Bebe 16,562 Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 12 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said: I do underestimate the importance and effect of art and the media in our culture but that would never make me want to change or repress an artistic expression.. Art and culture both mirror each other and sometimes art make us look at our true ugly self. What I would have a problem with is art and media that is driven by propaganda to create certain things but free art should always be left the way it is regardless of its effect on culture. But nobody is suggesting we repress or change art  This is a strawman argument. You are attacking me on a position I don't hold. "Art and culture both mirror each other and sometimes art make us look at our true ugly self." Sure and it's nice when we recognise that and go "Oh hold up, the message we are being sent in this work is messed up and kind of reflects and adds to this culture that is messed up" Nobody is suggesting anybody change P!nk's work - I am criticising the messages it sends. We should aim to think about and critique all messages we receive in art and the media. Let me suggest a horrific and exaggerated idea for a short film I might make up: In this film, the world is a Utopia. Technology is advanced, there is no poverty, crime rates are low and everyone is well educated. The problem is that in this film, the male characters are in authority and use rape as a behavioural deterrent. It's presented that this use of rape is what keeps people in line and makes society so great. I'm sure you would agree that this would be a very problematic film. It would send some pretty awful messages about sexual violence and it's effects. A film like that should be criticised, the message it sends should be criticised, we should criticise the sort of messages we exposed to. It's our responsibility. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to release such a film, it means that people should be critical of its message and the effect this message could have on the culture at large.  Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm 879 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 32 minutes ago, Bebe said: But nobody is suggesting we repress or change art  This is a strawman argument. You are attacking me on a position I don't hold. "Art and culture both mirror each other and sometimes art make us look at our true ugly self." Sure and it's nice when we recognise that and go "Oh hold up, the message we are being sent in this work is messed up and kind of reflects and adds to this culture that is messed up" Nobody is suggesting anybody change P!nk's work - I am criticising the messages it sends. We should aim to think about and critique all messages we receive in art and the media. Let me suggest a horrific and exaggerated idea for a short film I might make up: In this film, the world is a Utopia. Technology is advanced, there is no poverty, crime rates are low and everyone is well educated. The problem is that in this film, the male characters are in authority and use rape as a behavioural deterrent. It's presented that this use of rape is what keeps people in line and makes society so great. I'm sure you would agree that this would be a very problematic film. It would send some pretty awful messages about sexual violence and it's effects. A film like that should be criticised, the message it sends should be criticised, we should criticise the sort of messages we exposed to. It's our responsibility. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to release such a film, it means that people should be critical of its message and the effect this message could have on the culture at large.  You dont want to repress art by law but you do want to do so by cultural pressure witch you have every right to do so, im just giving my opinion on it.. We shouldnt look at pinks art for example and think the message we are being sent is messed up and adds to this culture that is messed up, we should instead ask ourselves why is this part of our culture and how we can change it but not by criticizing art because we should encourage this kind of art that made us look at ourselves or inside an individual mind or maybe a group of people. I only criticize art that has a agenda propaganda behind it thats not authentic. The film idea you gave is horrible because there is no reason to do it.. its just a movie of people being raped! there is many independent british movies that are about rape and child molestation in a very disturbing way but there is a reason behind these movies and a message thats not always positive but its not just random like the movie you mentioned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 16,562 Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 1 hour ago, faysalaaa1 said: You dont want to repress art by law but you do want to do so by cultural pressure witch you have every right to do so, im just giving my opinion on it.. We shouldnt look at pinks art for example and think the message we are being sent is messed up and adds to this culture that is messed up, we should instead ask ourselves why is this part of our culture and how we can change it but not by criticizing art because we should encourage this kind of art that made us look at ourselves or inside an individual mind or maybe a group of people. I only criticize art that has a agenda propaganda behind it thats not authentic. The film idea you gave is horrible because there is no reason to do it.. its just a movie of people being raped! there is many independent british movies that are about rape and child molestation in a very disturbing way but there is a reason behind these movies and a message thats not always positive but its not just random like the movie you mentioned. I really don't want to repress any art by law or by cultural pressure I just want people to be more critical of the media they consume and I want content creators to be more cautious of what they create and the messages they want to send. There would be a reason to make my film! It's about society, it's about what society could look like, it makes a statement about violence and it makes a statement on authority and population control  I wouldn't want to make it - the message behind it isn't something I support - but clearly you do have an issue with it and would want to criticise it right? I don't see any issue with criticising P!nk's portrayal of domestic violence, we both wouldn't see an issue with criticising my hypothetical movie and it's depictions of sexual violence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sizzily 14,543 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 You're right. All of a sudden abuse is fine when its played for laughs and directed towards a guy. But its really nothing knew. One Banned Boi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm 879 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 50 minutes ago, Bebe said: I really don't want to repress any art by law or by cultural pressure I just want people to be more critical of the media they consume and I want content creators to be more cautious of what they create and the messages they want to send. There would be a reason to make my film! It's about society, it's about what society could look like, it makes a statement about violence and it makes a statement on authority and population control  I wouldn't want to make it - the message behind it isn't something I support - but clearly you do have an issue with it and would want to criticise it right? I don't see any issue with criticising P!nk's portrayal of domestic violence, we both wouldn't see an issue with criticising my hypothetical movie and it's depictions of sexual violence. My end point is I wouldnt criticize any art for the effect it will do to society, I only criticize art for what it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 16,562 Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 2 hours ago, faysalaaa1 said: My end point is I wouldnt criticize any art for the effect it will do to society, I only criticize art for what it is. You are confusing what I am doing. I am criticising the art for what it is - the reason I am doing this is because art has an effect on society. When I criticise P!nk's videos, I am critiquing the ideas held within her videos. I'm critiquing how domestic violence is represented, i'm critiquing the ideas of relationships and domestic violence that are present within the work. Art both informs our culture and is influenced by our culture. It would be impossible and pointless to critique art if it didn't - it would also make art pointless and meaningless. Art has no meaning if it doesn't contain ideas, and the ideas art contain are influenced by our culture and also inform our culture. I am criticising P!nk's videos because of the meaning and messages the works have. This critique of the work is important because of arts impact on culture. Don't confuse the explanation of WHY my critique of P!nk's work is important as the critique itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm 879 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Bebe said: You are confusing what I am doing. I am criticising the art for what it is - the reason I am doing this is because art has an effect on society. I am criticising P!nk's videos because of the meaning and messages the works have. This critique of the work is important because of arts impact on culture Art does not effect society, society effect art and we see society expressed through art.. only art with propaganda and agenda that is pushed by the media and big companies has an effect on society. I disagree that we should criticize art on how it effects society, we should judge art by its authenticity and look at it as a self expression of an individual and not by its effect on society.. if society relate to it and is effected then thats because society is already effected by whatever is in that art and all art did is exposed that to the world. If you criticize the art itself and leaving the root cause of the problem, you wont change the problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 16,562 Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 Just now, faysalaaa1 said: Art does not effect society, society effect art and we see society expressed through art.. only art with propaganda and agenda that is pushed by the media and big companies has an effect on society. I disagree that we should criticize art on how it effects society, we should judge art by its authenticity and look at it as a self expression of an individual and not by its effect on society.. if society relate to it and is effected then thats because society is already effected by whatever is in that art and all art did is exposed that to the world. If you criticize the art itself and leaving the root cause of the problem, you wont change the problem. Art and media absolutely effects society. It's a two way street. Media and art both inform society and reflect society. Why do you think art and media only influence our culture when it is pushed by government propaganda or big companies? Once again you are confusing the explanation of WHY my critique of P!nk's work is important as the critique itself. When I criticise P!nk's videos, I am critiquing the ideas held within her videos. I'm critiquing how domestic violence is represented, i'm critiquing the ideas of relationships and domestic violence that are present within the work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runway 27,876 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Her lyrics in Try are so truthful Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 16,562 Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 4 minutes ago, Runway said: Her lyrics in Try are so truthful Agreed, Try is a beautiful song with beautiful lyrics. In the context of the video where the dance routine is depicting violence between lovers though, I'm not sure that the lyrics are super appropriate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberryBlond 13,173 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 I can totally get what you're saying. I think she doesn't mean it as seriously as she says in her lyrics, though. She sometimes just says what some people are thinking in their head. "I want to slap you in your whole face," is a line some of us consider in our minds but never actually do. The thought in itself isn't even serious. She's just talking aloud. But of course, she can get away with this easier because she's a woman. If a man talked about wanting to slap his female partner, there'd be an awkward silence. But when a woman says it, it's funny and not serious. It's an issue that really needs to be addressed in this society because there's can't be a double standard. I never thought much of it when a woman said it but these days, I really think twice about it. Domestic abuse is not funny or acceptable when it's happening to either gender and when we give women a free pass to joke about it, we're not helping things to get better. But I sometimes think what Pink is talking about is simply disagreements a couple go through. She just chooses to put it out in a more aggressive way than most female singers. But the more you talk about it, the more I see that her messages could be misconstrued by those in an abuse relationship. I mean, I love the lyrics in Try, but only if they're pertaining to a couple who are having regular ups and downs. I wouldn't like to think that someone trapped in an abusive relationship is listening to this song and thinking: "Yeah, it's totally normal for couples to physically fight and it's just something I need to get past." But at the same time, is Pink responsible if anyone misunderstands the messages in her songs and is inspired in a way that she didn't intend? It's a tricky thing. It's just like all those debates about "Does music affect us?" Yes, it does, but should that mean that we shouldn't make music that's a bit controversial at times, for the sake of being totally PC? It's a tough choice for any creative mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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