Pretty Things. It's so funny to me, they are such small entities compared to what everyone on this stage has done. But it's fun to hear the word "Klaxons". 

I think maybe the band feeling of it is what lent to this really organic process of the song. It's easy to write by ourselves. I think you mention the twist thing, and that is it was written from a His and Her perspective. We had the two verses, but it wasn't "he and she" originally. And I think his weaving of that into the script is what really, you know, it's that last twist it needed. 

There are so many people on a song like this. I think [Bradley Cooper's] vision should be recognized just as much as the writers on this because that's how it translates. It's churned into the listener. It's really, really been fun to watch that process of it. Starting in a very small circle [of songwriters] on this film. Small cog in a big big beautiful machine, really. Pretty cool....Yeah, it's been fun!

*Audience claps*

Moderator: Diane, you work almost 100 percent individually, so you aren't a huge fan of --

Diane Warren: Yeah, I don't argue with my co-writer!

*Audience laughs hard*

DW: Well I beat the **** out of myself. I guess I'm in an abusive relationship with my life. *laughs and smiles* Does that make sense to anybody? I'm in this building, too. I've been here since '85. Isnt' that crazy? 

Diane Warren, wearing a sweater with her song "I'll Fight" from the Ruth Bader Ginsburg film, "RBG"; embroidered on the front.
Diane had an office in the former RCA Records building, which later turned into the LA Film School where this talk was being held. She still has that office today.

Moderator: You love Hollywood?

DW: I do. I love Old Hollywood. I liked it when it was really sleazy before, too! *laughs* 

Moderator: People must coax you into wanting to co-write. 

DW: I co-wrote one song in A Star Is Born! The ass song! Not exactly the Oscar song in that movie.But it was fun! 

Moderator: Recently, you've had all these nominations kind of racked up in a row, and they've all been for songs that are either inspirational or socially concious. I don't want to say that "Till It Happens To You" is inspirational, but it is a socially concious song. Is that just as much fun for you, or more, than heartbreak songs, or...?

DW: The whole idea is to write a great song. But if you can write a song that can inspire people, or change things... I mean, "Till It Happens To You", that was kind of, right before the #MeToo movement. I think that helped people. It helped me talk about stuff that I'd gone through like that. I never spoke about the fact that I was molested. That song kind of got me talking, got other people talking. Music is such a powerful force. So whether it's that or "I'll Fight" for RBG or "Stand Up For Something" -- I'm super proud -- probably more proud of those songs than some of the gigantic hits. 

Moderator: The song you had last year, I saw it being picked up in so many places. Whether it was at the Women's Rally....

DW: It became the Stand Up To Cancer theme song, too. 

Moderator: As did the ACLU, everyone who had a cause. This fits. 

DW: I am so proud of that. 

Moderator: How many of you saw that film [The Hunting Ground]?
*applause*

Paul Williams: If you haven't seen that documentary you have to see it. Everybody has to see it. And the song that Diane wrote is an anthem. And it's stunning and it's important. If you haven't seen it, you need to add that to your brain cells. 'Cause it's really powerful. 

DW: Thank you so much. And you know, here's a really cool thing when you were talking about that: I met a woman that works in the Justice Department, and she says she blasts "I'll Fight" when she's working for victims. So I thought, "****, that's the coolest thing ever. The fact that that can inspire people to help other people.  

Moderator: One thing  all 3 of these songs have in common, which I just realized, which is kind of interesting is that they were all written with a specific voice in mind. Obviously, when you've got Lady Gaga in the room, that's a given. Emily Blunt was already cast, and you guys were ready for her, and you've said that you were writing for Jennifer Hudson's voice specifically.

 
DW: I just thought she'd be the perfect vocal avatar for Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who speaks so softly. Yet you see her work out, she has a lot of power to her. And what she says is certainly powerful, and resonates. You know, she loves opera, so she love divas. But it wasn't really an operatic song. But I thought that Jennifer could just be her vocal diva avatar. 

Moderator: We have cards with a few questions from the audience. Some of these are not surprisingly, very songwriting in the trenches oriented. One of these is: To get anywhere with a song, do you have to have a master recording?

*huge pause onstage by all of the panel*

Moderator: *repeats question* To get anywhere with a song, do you have to have a master recording?

AR: *incredulously* You mean like a demo? 

Moderator: I guess that's what that means.

AR: Yes!

*laughter in audience and onstage*

AR: Duh...

Marc Shaiman: Unless you are REALLY good at explaining things...
I've never explained a song... That's one hideous thing about film scoring, my agent is here and he can attest to this, because I never get those jobs, where I have to go to meetings for. Because I'm always like, "Uh.... I'll write..... Notes and chords... that fit your story and the movie you'll make...?!" What am I supposed to say? I never get those jobs.  *laughs*

*audience laughs*

Moderator: Here's another songwriter's question, someone who wants to be in the industry, "Who do you pitch to when you are starting out, and who discovers a songwriter?"

MS: I think like every other thing in life, but certainly in show business, you just gotta keep doing it and doing it. There's no answer to that question. You never know who it is that's going to hear something. 

AR: Every gig counts. 

MS: We have so many stories, for ourselves and for other people that we've seen, like, there was a girl who did Hairspray in a summer stock. And it happened to be the summer stock that Scott grew up working at. And so we said, "You know what? Let's drive up to Vermont and see Hairspray." They asked [us to come] because Scott had worked there. But we could have easily that afternoon said, "Oh, let's not drive up to Vermont....." But we did. And the girl who was playing Tracy Turnblad, the lead, she probably thought, "Oh, I'm just doing this in summer stock, and well, you know....." Well, we went, and we thought, "She's really good, isn't she? " And half a year later we had her playing it on Broadway. She already was playing the lead in the show, so that was great. But it was an example of: "Yeah, even though you're in a little theater in Vermont, just do it! Say yes, and go and do it. Because who knew that the songwriters of the show were going to turn up and see you." Right out of a movie! "Damn, she's good!" There are millions of stories like that. 

AR: Just show up. 
MS: Say yes.
DW: Show up!
*applause*

Moderator: Question for Anthony from Katharine of GagaDaily...

AR: It never ceases to amaze me how many versions of Gaga.dot.something there are, but they are infinite...!

*laughter on the stage, in the audience*

Moderator: You sort of addressed this a little bit, but, "Gaga's classic syllabic inflections are present in Shallow as in many of her hits,  was that all her or did it just occur naturally in the sessions?"

AR: Inflections? Meaning her Gaga-ness? *sings beautifully in a syllabic way* "No-oh-oh-oh....!"

*audience cracks up,  as does panel*

Moderator: Maybe they mean -- 

AR: Meaning the middle A being where the Gaga-ness comes out, or...?

Moderator: Yeah, I think --

Katharine Styles-Burroughs: I could explain in greater detail!

AR: Yeah, tell us the question, Katharine!

KSB: Hi, Anthony, I'm Katharine Styles-Burroughs, Gagadaily.com!

AR: There she is! 

KSB: Hi! Very nice to meet you, sir. And Diane Warren! Paul Williams, I saw you in Simi Valley, thank you for coming to my hometown."

(Full disclosure, while I'm talking to them, I am wearing the new GagaDaily teeshirt that reads, "GIVE GAGA THE OSCAR" on the front).

DW: *in a strong tone* Were you wearing that shirt 3 years ago?

*audience laughs hard*

DW: "No, just kidding!" she quickly pivots, and smiles.

KSB:  I should have been!
My main question was, we know from so many of Gaga's past hits, "Poker Face", "Puh-puh-poker face', "Bad Romance", "Rah Rah - ah ah ah". She syllabizes, if there is a such a word, within her songs. It becomes like a tic. It's one of her signature things she does in songs. 

AR: Yes. *nods head*

KSB: And in Shallow, "Shall - la- la- low", you hear the same syllabic thing. I know that's super nerdy fan-ness right there.

AR: No, that's cool. I love nerdy fan-ness! It's so great. It's fun, isn't it? It's a unique dialing, really honing in down the wormhole.

AR: I'm trying to go with you there. I don't think that those are in-obvious tropes, in pop music, to have something repetitive. However, hers are completely hers. And yeah, the post hook on that is like an extension.... I remember Mark, he was joking like, "Shalom?" 

*audience and panel laugh*

"We couldn't do,'Oh Shalom!' It shouldn't be that." Like, okay.... I think also Andrew and her and I were trying to wedge a lyric in about 'Moaning Lisa'. And Mark was like, "What the ****, are you guys doing? You are so intense in here that we just have to go funny for a second." Yeah, her signature is in that host, for sure. And then you get the big middle A where she decided to belt it instead. And I didn't realize she was gonna belt it on the recording. So, when I first saw it on the trailer, on my phone, I was like, oh ****, this is gonna work.

KSB: That must've been awesome.

AR:  It's her. It's all her, in that song. You can hear her spirit in there. We are, like, serving her. Or feeding her the stuff. I don't want to overtalk it. But it was more 50's girl group in the beginning, and it did not NEARLY work as well as it does now. 

KSB: Does a demo of the 50's Doo Wop version exist?  

AR: Yeah. We were in her bowling alley one night, she's putting it on, she's like:  

*Anthony adopts a tough stance, staring at the audience as if he's Gaga in that moment*

"Second version!" [she declares.]
I was like, "Ah......" 
She was like: "You liked the second one better!"
I was like, "How did you know?"
She was like: "I can already tell. I know. "
I was like, "Yeah, I know, cuz' your a genius. Okay great." 

*audience and panel crack up*

I was like, "Less la-la-la's!!"
And she was like, "LESS LA-LA-LA's!"
I was like, "Great, okay, cool. It's done."

*audience dies laughing*

But those fine tuning things... she's gonna make that hers in the end. And she did. I think that's why it really resonates with her fans. People who know, "rah-rah, rah-rah-rah."

AR: Which gives you the same feeling, you know what I mean?? It's like she channels that ****. I don't know. Diane knows anyway; she's like a juggernaught. It's pretty special!

KSB: Thank you so much for your time, all of you.

Moderator: I don't know if you saw Saturday Night Live this weekend, but one of the actresses on the show did a pretty interesting Lady Gaga impression.

AR: Oh, in the news segment? I haven't seen it.... I don't watch anything... people just tell me!

Moderator: You know, it's funny, I don't even think about her inflections until you see someone do a parody, and you go, "Alright, somebody's studying that. Picked that out."

AR: Signature move!

Moderator: I just have to ask you quickly, how was it being on the Grammy's a couple of days ago?

AR: It was really, really fun. It was a lot of fun. It was like me and my homies. Gettin' to experience that with my very close friends is extraordinary. It was very, very special. It was really, really something. 

Moderator: Diane, you must feel in a tough spot because you want to win, obviously, but you're friends with Lady Gaga?
DW: Well, yeah. *laughs* I'm kinda used to not winning! Susan Lucci is my spirit animal. 
AR: You're my spirit animal, Diane...!
*audience goes awwwww....*
 

Moderator: We are about out of time, anyone add anything before we sign off here?

 

Paul Williams speaks inspirationally to the audience

Paul Williams: I really wanted to answer the question of how you do this [as students]. Here's my theory, this is the most important thing I think I have to say: Your talent was not put in your chest for you to suffer. None of us up here could tell you how we got here. I mean, we know the path that we all took, but we probably planned about a fifth of it. I was an out of work actor, who started writing songs because I couldn't afford to go to the movies. It's been a full circle. It's been amazing. And we've never needed your music, and your movies more than we do right now. I don't think your being here is an accident. I don't think you have to fight your way all the way through it, I think that we can help. And we can, if we identify. That concludes my spiritual talk!

*huge applause*

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So that was a synopsis of the most interesting Gaga-related, ASIB-related, and songwriting and philosophy related segments of the evening! It was a blast to hear all of these people discuss the songs and experiences that affected them as they go through their careers. I was fortunate enough to catch up with both Anthony Rossomando and Diane Warren and chat some more with them. There could be some GagaDaily exclusive interviews coming up in the works.Stay tuned, everyone!

this entire article is (c) Katharine Styles-Burroughs for GagaDaily.com

Photo credits to LAFS, professional photographer Vern Evans, and myself.

 

 

 

 

[DC 25,164]

I was scrolling down super fast and thought that this was Kris Jenner 

Spoiler

 

[LetsGetHigh 52,683]

Wait, did you wear the 'Give Gaga The Oscar' tee?

[Luckystef8 363]

omg literally all legends so jealous!

[FfFfFfFF 54,014]

Wow. That's so interesting. Shallow's demo was different than we imagined it seems.

[VTV 10,755]

Totally worth reading. I saw the pics on your IG and was wondering if we'll get some coverage and we did 

 

Thank you Chica 

 

Now all of us are gonna thirst for that demo 

 

 

[Arturo 40,746]

Loved reading all of this. Super insightful. I hope we can hear the demo some day.

[LaLa 18,543]

Amazing, awesome job! Anthony sounds like such a cool guy. And I always love to hear a bit about how Gaga is with her friends and collaborators. 

Also, what I wouldn’t give to get to hang out in her basement bowling alley listening to demos 

[Clumsy Monster 1,518]

That "Give Gaga The Oscar" shirt

[ChicaSkas 21,062]

1 minute ago, Clumsy Monster said:

That "Give Gaga The Oscar" shirt

https://everpress.com/give-gaga-the-oscar

I know. We should have made it back when TIHTY was huge.

First thing Diane says when I meet her out front, was "Where was your shirt 3 years ago? Could have used it then!"
I was of course fangirling over her CBS This Morning Special from years ago where you walk into her office and she has WALLS upon WALLS of cassette tapes .... she was really nice to me. She gave me her publicist's information so we can do a GGD interview with her soon.

 

[ReidOne 12,427]

41 minutes ago, ChicaSkas said:

 

 

 

 

 

OMG!!!!!! This is awesome!

[ferretti 5,808]

Amazing job! Really interesting and really fun. It sounds like you had a blast and so glad you got to ask a question and have so much feedback. 🙌🏻🙌🏽🙌🏿 

[ChicaSkas 21,062]

12 minutes ago, ferretti said:

Amazing job! Really interesting and really fun. It sounds like you had a blast and so glad you got to ask a question and have so much feedback. 🙌🏻🙌🏽🙌🏿 

I could tell as the moderator was asking it, that the panel wasn’t getting it. So I just raised my hand and piped up , I can explain!

God, it was a really nerdy question though, lol! The best questions are nerdy ones, though, right? 🤓 

[Didymus 32,702]

"Were you wearing that shirt 3 years ago?"

Fantastic post, thank you so much for sharing it, I'm happy you were there to represent us and could cut in when they weren't getting the inflection thing. It's a great question and I've wanted to know the answer for a long time too so thanks

[Panchecco 17,139]

Anthony Rossomando is so awkward and cute I love him