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Biden disses Hillary: "I never thought she was a great candidate"

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Whispering   Paws Up 12,569
Whispering
Just now, Bebe said:

"Re-election was against Romney" true I got mixed up. He was hardly an anti-establishment candidate though - he took big money, he had his super pacs, he'd been in politics since 1994.

"Obama wasn't ant-establishment, but he was seen as progressive in many ways" No he wasn't anti-establishment at all but that's how he was seen in the 2008 election: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/02/us/politics/obama-cleared-way-for-todays-outsider-candidates.html


"Look how the "anti-establishment" is turning out so far." I've never thought Trump was the right choice  I don't think many anti-establishment progressives thought so either. Even the alt-right that propelled him into office did so believing he would 'drain the swamp' and so on - breaking promises he made to them hasn't made them feel like those issues are no longer important, it's just made them angrier.

Anti-establishment =/= inexperienced. Bernie Sanders is America's longest-serving independent politician in Congress, he is basically a career politician. Issues such as money in politics are still major issues for people though, look the recent controversy over Obama taking money from Wall Street. That was a controversy for progressives.

On the right, even despite Trump breaking his promises and failing to 'drain the swamp' anti-establishment feelings run high. I mean - all you need to do is look at the 'Fake News' comments directed at the establishment media. Wrong or right, the feelings are there. His support among Republican voters is still at 86% far higher than Establishment Republican leaders in Congress:
 http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-among-republicans-trump-more-popular-1487793074-htmlstory.html 

Trump isn't making establishment politicians popular. Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country right now. Anti-Establishment Democrats still have their major issues with the Establishment Democrats and anti-establishment Republicans still have their issues.

http://www.salon.com/2017/03/23/bernie-sanders-has-become-the-most-popular-politician-in-america-with-no-help-from-the-inside/

Hopefully the U.S doesn't vote for someone as inexperienced and incapable as Donald Trump, but he was hardly the first choice for anti-establishment progressives and anti-establishment republicans not only support Trump overwhelmingly, but their biggest gripes with him is when he betrays his populist and anti-establishment promises.

Everyone is going to take big money in the general election..even the precious Bernie, if he ever gets there. It takes a billion dollars to run a general election campaign, you have to rely on big money donors and Super PACS. Romney was a one term governor, not enough to look at him as some long term established politician. His whole attraction was that he was a businessman who could help with the economy. (remember, we were just four years past the housing crisis and still in the downturn)

Obama was a fresh, young face, full of hope for the future...for an America that could get past racial divides, etc. 

Trump was most definitely seen as anti-establishment. Anti-establishment isn't just a left wing, progressive idea. 

Congress? Congress always has **** approval ratings! The eighty six per cent approval rating from Republicans for Trump just means they still hate Democrats enough to say they are okay with an idiot in charge. It's more about winning and hating the liberals than liking anything Trump is doing. 

Labeling everything "Fake News" isn't about anti-establishment feelings. It is about Fox News having their loyalists convinced that they are the real news and everything else is fake. It is pure propaganda. 

I never said he was. I stated that depending on how things play out over the next two years, people may gravitate back to someone with more experience and prepared. Its up in the air, depending on various factors. They may not want to try another "why not" type person for awhile. Or....impeachment can make voters feel sorry for a President. Clinton's approval ratings went up after he went through impeachment. If impeachment doesn't lead to getting thrown out of office, it could be that Trump could be seen as a sympathetic character. It's a long road...we could end up anywhere. 

 

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JosephH   Paws Up 669
JosephH

Well his opinion isn't off key. 

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FATCAT   Paws Up 24,752
FATCAT
4 hours ago, gagagoogoose said:

THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU RUN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2016? (Wendy William gif)

His son passed away, have some comapsion..

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Bebe   Paws Up 11,415
Bebe
30 minutes ago, Whispering said:

Everyone is going to take big money in the general election..even the precious Bernie, if he ever gets there. It takes a billion dollars to run a general election campaign, you have to rely on big money donors and Super PACS. Romney was a one term governor, not enough to look at him as some long term established politician. His whole attraction was that he was a businessman who could help with the economy. (remember, we were just four years past the housing crisis and still in the downturn)

Obama was a fresh, young face, full of hope for the future...for an America that could get past racial divides, etc. 

Trump was most definitely seen as anti-establishment. Anti-establishment isn't just a left wing, progressive idea. 

Congress? Congress always has **** approval ratings! The eighty six per cent approval rating from Republicans for Trump just means they still hate Democrats enough to say they are okay with an idiot in charge. It's more about winning and hating the liberals than liking anything Trump is doing. 

Labeling everything "Fake News" isn't about anti-establishment feelings. It is about Fox News having their loyalists convinced that they are the real news and everything else is fake. It is pure propaganda. 

I never said he was. I stated that depending on how things play out over the next two years, people may gravitate back to someone with more experience and prepared. Its up in the air, depending on various factors. They may not want to try another "why not" type person for awhile. Or....impeachment can make voters feel sorry for a President. Clinton's approval ratings went up after he went through impeachment. If impeachment doesn't lead to getting thrown out of office, it could be that Trump could be seen as a sympathetic character. It's a long road...we could end up anywhere. 

 

"Everyone is going to take big money in the general election..even the precious Bernie, if he ever gets there." I highly doubt that :smh: He was doing pretty well with his small donors, he was outraising Hillary Clinton.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/21/politics/2016-bernie-sanders-fundraising-hillary-clinton/

This is the man who rejected even speaking to Wall Street for free. Why would he take their money? It was totally against his policy, he constantly rejected big money in the primary and his campaign was built upon the fact that it was built from small donors and that he took no big money. His entire campaign would have collapsed if he had taken money from Wall Street. The entire premise of his campaign would have fallen to pieces, it just wouldn't make any sense strategically and would go against everything he has stood for his entire career. 

"Romney was a one term governor, not enough to look at him as some long term established politician. His whole attraction was that he was a businessman who could help with the economy" What exactly do you think his anti-establishment policies where? There is a difference between being an established or unestablished politician and being an establishment or anti-establishment candidate.

"Obama was a fresh, young face, full of hope for the future...for an America that could get past racial divides, etc. " Yes?

"Trump was most definitely seen as anti-establishment. Anti-establishment isn't just a left wing, progressive idea. " Also yes? Obviously Trump is anti-establishment :smh: I wouldn't, and haven't, claimed anything contrary to that.


"Congress? Congress always has **** approval ratings! The eighty six per cent approval rating from Republicans for Trump just means they still hate Democrats enough to say they are okay with an idiot in charge. It's more about winning and hating the liberals than liking anything Trump is doing. "

Then you haven't spent any time on right wing sites :shrug: There is NO Republican politician who is more popular with republican voters than Trump. None. 

"Labeling everything "Fake News" isn't about anti-establishment feelings. It is about Fox News having their loyalists convinced that they are the real news and everything else is fake. It is pure propaganda. "

Of course it's pure propaganda, but it's fueling anti-establishment feelings. They are saying the Wall Street Journal, CNN etc. are just wings from the Democratic establishment... They are talking about the 'Deep State'... This isn't building trust in establishment politicians on the right.

"I never said he was. I stated that depending on how things play out over the next two years, people may gravitate back to someone with more experience and prepared. Its up in the air, depending on various factors. They may not want to try another "why not" type person for awhile"

But like I've said anti-establishment =/= inexperienced. Sanders and Warren are two of the most anti-establishment Democrats in the country and they are also two of the most popular. They are not as underqualified or incompetent as someone like Trump. 

We continue to see the success of anti-establishment candidates in both parties. 

By 2020 progressive, anti-establishment candidates will still  want free and fair elections  -  free from the corruption of big money donors, they will still want to re-regulate wall street, they will still want to end corporate tax dodging, they will still want the minimum wage to be a livable wage, they will still want to see a climate change revolution, they will still want to ensure universal healthcare and education as a right.

In fact, they would see Donald Trump as at least as much of a threat, if not more of a threat, to that than any establishment Democrat or Republican. It's only energizing the base.

Republicans haven't shown any buyer's remorse when it comes to Trump and anti-establishment Republicans will no doubt still want to 'drain the swamp'. Smaller alt-right sites like Breitbart and major news organisations like Fox News peddling constant conspiracies about how the Establishment and Deep State is out to get Trump isn't building confidence in establishment candidates on their side either.

Of course we don't know what will happen in 2020 - it's ages away, but this anti-establishment wave doesn't seem to be slowing down and the most popular politicians on both sides are anti-establishment figures. So I'll stand by what I originally said, I think if a figure like Obama or Biden took part in the last Democratic primary against Bernie they would have faced the same criticisms and I would think, at this stage, that establishment candidates would have a difficult time in 2020 too.

Edited by Bebe
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Adakam   Paws Up 1,618
Adakam

Noone did, but compared to the cheeto, she was the best by a billion years

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Whispering   Paws Up 12,569
Whispering
21 hours ago, Bebe said:

"Everyone is going to take big money in the general election..even the precious Bernie, if he ever gets there." I highly doubt that :smh: He was doing pretty well with his small donors, he was outraising Hillary Clinton.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/21/politics/2016-bernie-sanders-fundraising-hillary-clinton/

This is the man who rejected even speaking to Wall Street for free. Why would he take their money?

"Romney was a one term governor, not enough to look at him as some long term established politician. His whole attraction was that he was a businessman who could help with the economy" What exactly do you think his anti-establishment policies where? There is a difference between being an established or unestablished politician and being an establishment or anti-establishment candidate.

"Obama was a fresh, young face, full of hope for the future...for an America that could get past racial divides, etc. " Yes?

"Trump was most definitely seen as anti-establishment. Anti-establishment isn't just a left wing, progressive idea. " Also yes? Obviously Trump is anti-establishment :smh: I wouldn't, and haven't, claimed anything contrary to that.


"Congress? Congress always has **** approval ratings! The eighty six per cent approval rating from Republicans for Trump just means they still hate Democrats enough to say they are okay with an idiot in charge. It's more about winning and hating the liberals than liking anything Trump is doing. "

Then you haven't spent any time on right wing sites  There is NO Republican politician who is more popular with republican voters than Trump. None. 

"Labeling everything "Fake News" isn't about anti-establishment feelings. It is about Fox News having their loyalists convinced that they are the real news and everything else is fake. It is pure propaganda. "

Of course it's pure propaganda, but it's fueling anti-establishment feelings. They are saying the Wall Street Journal, CNN etc. are just wings from the Democratic establishment... They are talking about the 'Deep State'... This isn't building trust in establishment politicians on the right.

"I never said he was. I stated that depending on how things play out over the next two years, people may gravitate back to someone with more experience and prepared. Its up in the air, depending on various factors. They may not want to try another "why not" type person for awhile"

But like I've said anti-establishment =/= inexperienced. Sanders and Warren are two of the most anti-establishment Democrats in the country and they are also two of the most popular. They are not as underqualified or incompetent as someone like Trump. 

We continue to see the success of anti-establishment candidates in both parties. 

By 2020 progressive, anti-establishment candidates will still  want free and fair elections  -  free from the corruption of big money donors, they will still want to re-regulate wall street, they will still want to end corporate tax dodging, they will still want the minimum wage to be a livable wage, they will still want to see a climate change revolution, they will still want to ensure universal healthcare and education as a right.

In fact, they would see Donald Trump as at least as much of a threat, if not more of a threat, to that than any establishment Democrat or Republican. It's only energizing the base.

Republicans haven't shown any buyer's remorse when it comes to Trump and anti-establishment Republicans will no doubt still want to 'drain the swamp'. Smaller alt-right sites like Breitbart and major news organisations like Fox News peddling constant conspiracies about how the Establishment and Deep State is out to get Trump isn't building confidence in establishment candidates on their side either.

Of course we don't know what will happen in 2020 - it's ages away, but this anti-establishment wave doesn't seem to be slowing down and the most popular politicians on both sides are anti-establishment figures. So I'll stand by what I originally said, I think if a figure like Obama or Biden took part in the last Democratic primary against Bernie they would have faced the same criticisms and I would think, at this stage, that establishment candidates would have a difficult time in 2020 too.

Again, a billion dollars. If he ever gets to the general, he will have to get big money donors and use Super PACS.

I don't have to spend time on right wing web sites, I live in one of the reddest states in the country. I have members of my family, neighbors, friends, people I work with who are lifetime Republicans and voted for Trump. I don't get my impressions of Republicans from a bunch of nuts that hang out on right wing sites all day. 

The country has become unbelievably partisan, along with the government, over the course of the last few elections. Trump has a high approval rating with Republicans for various reasons. First, many Republicans now call themselves Independents, especially since the Tea Party takeover. Secondly, it is a vote against liberals...saying that you are for Trump, says that you are against those liberals. Third, people don't want to admit they were stupid to vote for an idiot...yet. Lol Lastly, there will be about fifty per cent that will stick with Trump even if he is thrown out of office. (they will believe it was a conspiracy) 

Eh, they just think that anything mainstream is liberal. I mean, it kind of always has been, but Fox News took it to extremes...to the point of straight up propaganda. There is a need for more conservative media, but not to the extreme that Fox News has gone. 

Sanders isn't a Democrat, Warren is.  Never said either of them were under qualified or incompetent. 

Many of the items you listed are liberal and progressive, but not anti-establishment. Presidents and candidates have been pushing for universal healthcare for decades now. Obama compromised and went with Romneycare. Hillary Clinton tried to push through a version of Universal Health Care as First Lady. Democratic politicians are pushing for free tuition for community colleges and some state schools. You just have to be careful that you don't put an undue burden on poor states. Democrats are against Citizens United, cutting taxes on the wealthy and for increased minimum wage. These are hardly against the establishment of the Democratic Party. 

People who follow Brietbart and Fox News will never vote for a Democrat, liberal or progressive. The next election will be about getting the Democratic base to get out to vote and getting the true Independent voters to swing for a Dem instead of staying home. Trump really and truly could go shoot someone out on the street and those Brietbart folks and his followers would just come out for him harder! Those people are not even a consideration for a different vote. 

We will see...if so, I look forward to seeing Oprah or The Rock run for President! :) 

Edited by Whispering
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ItsTommyBitch   Paws Up 7,656
ItsTommyBitch

Kind of unnecessary :gum: That's all

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Benji   Paws Up 12,414
Benji

I mean he's right, but he didn't need to say it.

Hillary would have been a good president but she's hard to connect with which was only amplified by the mismanagement of her campaign. Instead of making it very clear how good a president she would be, the focus was on how bad Trump would be which only fed into into the media frenzy that helped him to be elected.

51 minutes ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

Kind of unnecessary :gum: That's all

100% agree

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M Monstre   Paws Up 17,341
M Monstre

Some of y'all with this "She's such a terrible candidate" thing..

We got Donald Trump. Are you happy?

I hate this attitude of "Well they're both bad candidates so I'm not going to vote, or support either one of them". It's literally the stupidest thing ever. I'm sorry, but that's just how our country is. They were the two majority candidates in the election and if you didn't like them, then vote or support a third party, but to say "Oh they're both bad so I'm just not going to vote/support either one of them" is like throwing away your democracy. 

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En_Sabah_Nur   Paws Up 6,643
En_Sabah_Nur
On 5/20/2017 at 9:32 AM, M Monstre said:

Some of y'all with this "She's such a terrible candidate" thing..

We got Donald Trump. Are you happy?

I hate this attitude of "Well they're both bad candidates so I'm not going to vote, or support either one of them". It's literally the stupidest thing ever. I'm sorry, but that's just how our country is. They were the two majority candidates in the election and if you didn't like them, then vote or support a third party, but to say "Oh they're both bad so I'm just not going to vote/support either one of them" is like throwing away your democracy. 

Or voting for a DEAD Ape...  :awkney:

 

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