Gaga’s believe women speech going viral

[Smother Em Eh 6,824]

7 hours ago, Colorful Bird said:

Wow you're ridiculous. You're basically saying no proof is needed for anything when in fact it's all that's needed.

Exactly! Yes thank you! She wanted to attack me on it. 

[Dilwyn 4,090]

the clownery on this thread 

 

[iCpro 14,846]

2 hours ago, Smother Em Eh said:

Uh yes yes I am serious. How tho? And I never ever said I supported Trump. Yeah but honestly anyone can come out and say they were sexually assaulted. I know that does sound quite insensitive of me to say, but it’s true. One thing I actually really find off about this whole thing is that she seems off. She can barely remember what happened 1 month ago, nonetheless 36 years ago. Don’t most victims of rape remember every darn detail of who, what, & where it happend to them? I wasn’t really on anyone’s side on this whole thing, Dr Fords or Kavanaughs I was in the middle and still am. So don’t even try to throw the “You support Trump” card like so many people on this site do. 

Not sure if you watched the same hearing as I did but she gave a pretty detailed recounting of the event...

[Whispering 18,865]

5 hours ago, Smother Em Eh said:

Don’t most victims of rape remember every darn detail of who, what, & where it happend to them? 

Science says otherwise.

During a traumatic event like assault, chemicals like norepinephrine and cortisol cause the brain to focus on what it considers to be the most important and central details of the event.

But smaller details surrounding the trauma — often referred to as “peripheral details” by scientists — may not be stored by the hippocampus, which turns short-term memories into long-term memories, explains Jim Hopper, a teaching associate at Harvard Medical School who studies the impact of sexual assault on the brain.

“When stress or fear or trauma kicks in, the brain shifts into a mode when the hippocampus goes into a super-encoding mode, in which those central details really get burned in and the peripheral details are lost,” Hopper says.

“Memory is not like a tape recorder,” Zoladz says. “There are certain things during the event that her (Dr. Ford's) brain probably honed in on and appraised as important — a couple of boys, being pushed down, having a hand put over her mouth, the loud music … Her memories are very consistent with what you’d expect someone to remember about a trauma.”

 

[Smother Em Eh 6,824]

4 minutes ago, Whispering said:

Science says otherwise.

During a traumatic event like assault, chemicals like norepinephrine and cortisol cause the brain to focus on what it considers to be the most important and central details of the event.

But smaller details surrounding the trauma — often referred to as “peripheral details” by scientists — may not be stored by the hippocampus, which turns short-term memories into long-term memories, explains Jim Hopper, a teaching associate at Harvard Medical School who studies the impact of sexual assault on the brain.

“When stress or fear or trauma kicks in, the brain shifts into a mode when the hippocampus goes into a super-encoding mode, in which those central details really get burned in and the peripheral details are lost,” Hopper says.

“Memory is not like a tape recorder,” Zoladz says. “There are certain things during the event that her (Dr. Ford's) brain probably honed in on and appraised as important — a couple of boys, being pushed down, having a hand put over her mouth, the loud music … Her memories are very consistent with what you’d expect someone to remember about a trauma.”

 

Wow. Well that was educating. Thank You for responding so respectfully and not in a nasty & condescending manner! 

[Deagan 608]

On 10/7/2018 at 7:32 AM, Whispering said:

Science says otherwise.

During a traumatic event like assault, chemicals like norepinephrine and cortisol cause the brain to focus on what it considers to be the most important and central details of the event.

But smaller details surrounding the trauma — often referred to as “peripheral details” by scientists — may not be stored by the hippocampus, which turns short-term memories into long-term memories, explains Jim Hopper, a teaching associate at Harvard Medical School who studies the impact of sexual assault on the brain.

“When stress or fear or trauma kicks in, the brain shifts into a mode when the hippocampus goes into a super-encoding mode, in which those central details really get burned in and the peripheral details are lost,” Hopper says.

“Memory is not like a tape recorder,” Zoladz says. “There are certain things during the event that her (Dr. Ford's) brain probably honed in on and appraised as important — a couple of boys, being pushed down, having a hand put over her mouth, the loud music … Her memories are very consistent with what you’d expect someone to remember about a trauma.”

 

I have one problem with this "believe women" idea.

So the brain works like that. Has anyone ever been able to read memories from the brain, though? To check if they actually occured? I don't think so.

You can't just say we should always believe women and criminally charge a man based on a claim.

This is where the legal applicability of psychology and neurscience doesn't fly yet.

 

She wants to be a hero for sexual assault survivors? Tell women about their rights. After something happens, go get checked and collect DNA evidence right away. Your boss pays you a lower wage than your male (equal) colleague? Sue him for dicrimination on gender. Somebody pinches your ass at work? Ask anybody who saw it to draw up a statement and file for sexual intimidation.... you claim someone raped you years ago? Get some evidence or, instead of dragging someone to court and losing your case, get professional help to try to accept and love yourself again.

[Whispering 18,865]

4 hours ago, Deagan said:

I have one problem with this "believe women" idea.

So the brain works like that. Has anyone ever been able to read memories from the brain, though? To check if they actually occured? I don't think so.

You can't just say we should always believe women and criminally charge a man based on a claim.

This is where the legal applicability of psychology and neurscience doesn't fly yet.

 

She wants to be a hero for sexual assault survivors? Tell women about their rights. After something happens, go get checked and collect DNA evidence right away. Your boss pays you a lower wage than your male (equal) colleague? Sue him for dicrimination on gender. Somebody pinches your ass at work? Ask anybody who saw it to draw up a statement and file for sexual intimidation.... you claim someone raped you years ago? Get some evidence or, instead of dragging someone to court and losing your case, get professional help to try to accept and love yourself again.

My statement was answering the question about "don't most victims of rape remember every detail...".

Secondly, it's believe survivors, not just believe women. 

Thirdly, it was a job interview, not a criminal court case. 

Lastly, victims back in the eighties (especially victims in their teens) rarely came forward- even more so if it was a date rape situation. Look at all the adults who were raped by Cosby and how many of them kept that secret for decades. There is a great deal of misdirected blame and shame that goes along with acquaintance assault/rape and many victims are simply not going to handle it the way you are thinking you would handle it if it happened to you.

You also need to remember that decades ago, teens didn't have access to social media. Their support was family and a small circle of friends. Many individuals didn't feel comfortable talking about sexual assault with those groups. Awareness was also very different than it was years ago. Victims were more likely to feel isolated with the assault because they didn't know of others in the same situation. 

The psychology aspect is very complicated and rarely plays out like you imagine it should. 

[Deagan 608]

2 hours ago, Whispering said:

My statement was answering the question about "don't most victims of rape remember every detail...".

Secondly, it's believe survivors, not just believe women. 

Thirdly, it was a job interview, not a criminal court case. 

Lastly, victims back in the eighties (especially victims in their teens) rarely came forward- even more so if it was a date rape situation. Look at all the adults who were raped by Cosby and how many of them kept that secret for decades. There is a great deal of misdirected blame and shame that goes along with acquaintance assault/rape and many victims are simply not going to handle it the way you are thinking you would handle it if it happened to you.

You also need to remember that decades ago, teens didn't have access to social media. Their support was family and a small circle of friends. Many individuals didn't feel comfortable talking about sexual assault with those groups. Awareness was also very different than it was years ago. Victims were more likely to feel isolated with the assault because they didn't know of others in the same situation. 

The psychology aspect is very complicated and rarely plays out like you imagine it should. 

Regardless of gender, we shouldn't just "believe" survivors. 

Nobody should "just" believe anything.

Let's at least not make legal decisions on mere "believing".

Yes, historically, people didn't come forward. Which is largely due to not knowing what your rights are and knowing how people will respond. That is what we should teach people. How to use the law, how to use their social group.

This entire speech Gaga has basically implies that it's "scientifically" proven that someone was raped because she "believes"  someone "speaks the truth" and that statement "sounds like" a "logical memory" to have after being raped. No it's not. It's not scientifically proven at all, and we shouldn't just believe anybody that says something happened to them. "let me tell you why" -> psychology, scientific evidence, memories work like this, but not a single real argument for believing someone was given.

 

Let's just say her belief is not justified.

[Whispering 18,865]

8 hours ago, Deagan said:

Regardless of gender, we shouldn't just "believe" survivors. 

Nobody should "just" believe anything.

Let's at least not make legal decisions on mere "believing".

Yes, historically, people didn't come forward. Which is largely due to not knowing what your rights are and knowing how people will respond. That is what we should teach people. How to use the law, how to use their social group.

This entire speech Gaga has basically implies that it's "scientifically" proven that someone was raped because she "believes"  someone "speaks the truth" and that statement "sounds like" a "logical memory" to have after being raped. No it's not. It's not scientifically proven at all, and we shouldn't just believe anybody that says something happened to them. "let me tell you why" -> psychology, scientific evidence, memories work like this, but not a single real argument for believing someone was given.

 

Let's just say her belief is not justified.

That's what people do when they vote for or support politicians. Once again, this wasn't a legal decision, it was a job interview for a political position. 

Well, that and the fact that people know they will be blamed and shamed for an assault that happened TO them. It's confusing and scary, especially for a teenager. Education and awareness hasn't stopped people from victim blaming. Many victims blame themselves, have parents that will get angry with them or the abuser could be a member of the family and that makes it more complicated and confusing than it already is. 

Gaga didn't say science says what you are saying. Reread her words:

"If someone is assaulted or experiences trauma, there’s science and scientific proof – it’s biology – that people change. The brain changes. What it does is it takes the trauma and it puts it in a box and it files it away and shuts it so that we can survive the pain. And it also does a lot of other things. It can cause body pain. It can cause baseline elevations in anxiety. It can cause complete avoidance of not wanting to even remember or think about what happened to you."

She said there is scientific proof that trauma changes a person- it alters their brain chemistry. It can cause physical pain, anxiety and complete avoidance for years. Gaga is correct in stating that science has shown this happens to people who experience trauma. 

[Deagan 608]

On 10/9/2018 at 6:29 AM, Whispering said:

That's what people do when they vote for or support politicians. Once again, this wasn't a legal decision, it was a job interview for a political position. 

Well, that and the fact that people know they will be blamed and shamed for an assault that happened TO them. It's confusing and scary, especially for a teenager. Education and awareness hasn't stopped people from victim blaming. Many victims blame themselves, have parents that will get angry with them or the abuser could be a member of the family and that makes it more complicated and confusing than it already is. 

Gaga didn't say science says what you are saying. Reread her words:

"If someone is assaulted or experiences trauma, there’s science and scientific proof – it’s biology – that people change. The brain changes. What it does is it takes the trauma and it puts it in a box and it files it away and shuts it so that we can survive the pain. And it also does a lot of other things. It can cause body pain. It can cause baseline elevations in anxiety. It can cause complete avoidance of not wanting to even remember or think about what happened to you."

She said there is scientific proof that trauma changes a person- it alters their brain chemistry. It can cause physical pain, anxiety and complete avoidance for years. Gaga is correct in stating that science has shown this happens to people who experience trauma. 

Yes so she implies we can check this altered brain chemistry and tell if someone has experienced trauma. (find proof)

How about one opens that box first before you use it as an argument to believe people.

The entire thing was her explaining "why we need to believe it". Not just in this case. But in every case.

And that to me, is stupid logic.

[Thomas P 18,377]

On 10/6/2018 at 8:07 PM, Smother Em Eh said:

Uh yes yes I am serious. How tho? And I never ever said I supported Trump. Yeah but honestly anyone can come out and say they were sexually assaulted. I know that does sound quite insensitive of me to say, but it’s true. One thing I actually really find off about this whole thing is that she seems off. She can barely remember what happened 1 month ago, nonetheless 36 years ago. Don’t most victims of rape remember every darn detail of who, what, & where it happend to them? I wasn’t really on anyone’s side on this whole thing, Dr Fords or Kavanaughs I was in the middle and still am. So don’t even try to throw the “You support Trump” card like so many people on this site do. 

......

this sounds like a conversation I have already had with my grandmother, so I don’t wanna fight, but I figured on a site dedicated to Lady Gaga, I might actually be able to find more likeminded people...